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Topic: Manitoba Hydro and the NDP
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fisherboy

2/10/2017 11:36:16 AM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
Manitoba Hydro and the NDP

Well it looks like Mr. Selinger with his government's decision to expand generation capacity with the Keeyask dam and bipole 3 construction has sunk all Manitobans into unparalleled debt for generations to come. Anyone care to comment?

belzebob

2/10/2017 12:00:41 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
Manitoba hydro and the ndp

I do not have access to hydro's financial books. if anyone does I would like to see the numbers.  
 
I will agree that the path for the bi-pole line was a mistake, but that is not the total issue.  
 
the hydro "rainy day" fund was drained by Mr. Filmon to balance his budgets. that is a fact. if that money had been left alone hydro would not be in the condition it is now.  
 
that money was to be used for future expansion and as an emergency fund. it should not of been used as general revenue.  
 
while I do not agree with all the NDP's policies, blaming them for the hydro mess is not correct

fisherboy

2/10/2017 12:07:55 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
Agreed

But it was the NDP's decision to move forward with these projects contrary to many experts saying it was not needed.

ultraguy

2/10/2017 12:09:47 PM
Member since:
Jul 2005
Total posts:1046
.

Annual report: https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/ar/2015/annual_report_2015.shtml  
 
I think the days of cheap hydro are almost over.

belzebob

2/10/2017 12:16:58 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
hydro

I should of made my question clearer.  
 
I did not want the present financial report.  
 
I am interested in what the value was of that fund when Filmon came into power and how much was left when he was voted out.  
 
adding even minimal interest rates, how much would be in it today?  
 
He did the same thing to the government employees pension fund and it is also grossly underfunded now.

loeog

2/10/2017 12:39:08 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:689
NDP drain rainy day fund

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/outgoing-ndp-govt-drains-rainy-day-fund-applies-to-debt-377287571.html  
 
The truth hurts  
In one of its last acts in government, Greg Selinger's cabinet passed an order Friday to drain $105 million from the province's rainy-day fund and apply the money to the province's debt.  
 
An order in council just posted on the government's website authorizes the minister of finance to transfer the cash from the province's Fiscal Stabilization Account. The account was established by the Filmon Tories to be drawn upon in tough economic times.  
According to budget documents, the withdrawal would leave the account with just $115 million. In 2011, it had more than half a billion dollars.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2017-02-10 12:43:43

belzebob

2/10/2017 1:07:50 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
hydro

nice try loeog  
 
that was money form the provincial stabilization account and applied to provincial debt.  
 
it was not used to balance a budget.  
 
btw this conversation has been about the Hydro accounts not the provincial emergency fund.

ren008

2/10/2017 1:35:10 PM
Member since:
Jun 2011
Total posts:213
Sad

About the only thing left MB had going for it was nice dirt cheap hydro vs other places.  
 
Feel bad for anyone with electric heat in the coming years...

loeog

2/10/2017 1:40:37 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:689
Sure

The NDP couldn''t use it to balance the budget!!  
The NDP yearly over spending was in the BILLION dollar range. The high was 1.6 Billion over.  
Your right, They couldn''t use it to balance the budget because it wasn''t large enough.  
 
I should also add that the Filmon government created it and was adding 110 million a year to that account. They should have called it the NDP spending account.  
 
In addition to the Fiscal Stabiization account, the PC''s also started the Debt retirement account and the silly conservatives also started to manage the underfunded pension accounts. Not that managing money wisely has anything to do with the mess of today!!!  
 
Sadly, true NDP supporters will blame the government of 1995 for all the government misspending and not the mismanagement that the SpeNDP government and its appointments to crown companies have made.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2017-02-10 13:41:54

fisherboy

2/10/2017 1:44:48 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
How will we be affected?

All Manitobans will be certainly affected. Just look at Ontario where some families don't know which monthly bill to pay, rent/mortgage, grocery bill or their hydro account.  
 
Now granted we are not at the same price per kw as Ontario but our rates must and will increase (probably to shocking levels) pardon the pun.

belzebob

2/10/2017 2:34:20 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
loeog

I will try this one more time.  
 
we were not talking about the provinces general revenue.  
 
the fact is the mess that hydro is in was caused by filmon draining the hydro funds for expansion and energencies to balance his budget. no matter what spin you want to put on it those are the facts.  
 
I stated in one of the first posts I did not agree with a lot of the ndp's policies, but most of the fiscal mess hydro now finds itself in rests at the feet of mr Filmon.  
 
 
to claim that filmon funded the government employee pension fund is beyond ludicrous. he drained money off of it also to balance his budgets.  
 
I know because I worked for the province at the time

belzebob

2/10/2017 2:39:45 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
how will we be affected

fisherboy.  
 
if you remember one of the first things that happened before the privatization of MTS was an employee firing.  
 
make the corporation a lean machine attractive to private companies.  
 
perhaps what is in store for hydro?  
 
I do not believe ANY government elected to a 4 year term has the right to sell off a crown corporation that has taken generations of taxpayer money to fund.  
 
but we can fight it.  
 
I suggest a class action suit forcing the government to make it an election issue or they cannot do it for the length of their term.

fisherboy

2/10/2017 2:44:11 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
So

the NDP's choice to expand generation capacity c/w bi-pole 3 at a time did not create the mess of thousand of millions of dollars of debt? Yes the PC's and Ndp have both mismanaged the affairs but how does this add up to billions. Also Hydro's debt could reach a unmanageable 23 billion in 5 years. I can see only one way out and that would be privatization.

fisherboy

2/10/2017 2:51:07 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
Unless

the ratepayers start addressing the debt immediately. How about a monthly surcharge say $30 for each Natural gas meter. At 277,000 services that is a lot of cash in a 12 month period of approximately $100 million.

belzebob

2/10/2017 2:51:54 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
hydro.

there are options instead of privatization.  
 
I would be willing to pay higher rates to a crown corporation. I have electric heat.  
 
but I do not want to pay higher rates to a private company so that Mr Pallister can get a seat on it's board after he is voted out.  
 
pretty much the same as Mr. Filomon did.  
 
what about wind farms and solar?  
 
how many days a year is it not windy in Manitoba and since the province appropriated the land around the power lines, why not fill it with solar panels.

fisherboy

2/10/2017 2:57:01 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
Mb Hydro

does not need to increase generating capacity...they have over built. That is why hydro just layed off 900 employees. They are broke. Also Wuskwatim was not required to be built.

belzebob

2/10/2017 3:02:24 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
hydro

we over-generate for our provincial use.  
 
our excess hydro can be and is sold to the americans.  
 
if we took down some of our provincial trade barriers we could also export to provincial neighbors

ultraguy

2/10/2017 3:33:26 PM
Member since:
Jul 2005
Total posts:1046
.

  
fisherboy said "does not need to increase generating capacity...they have over built. That is why hydro just layed off 900 employees. They are broke. Also Wuskwatim was not required to be built. "

Nobody has been laid off.

loeog

2/10/2017 3:50:07 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:689
Let's not forget

The 25 BILLION dollar debt was a hair brained NDP idea based on us selling America power companies electricity at dirt cheap prices. The American companies then mark up the electricity 10 fold and sell it to their customers.  
 
The result is, we the citizens of Manitoba are now going to get double digit increases for the next 5 years.  
 
We will soon be paying twice the amount we presently pay so people in the USA can have cheap power.  
 
SADLY, the American Power companies signed 30+ year agreements. No risk for them and all the risk to us.  
 
NICE JOB.  
Sadly, the hydro appointments that made these NDP deals have all received the golden handshake. But what does a million dollar retirement deal have to do with anything when we are talking BILLIONS.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2017-02-10 15:51:31

belzebob

2/10/2017 4:12:37 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
current contracts for power supply

from the hydro web page.  
 
just incase some of you think we did not need to expand generation.  
 
Power sale arrangement with Wisconsin Public Service  
 
On February 28, 2014, we signed two major power sales with Wisconsin Public Service:  
1.108 megawatts (MW) of firm power from 2016–2021;  
2.308 MW of firm power for up to 10 years, starting in 2027.  
 
These sales will use some of the electrical capacity from the proposed Keeyask and Conawapa generating stations. The 308 MW sale will also require the new 500,000-volt Manitoba–Minnesota transmission line, currently in the planning stages.  
 
News Release: Two New Power Deals Signed with Wisconsin Public Service.  
 
On May 25, 2011, we announced an agreement with Wisconsin Public Service for the sale of 100 MW of electricity over the period from 2021–2026.  
 
Power purchase agreement with Minnesota Power  
 
On May 25, 2011, we announced an agreement with Minnesota Power for the sale of 250 megawatts of electricity over a 15-year period, beginning in 2020.  
 
The sale, along with one to Wisconsin Public Service, will require the construction of new hydroelectric generating capacity in Manitoba, triggering the development of the 695 MW Keeyask Generating Station.  
 
For more details, see the Province of Manitoba news release.  
 
Power purchase agreement extension with Xcel Energy  
 
We have enhanced and extended by 10 years a significant power purchase agreement worth close to $3 billion.  
 
Under the agreement, Northern States Power (part of Xcel Energy) will purchase between 375 and 500 megawatts of power from Manitoba Hydro. The 2 corporations have had a series of power sales agreements over the years, dating back to the early 1970s.  
 
The renewed power sale starts in 2015 and will extend contracts through 2025.  
 
For more details, see the Province of Manitoba news release.  
 
Power sale extension with Great River Energy  
 
On October 24, 2013, we signed a 200-megawatt seasonal diversity exchange with Great River Energy of Minnesota that runs until 2030.  
 
The new agreement extends a 150-megawatt arrangement that has been in place between the two utilities since 1995.  
 
Seasonal diversity exchanges take advantage of the fact that Manitoba Hydro's load peaks during winter, due to heating demand. Most U.S. utilities experience their peak loads in the summer, due to higher air conditioning use.  
 
The diversity exchange means Manitoba Hydro will provide 200 megawatts of renewable hydroelectric capacity to Great River Energy in the summer to meet their energy needs, while Great River Energy will provide Hydro with 200 megawatts of capacity during the winter.  
 
Power sale arrangement with SaskPower  
 
On January 29, 2016 Manitoba Hydro signed a 20-year agreement to sell 100 megawatts of renewable hydroelectricity to SaskPower, starting in 2020. The sale will require 18 per cent of the energy from the under-construction Keeyask Generating Station on the lower Nelson River. The sale will require the construction of a new 80-kilometre 230,000-volt transmission line in western Manitoba between Birtle, Manitoba, and Tantallon, Saskatchewan, to ensure energy deliveries can occur under all conditions.  
 
The signing of the definitive agreement follows up on a term sheet that was signed in June of 2015. For more details, read the news release on the Government of Manitoba website.  
 
Previously Manitoba Hydro entered into another short term firm sales agreement with SaskPower for 25-megawatts of electricity that commenced in November 2015 and runs to May 2022. For more details, see our news release.  
 
These two sale agreements build on a longstanding mutually beneficial relationship. Both corporations have also signed a Memorandum of Understanding which includes exploring the potential to further increase the transmission transfer capacity between the provinces to enable additional purchases by SaskPower of up to 500 MW. For more details, see the Province of  
 
since these contracts cannot be broken, we either expanded generation or we could be freezing to death in the dark in winter

fisherboy

2/10/2017 4:47:54 PM
Member since:
Feb 2012
Total posts:8
Bezlebob pls read

Runaway capital expenditure and operating costs: Bipole III coming in at over $4.6 billion with  
future operating costs projected at over $1 million per day [$385 million p.a.]. These Bipole III annual  
running costs, projected to be $4 billion over 10 years, will not be offset by any related revenues!:  
Wuskwatim overbuild costs, with ongoing losses at $140 million p.a. along with first nations ‘equity’  
partnership charges at $14 million p.a., in perpetuity: Conawapa with absolutely no requirement in  
the foreseeable future, to cost at least $10.7 billion and Keeyask, costing $6.5 billion, not needed at  
least until 2030/31, by which time it could prove to be a white elephant.  
 
The above is info from Manitoba Forward a think tank commenting on the "true state" of Mb Hydro contracts and activities.

loeog

2/10/2017 4:51:18 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:689
Great post

If I understand your post, it suggests The management team of Hydro dropped near 40 BILLION to generate 3 BIllion in new sales plus standing agreements.  
 
I suspect you are correct about Power outages for Manitoban''s, the American power companies would probably sue Manitoba Hydro if they shut down the USA directed power during high demand times.  
 
This problem is so large that the credit rating companies have lowered the provinces credit rating. They believe Manitoba Hydro might default on their payments and believe the province will be held liable.  
 
Sounds like a tax increase to covered the higher interest rates on the debt are also on the way.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2017-02-10 16:53:42

belzebob

2/10/2017 5:37:20 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
fisherboy

I do agree that bipole 111 should never have been built where it is going. the fact is another transmission line was needed to have enough capacity for future contract demands.  
 
I do not believe that the operating costs for that line will be $1 mil a day. for what exactly?  
 
as for the "think tank" was that the same bunch of conservatives that recommended the sale of MTS?  
 
there will always be a market for electricity. the fist contract is more than doubling in 2027

belzebob

2/10/2017 5:41:45 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
loeog

I will pay higher rates if needed to keep hydro a crown corporation.  
 
we are all heavily invested in this company through the taxes we have paid to build it.

belzebob

2/10/2017 5:44:48 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
BTW

the majority of the money to build these damns would not of had to be borrowed if filmon had kept his hands off the hydro expansion and emergency fund

TEN

2/10/2017 5:45:22 PM
Member since:
Jul 2006
Total posts:2117
Hydro

Unfortunately, the cost to build all of Hydro's infrastructure could have been 1/4 of what it is today. Politics got in the way. Years of delay caused by study after study trying to appease everyone are the biggest cause of todays costs.  
Also for those who disagree with Bipole III running down the west side of the lakes, you need to remember the line into Saskatchewan will tie in instead of 2 lines.  
I wont even get into comparisons to the Dakota access pipeline fiasco if they tried to run down the east side.

loeog

2/10/2017 6:12:41 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:689
FYI

  
belzebob said "the majority of the money to build these damns would not of had to be borrowed if filmon had kept his hands off the hydro expansion and emergency fund "

In 1995, Hydro was a profitable company that had a couple hundred thousand dollars in a rainy day account. Our money!  
 
1995 -PC run Manitoba Hydro had the lowest Hydro rates in North America and was profitable. It''s profit was from Manitoba customers.  
 
2017 -NDP run Manitoba Hydro is on life support. Manitoba customers are looking at double digit increases and a possible rate doubling of present rates.  
 
2030 -Americans will still be using low cost Manitoba Hydro. Cheap Hydro because we are paying their bills.  
 
All I'm saying is the SpeNDP started with a profitable company.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2017-02-10 18:18:29

belzebob

2/10/2017 6:19:35 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
loeog

more false facts.  
 
the fund had much more money in it than that.  
 
filmon was taking millions out each year to balance his budget.  
 
he did the same thing to the mgeu pension fund.  
 
but now we are on our way to more filmon Fridays and no contract negotiations for workers.  
 
the sad part is that this is going to be put on all our backs because there are no more funds he can pillage like filmon did

Kirmit

2/10/2017 6:33:36 PM
Member since:
Jan 2017
Total posts:18
Hydro

Don''t know why everybody is arguing partisan politics over $100 million, when the debt in the next few years is going to be $25 BILLION. That''s $25,000,000,000 dollars! Put this another way, with a province having 1,000,000 habitants the per capita cost for EVERY man, woman and child is $25,000. I don''t know about you, but I''m not sure I would ever be able to consume my $25,000 share of this project cost. There is a much bigger scandal here than anybody realizes, and there is lots of blame to go around. There is simply no way this debt will ever be repaid, and especially seeing that natural gas and possibly even coal generation could easily be fired back up in the next while in the US, and while renewables including wind and solar have not even been considered. I''m thinking maybe Manitobans should consider packing up and moving to another province. I can''t see why the poor taxpaying sucker should get stuck with this ineptitude, this gamble at the craps table that''s not gonna pay off!  
 
Edited by Kirmit, 2017-02-10 18:40:08

belzebob

2/10/2017 6:45:50 PM
Member since:
Mar 2009
Total posts:55
kirmit

in my above post you will see that 500 mw contract with xcel energy is worth 3 billion dollars over 10 years  
 
this debt is payable. with more capacity and transmission we should be able to handle the debt  
 
granted we will have to find more sales

 
 
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