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Helping someone in your circle that’s lost their relationship with pandemic reality

Helping someone in your circle that’s lost their relationship with pandemic reality

Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Helping someone in your circle that’s lost their relationship with pandemic reality
11/27/2020 at 10:22 AM

While most folks spend their time being informed, following developments on the serious public health crisis in front of us and doing their part to keep each other safe, the pandemic has had a real unfortunate side effect of the odd person buying into some at times flat out strange disinformation narratives. Many who spend any kind of time on social media might have one or two of them in their contact lists... people who have succumbed to and confidently believe and repeat all kinds of wildly false and easily disprovable stuff as it relates to the virus’ severity, the government response and even vaccines. Sometimes it’s someone you didn’t expect to see it in such as a neighbour, family member or friend that’s giving an unfortunate first-hand example of the realities of the pandemic and how it effects different people in different ways.
They often find others on social media who have fallen into the same trap, forming a sort of echo chamber that re-enforces beliefs as more common and factual than they are and ramps up emotions.

I’m curious to learn more from others that have come across someone in their circles who have lost their way with facts along these lines.....

-what do you feel it was that led to a logic breakdown that sent this person into the realm of misinfo... or have they always been the type to grasp at conspiracy theories?
-have you seen common characteristics in people that lose their way?
-have you confronted them on it with any results?
-are you seeing friendships/relationships changed, strained or damaged as a result of someone that’s adopted and become engrained in such viewpoints?
-where appropriate, have you seen any success in referring to available mental health resources?

Knowing that in so many cases these are good folks caught up in such an unusual and trying time, my instinct is to look at any case I run into in a constructive way and would love to hear others’ experiences.
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Spades!!
Joined: This month
Posts: 964

Spades!!
Joined: This month
Posts: 964

Reply
11/27/2020 at 10:52 AM

In fact there are times when people do lose their way and get caught up in a stream of misinformation that can harm them or the people around them. After watching the movie ‘The Social Dilemma’ I can see how this can happen in today’s world.
The best comment I can offer to this discussion is to be kind, offer the facts as best you can and then let the person work it through for themselves. In truth we are only responsible for our own views. But I’d that person is a child or vulnerable person being taken advantage of, each one of us should step in to provide support in anyway we can.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Thx
11/27/2020 at 9:47 PM

Thanks for a thoughtful, compassionate response.
This story is from a little over a week ago now but goes into some of how the province has tried to combat disinformation in what the story refers to as a “dual pandemic.”
Closes by pointing out the importance of debunking...
“If you get out there and correct the misinformation, I know it may not feel like it but we’re talking about moving the needle here, it really does work.”

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/mobile/the-dual-pandemic-manitoba-s-top-doctor-busy-debunking-disinformation-1.5195197
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Conspiracy theorists
11/29/2020 at 7:07 AM

Just wanted to add for anyone that’s been following this topic.... a real in depth story that examines how people become victim to this sort of thing, some of the common fallacies that lead to some believing false stuff and how one can respond:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/29/how-to-deal-with-a-conspiracy-theorist-5g-covid-plandemic-qanon
delpmb
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 411

delpmb
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 411

seeing the light
11/29/2020 at 7:34 AM

the strength of conspiracy theories is that those who succumb feel they are the few who actually see thru the plot ( a manipulation )to the what is actually the truth and everyone who thinks otherwise are the blind ones., unaware of what is really going on...... hard to counteract.
nicemoustache
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151

nicemoustache
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151

This is a tough one
11/29/2020 at 10:48 AM

“Propaganda...information, views... deliberately spread...in such a way as to help or harm...a group, movement, cause, nation...”.
A writer in one of the above articles mentioned “we are loosing our grip on reality”. So true!
And the internet and media are hugely responsible. Especially social media. So, because we are ALL on it, we see everybody’s messed up thinking and opinions without them having a face or reason to prove what they are saying, and we have no idea if they have any actual credentials or experience to support their views. Back in our day maybe things were not questioned enough. We went to the encyclopedia to do research and took what it said without questioning anything...because we assumed it was presented without bias. Research on any topic today is very different...it’s all online, and bias?!? Most research by individuals is done in an effort to find support for whatever it is they have already decided to think. A good general rule is to assume there is some bias wherever you research.
Today’s news presentations are based on ratings, not necessarily fact. Ratings are derived from how many people tuned in to that “news” ( magazine, online, newspaper,TV etc.) and the number that tuned in determines how much money you and I will pay to advertise on that platform. So the term “propaganda” may or may not be disinformation. It is more defined by the presentation style and the desired effect that it may have. It may i:nclude only facts - even verifiable- but the way it is presented...maybe omitting some further facts or a subtle way of wording that may well cast a tilted view on a topic. Any place where people stand to gain money or position ( dare I say politics?) or for some, even just public exposure, and you can expect this.
So therein lies the conundrum...we have family that are anti-mask, ani- vacs, man - didn’t really land on the moon - type people. I know, there is a bit of a pattern.... but we must love them without agreeing with them. We must encourage them without suggesting we support their views. And we can’t think less of them as human beings because they interpret things differently than we do. And in most aspects of life that is at least do-able...but in the situation we are in, with so much of life itself at risk...HOW DO YOU DO THAT? I guess this post was started in an attempt to find an answer...I’m still looking too. My Family is important to me.
Flutterby

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1488

Flutterby
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1488

Adam, it's obvious that you care about these people
11/29/2020 at 1:39 PM

I need to state that I will not be coming back onto this thread to post additional comments because I realize what I will state here may (no, it will) inflame both sides. That is not my intention, even though I expect it to happen. These are emotional reactions that are to be expected. My intention is to encourage people be careful of what they believe and examine it *all*. I just really don't have the energy to fight and I really don't have any more to say on this topic anyway. Just be careful. Remember, respect & kindness are your allies.

I know those types of conspiracy folks too. The man I talk about below says that as much as you try, you will never convince some of them otherwise. They are addicted to sensationalism. They have always existed & will continue to do so. It is too bad.

I continue to battle the theories (but less all the time) on the forum that I moderate, but it has also become a place of calm & safety from the chaos for many who are of either extreme & those in the middle. It can be made to happen.

This past spring, I watched a cold case detective of many years give his take on conspiracy theories. Working as one of those, he says he constantly sees them. He says that there is generally a measure of truth in all of them to help them take hold, but it doesn't make the full conspiracy story true. He says that a successful conspiracy cannot have many people working together. There is too much risk of exposure, which defeats the purpose of working secretly. Each has a driving force...sex, power or money, sometimes all. He says that time reveals the truth. Observation & considering available evidence (there are many types of evidence) is always key. Of course, credibility is important. What drives them certainly should be considered as possibly affecting credibility as well.

I read as well that all conspiracy theories have politics involved. Looking back at all that I have come across, especially since January, show that this observation appears to hold water.

I personally wonder about the propaganda that whirled around the time of WW2 (as any major political event...these my own thoughts...not conspiracy based if anyone is assuming & taking my statement down that path). There would have been stories about govt. Some will have been false, for sure, but some, unfortunately were most possibly extremely accurate. Some would have been in the middle & could have never been proven true or false. Time will have revealed the truth in most of whatever may have circulated at that time. At some point, some theories may have become frightenly obvious & normal with some people no longer questioning anything, but going with the popular trends. On the other hand, some theories will have been proven blatantly false. This type of event tells me that caution & observing is important and bad things can & do happen & can happen when one stops asking pointed questions. Questions are important & gossip (I believe this is at the heart of many conspiracy theories) is not good. Assumptions are dangerous too. Also, if there is nothing to hide, answers to simple questions should come easy, wouldn't you think?

I think observation, leaving emotion out of the equation if possible, is important. I think all of the easily proven/provable (especially officially publically documented) facts are important to observe & take into consideration...even if they don't agree with your bias. Just the same, is *it* biased? Govt. is politics. Politics always has something to gain. So does the medical system...power & money as well, and they continuously want more of both. Studies are often flawed. Stats are often skewed. Look at what history reveals about these things. That is why it should be taken into consideration, not just taken in as truth. Keep an open mind.

If you consider that all information should be examined carefully, NO media is fully trustworthy as each type/media group has something to gain. Ratings, power, money are what drives them as do sensational stories. It's always been this way. Take it all with a grain of salt.

All information, whether given by media, the medical system, govt, friends, family, etc. should always be questioned for validity and not just take their word for it because they say its true. Each of these have something to gain, and so we need to be careful. Even the most credible can be wrong sometimes.

I have never trusted hype & popularity. I hate both. They are both red flags and are, at their core, emotionally driven. Emotion is never a stable foundation & causes people to say & do things they might not do otherwise. Seeing either or both of these things, tells me to be very careful moving forward. I have been seeing these things on both sides, and as we have all seen, words & actions on both sides have not been pleasant for anyone.

What I presently see (and this historically holds true) is that there are the two extremes (remember that neither are likely fully correct, as anything with two extremes) and neither wishes to listen to the other or carefully consider what the other might have to say. Usually, as with anything, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is important to respect, be willing to listen & learn. Balance is always important.

Anyway, I am not convinced that either extreme is fully correct in their chosen propaganda. I am watching, hearing, learning as we go. I am adapting as needed to developments and not breaking laws, but I am also never going to stop questioning, nor observing. It is important.
Spades!!
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Spades!!
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Opposing views are hard to listen to
11/29/2020 at 3:52 PM

Listening to someone who has an opposing view especially if it is based on hearsay or conspiracy is a huge challenge. Lots of emotions are called up and often the discussion simply turns into an argument with no ground gained on either side.
In my opinion there is nothing gained by arguing or trying to counter the other person’s view in the heat of the moment. Instead maybe what is needed is to put your own views aside and simply listen, really listen to what the person has to say. You may not agree and can gently offer an alternate viewpoint. You may even get past their misinformation to hear someone that is fearful or overwhelmed. Instead focus on validating their feelings based on their view. Maybe, if there is trust in the relationship, at that point the person maybe open to hearing your side or the facts.
No matter some people are so caught up in what they believe all you can do is to let it go. That may be walking away, changing the subject or setting boundaries with that person to prevent them from forcing their views on you. In some extreme cases it may requiring you severing all ties to protect your sanity.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Conspiracy theorists
11/30/2020 at 10:31 AM

This is going to be long, but... I still have thoughts

Not seeing any real first hand accounts in this thread and so maybe it’s not as common as it might seem even though I’ve seen a handful on local social media that fit the description. Important to be a little more clear what we’re talking about here.

Not directing this at anyone in particular other than maybe posts from a conspiracy theorist or two that had to be removed. This is about facts and the fact that they matter and not whether one should give govts and authority figures a free pass.

If someone wants to debate you on the earth being flat, there are no sides to the debate, there is no debate. The earth is a sphere. The facts are clear. In saying that the earth is spherical, one isn’t taking a side… they’re stating a scientifically established, known fact. By even calling it a “side” to baselessly and confidently take the position the earth is flat, a person is undermining what’s factually established.

What we’re talking about isn’t a simple case of someone suggesting that gov should look at tweaking lockdown orders or that the planet is flat. Example of the kinds of wild conspiracy theories you’ll see...
that all of the world’s governments (left and right, many of which likely don’t exactly get along), media and “elite” collectively known as “them” are collaborating together to use an imagined Covid virus to turn us all into computer-chipped mindless zombies.... all somehow without leaving a shred of factual evidence.

Stuff that feels ridiculous just to type that hasn’t earned the right to be called a side any more than the flat earther’s stuff does, probably even less so if possible. Whether it’s just needing something to believe in during a difficult time or looking for attention this is the kind of person that often needs some level of assistance... an especially delicate tightrope to walk if they happen to be someone in one's circle.
Govt and officials have and I’m sure will continue to make some mistakes in the response but these aren’t the folks you want feeling they have the role of holding government accountable. What they do is crowd the airwaves and undermine the ability of the rest of us to factually question government when criticism can simply be written off as coming from a bunch of conspiracy theorists with no regard for fact. You’re even starting to see it creep into provincial Covid briefings where officials are having to spend time debunking totally baseless stuff... and any time spent debunking is less time spent answering questions by someone like a CBC Bartley Kives or the Brandon Sun who are in part of their roles bringing about a lot of accountability and asking often tough questions that help to inform (if you haven't watched the questioning portion of these briefings I'd recommend it to understand the sometimes tense relationship and tug-o-war between media, officials and communications staff that works toward answers and, where necessary, accountability).

As much as I started this thread with having seen a few examples in my own social feed it was really from the perspective that I’m seeing conspiracy theory mindset showing up in the odd person in the community that I wouldn’t have expected it in. I’ve seen the divisions that that leads to in the US and hate the thought of it becoming any more of an issue here than it already is. It’s one thing for people to get past what shape the earth is (you can all just live on the same earth and agree that your lives are fundamentally the same either way as long as you make a pact to never sail accross too many oceans together). It’s another if the conspiracy theories actually support and spread false info that would lead to lost lives, and whether it’s a acquaintance, a neighbour or even in some rare cases the owner of a business you frequent...that’s a hard thing to look the other way on if they're going as far as actively trying to spread it which is where the link in my prev post might come in.

At the end of the day a guy can hope the best for some of these folks, that as the pressures, worries, fears and anger from all of these changes subside so too will some of the grasping for alternate realities. But before we get there there’s some responsibility to try to limit the damage they can potentially do to the response to this awful virus in the months leading up to and through what sure looks like an eventual vaccine.
Silverli
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 40

Silverli
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 40

Tough subject but...
11/30/2020 at 11:10 AM

I have spent a few days pondering this topic before answering. Tough one, to be sure, and the honest answer is that I don’t think it is possible to change the opinions of people on this or many other subjects. This is partially because our brains instinctually protect the little house of beliefs that we create. This is a house that we build from instinct as well as our experiences to protect ourselves from perceived danger. There have been studies, a notable one by Jonas Kaplan for example, that watched brain activity in people when their strong religious and political beliefs were challenged, and their brains lit up just like they were being physically attacked. This triggers our self defense mechanisms, fight or flight if you will, and we (they) literally have no conscious control over that.
So what does this mean for the topic at hand?
It means that challenging a person’s convictions about this virus, pandemic or anything related to it just won’t work. It actually may be counter-productive, as it only increases the hostility and anger that can be ignited in both parties.
My personal way of dealing with situations of denial, or conspiracy believers, is to first acknowledge that I understand why things look that way to them. I understand their fear, their questions and their need to try to make sense of it all. After all, even though I am on board with the truth of it all, I would be lying if I said that I didn’t have doubts or questions at times.
And then, I attempt to appeal to the side of them that expects timely, safe, free health care should they need it. Although this certainly is not the only thing in jeopardy at the moment, it is one thing that all of us Canadians can agree on. So, if for no other reason, and even if there is some grand global conspiracy, and even if our government has tragically let us down, we need to follow the guidelines and protect that very important right.
I have had some success in convincing at least one person to follow the rules in this way.
Again, I don’t believe it is possible to change the minds of most people, based on science, but it seems to me that the most important thing to convince people of at the moments is to follow the guidelines to protect us all.
Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

I wish I knew.
11/30/2020 at 11:19 AM

I have a relative who is spouting all sorts of strange, frankly ridiculous, things about COVID.

Engaging with him and his ilk is tough because one of the first things they do is discount your sources. “Main stream media is all owned by two or three conglomerates and can’t be trusted!” , “ The government is taking away your civil liberties and interment camps are coming so of course they will say what you want to hear.” ETC

I have learned from past experience speaking to religious people that once they have discounted ALL your sources of evidence with blanket excuses there really is no conversation to be had. How do you logically counter someone who refuses to listen to logic? How do you speak to someone if, when you start to make sense, says “that’s the devil talking!” ( insert main stream media or government or other entity instead of devil) and discounts everything you’re saying?
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Religion
11/30/2020 at 11:28 AM

Spaghetti Monster said "I have a relative who is spouting all sorts of strange, frankly ridiculous, things about COVID.

Engaging with him and his ilk is tough because one of the first things they do is discount your sources. “Main stream media is all owned by two or three conglomerates and can’t be trusted!” , “ The government is taking away your civil liberties and interment camps are coming so of course they will say what you want to hear.” ETC

I have learned from past experience speaking to religious people that once they have discounted ALL your sources of evidence with blanket excuses there really is no conversation to be had. How do you logically counter someone who refuses to listen to logic? How do you speak to someone if, when you start to make sense, says “that’s the devil talking!” ( insert main stream media or government or other entity instead of devil) and discounts everything you’re saying? "
This really wasn’t meant to be a debate about religion. That would be an example where so long as one’s viewpoint isn’t harming anyone and they aren’t trying to push it on someone else, there’s plenty of room to agree to disagree and respect how one finds their own happiness. Myself am not religious but some of my better friends are and it’s actually quite awesome and a great example of how far common ground and common values can go across differing viewpoints.
Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

You misunderstood
11/30/2020 at 11:40 AM

—-I am not really talking about religion but rather the methods used to discount what otherwise would be considered factual evidence. I brought that up because that is where most of my experience lies.

It’s like you said about discussing flat earth versus sphere. This is not intended to be a discussion about the shape of the planet yet you made your point with that as an example.
The same can be said for instance that the earth is older than 6000 years. That is a fact. There really is no conversation needed yet there they are.

That is the kind of thinking I am encountering regarding COVID. “ It’s no worse than having the flu and people die from that every year” when you point out the evidence it is discounted outright as flawed, tainted, put out by a cabal of super secret super criminals etc.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4299

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4299

overlap
11/30/2020 at 12:16 PM

I've been pondering this for several days as well. There's no easy answers.

I've noticed a definite trend in the types of people who are swept into the "Covid is a conspiracy" crowd. It's making some strange bedfellows, that's for sure from groups that I didn't think had much in common.

But a common theme, after several days reflection, is that these people already have a deep distrust for authority and government.

How do you argue against that? If they're already rejecting authority, you can't use authority to convince them. It doesn't matter how illogical their position is, or how much authoritative evidence is presented to counteract their version of "facts'.

Its like the religious example cited above, about flat earth etc. As a deeply religious person, it frustrates me to no end when factual information is somehow perceived a threatening. Do facts sometimes challenge my beliefs? Absolutely. But that's not a bad thing. In the end, facts and faith usually end up being two parts of the same whole, rarely in conflict with each other.

That being said, at the end of the day I can only do one thing: be loving. I am not always perfect at that, but I'm trying. I've had some really interesting IRL and online discussions with people who in the end thank me for having a civil discussion, even when we disagree. I can only hope those conversations will plant a seed to start trusting.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Sun editorial
Apr 15 at 4:10 PM

Sun editorial today (no paywall) that reminded me of this thread even if it wasn’t by any means directly addressing it:
https://www.brandonsun.com/opinion/editorials/time-to-address-growing-cynicism-574208242.html

I’ve taken for the most part a Facebook break over the last couple months but made use a little more of the past few days while posting a few links. The pandemic has been hard on a lot of people, but quite disconcerting to see some of the misinfo and frustration spreading with confidence from folks who one wouldn’t necessarily expect it from. I hope we can stay focused on the task at hand and keep a wider perspective for the fact that gov and the medical pros guiding the response are acting in their expertise and our best interest to get us and our loved ones through this next wave, knowing full well what the same virus is doing right now to people no different than us in other provinces in this same country!
Since this thread was started I see that FB is pairing links to factual posts with many Covid-related posts, which has to help on at least some level. With some time having passed since this thread was last active, I'd be curious for any new thoughts and feedback for how folks mightve helped (or coped with?) folks in their circles that have succumbed to and try to spread pandemic misinfo.
kevin89
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 93

kevin89
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 93

Its disheartening
Apr 16 at 10:12 AM

Thats about all I can say, you hope for the best in people and they will be reasonable. Listen to the actual scientists, doctors, epidemiologists, etc. I just ended up removing/blocking/muting a bunch of people I had on my facebook once it became clear that there was no reasoning with them, no clarity (real or imagined) as to the seriousness of this issue. It seems worse around my hometown, a more rural community than it does in the city but thats to be expected with a smaller sample size. The main problem I have is that all of these "conspiracy theorists" seem to be very active online, but when push comes to shove to attend these anti-mask rallies or better yet volunteer at clinics they are nowhere to be found? If you believe in it enough to bully and belittle people online that are following the rules, or trying to enforce the rules. Surely a small fine or the threat of one wouldnt change your mind would it, especially since I've seen multiple statements by these groups saying police/officials "cant enforce" these "bylaws", I guess if they cant do anything to you then what are you scared of?
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Theorists
Apr 17 at 10:08 AM

kevin89 said "Thats about all I can say, you hope for the best in people and they will be reasonable. Listen to the actual scientists, doctors, epidemiologists, etc. I just ended up removing/blocking/muting a bunch of people I had on my facebook once it became clear that there was no reasoning with them, no clarity (real or imagined) as to the seriousness of this issue. It seems worse around my hometown, a more rural community than it does in the city but thats to be expected with a smaller sample size. The main problem I have is that all of these "conspiracy theorists" seem to be very active online, but when push comes to shove to attend these anti-mask rallies or better yet volunteer at clinics they are nowhere to be found? If you believe in it enough to bully and belittle people online that are following the rules, or trying to enforce the rules. Surely a small fine or the threat of one wouldnt change your mind would it, especially since I've seen multiple statements by these groups saying police/officials "cant enforce" these "bylaws", I guess if they cant do anything to you then what are you scared of? "
It’s gotten not overly pretty in good-sized pockets on social media in the city too. more than you'd hope to see who confidently believe and repeat ridiculous stuff that puts them in a spot to rationalize the outcomes that suit them.

Can’t help but wonder if this region is ironically a little more susceptible to it because of how low we’ve been able to keep our case numbers so far. Maybe folks that haven’t had the opportunity to see what’s happening next door in Ontario with the same virus right at this very moment.

But once someone’s reached the point of disavowing any kind of traditional authority figure or trained & educated expert in a field it’s difficult to bring them into the “know enough to know when you don’t know” fold. As much as my nature is to believe the best in people, once we’re through this there are going to be people (and in some cases businesses) that it’ll be extremely difficult to look at the same way again.

Sun reporter asked a question about the impact of fake news on the virus response at yesterday’s media briefing.. and how you convince people of the truth. Dr Atwal had a lengthy response that’s worth a watch and perhaps a few shares. Starts at 25:08, but the embed below should begin right at the question:
The direct link is https://youtu.be/xLvSh_H_TlA?start=1508
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15599

Sun story
Apr 19 at 8:27 AM

An extensive Sun story today on the topic of fake news and conspiracy theories from a local perspective. A must-read and maybe even share for anyone that’s taken an active interest in this thread or anyone that’s come across false theory believers in their circles:
https://www.brandonsun.com/coronavirus/Fake-news-hampers-COVID-fight-574233821.html
Millenial
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 123

Millenial
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 123

It is a challenge to navigate.
Apr 20 at 4:43 PM

Thank you for posting the link to this article. I also have someone very close to me who buys into these theories. It's easy to say that you will avoid talking politics with them but reality is the politics are our everyday life and it has caused many arguments, more or less stemming from when Trump became president.

It's unfortunate to see just how many people are involved in Covid conspiracies but it's also reassuring knowing that there are other people sharing a similar experience to mine.

As a previous commenter said, the best you can do is present them with fact and let them work through it themselves. The unfortunate reality is that fact isn't really enough for most of these people.