Discussions

I am opening up a discussion on the Canadian political arena. What is going on in the US has had a huge impact in Canada. It is important, as Canadians, that we have an open, honest yet respectful discussion on what are our Canadian values and how Canadian values are being represented by the various political parties, if at all.  
For most of my adult life I struggled with my understanding of where I stood in my political views. I suspect I am not alone and that many people struggle with their own place in the political scene.  
 
Some rules for this thread:  
1.) Be respectful. Everyone has a right to their views. We can agree to disagree through open and honest discussion.  
2.) Be factual. It is ok to disagree and provide an alternate viewpoint. Support your view with evidence and avoid vague attacks and sarcasm.  
3.) If a comment angers you or you are feeling attacked, rather than putting down the person who posted, try to see their side. Ask questions to clarify their view.  
4.) Do not post in anger. Take a deep slow breath, walk away and cool down. Write your ideas on paper before forming your post here. Remove attacks before posting.  
 
With the possibility of an election around the corner, this discussion IMO is more important than ever. I look forward to hearing different perspectives. FYI: I may post questions about Canadian values through out this thread as I have lots of questions.  
 
Edited by Spades!!, 2021-01-14 11:21:43

The news that is.  
Everyone is watching the drama south of us unfold. So many have their theories. I don't lean left nor right. I say let the truth be revealed in it's time. Hard to speculate even if I took a stance on a partisan basis.  
That said, our country needs help. Our own community is sending people out in the cold due to C19 from the shelters and food banks running at very low capacity. People are contemplating taking own lives and mental health is at all time low. Can't continue to blame govt. Look at how 'taxing' it is currently to lead, not to mention health care. Let's make some lemon-aid with this sour state we may be in.  
This should be our concern. Let's do what WE can. If that includes contacting our local govt's and MLAs, do it. Let's change our "corner of the world" today while events in the south play out.  
 
Ask not what your country can do for you...  
Cheers, friends.

You say what is transpiring in the US is having huge impacts in Canada... Can you expand on what these new huge impacts on Canadians are?

Canada was built largely on Christian values. But a lot has changed over the last century and we are a diverse country of many cultures. IMO diversity is a strength but others see it as a weakness. I disagree with this because of the values I hold dear: tolerance and acceptance of our differences. I love that we can celebrate our differences and learn about other cultures. While french and english are the two primary languages in Canada, I have no issues hearing other people speak in their native tongues and I have asked people about their language if the situation allowed.  
I believe in freedom of speech as long as what is said does not promote hate or violence  
 
These are a couple of my values but are they true Canadian values?

My concerns about the impact of what has been a chaotic 4 years in the US largely revolves around the empowerment of racists views, intolerance of diversity and the use of fear and lies to control the population. Largely in the empowerment of alt-right groups in Canada. I have followed a news groups and political parties on social media in an attempt to understand political views. Instead what I am seeing is the dehumanization of Trudeau and the liberal party, there is a lot of anger in the west and Canada.  
I recently read that a poll conducted in Canada that 1 in 4 Canadians hold some belief that the US elections were rigged. I've read the same in posts by Conservative party members about our Canadian elections. Sorry I do not have links but will post if I can find it.  
 
Though my family has traditionally voted conservative, I have avoided any affiliation with any party in the past 20 yrs. Maybe this thread is my way of attempting to find my way back.

That is my bad! and will be more careful

It is hard to avoid media reports. I agree we have to simply shut it down and look to our own country faults. Covid 19 has definitely shown the gaps in our system.  
 
But those gaps won't get fixed unless we find common ground on how to fix them. This is why I opened this discussion. Definitely talking to your MLAs and local governments is a good start. But I feel there is too much apathy in the population. One or two people calling the MLAs or government with concerns is lost in the day to day tasks.

These extremists groups are nothing new. They have always existed and unfortunately always will. Previously they used to only truly exist in the bowels of the internet so to speak. They mostly communicated on the darkweb or other obscure places that the average person would not go. Now with the medias constant reports of them and mainstream social media platforms such as facebook and twitter that have allowed them to thrive in the open for years. This has had unintentional consequences and has also recruited some people who likely never would have shared similar views. This has also allowed new groups to populate and spread hate and lies as well. The US problem was they had a leader for the past 4 years who shared their views and encouraged them. So as they say nowadays these groups are "woke". I don't think there is much we can do now but control them and stop giving them the spotlight and a outlet for them to spew their garbage. And in hopes they will disappear back into the shadows but I don't think that will happen anytime soon, or likely ever.  
 
Edited by BiG Mack, 2021-01-14 12:19:47

In my opinion the U.S. has always been a highly racist country. Do you have a link yet to the poll info you stated? I wonder who was polled to come up with those results.  
 
Edited by Gussins, 2021-01-15 06:29:56

I found this  
https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/11/18/nearly-one-in-five-canadians-agree-with-trumps-assertion-the-us-election-was-unfair.html  
 
and it appears to be the conservatives who are the greatest believers (according to the poll)  
 
Edited by delpmb, 2021-01-15 07:53:19

In any party your going to find extremists if you look for them. They are on both sides.  
 
If your talking politics you have to take spin off groups with a grain of salt. Any right or left group can spin the words they want to here to fuel there agenda.  
 
We have to look at the political party’s for what they are. Not the little spin off groups that bend the politicians words. Does any member of the current Conservative party promote hate or rascism? Can you prove any of there motions are bills are racists?  
 
I look at conservatives as a people more inclined to worry about finances. They want to promote growth of the country and create jobs and bring down the nations ballooning debt. I will agree they have to make some cuts to services that not everyone agrees with. But if any of us get in debt in our personal lives. We have to make cuts to bring down our own debts. So how is the country ( or province ) any different.  
 
One thing on Canadian politics I find is provincial I can lean one way because our province is being run pretty poorly IMO. But federally I would be leaning for the party I am not a fan of in my own province.  
 
That’s just my two cents.

That was the link I was looking for.

And you thought you were hiding in plain sight....

So good to know I'm not the only one.  
 
Does anyone have any good resources for reading up on Canadian Politics? I am currently working my way through the Charter of Rights online site.  
 
Is it fair to ask what draws you to a particular federal or provincial party? or rather what do you look for in party policy, leadership qualities or is it just the party you've always voted for?

That many of us (maybe subconsciously) decide which party we will support when we choose our vocation. Since one of the top priorities in most people’s lives is money, they will Vote for the party that will give them the best chance of securing wealth. In most cases that will mean that if you choose a vocation in the agricultural industry, farming, or are the owner of a small business you are more likely to vote conservative because their policies generally support those industries. If you choose a vocation that is highly unionized or relies heavily on social programs, there is a good chance you will vote NDP because that’s high on their party platform. If you are a large corporate upper level management or a federal or provincial government employee, there is a good chance you will vote Liberal because that is where their priorities lie. Each one votes for who best represents what will be good for their pocketbook. I know it’s not always that simple, but I believe it is a general overview. There may be some vote swapping between liberals and Conservatives, and some between Liberal and NDP, but likely very little between NDP and conservative. Their ideologies are a little farther apart. So nothing wrong with people voting for the party that best represents their ideas. I wouldn’t expect most people That are unionized employees to vote for conservatives. Neither would I expect most farmers nor many small business owners to vote for the NDP. Of course there are times when we don’t particularly like the person who is the leader of “our” party, But in my opinion we should vote based on party policy rather than on personal perception, Although I fully realize that can get in the way.

Just like this fine gentleman said.  
 
We should be looking at each political party and see what there platform is all about. We should be voting the party’s on there platforms and there elections promises not the face running the party. I understand that is hard for some. But the policy’s behind the party are what matter the most.

vote for Mulcair NDP back in the day but he tried to please every one and lost his inspiration .... so I voted Liberal. We haven't been so close to a NDP national government since the days of Broadbent and Schreyer ( who was such a threat if he should decide to run federally Pierre Trudeau appointed him Governor General to lure him away from "politics") not to mention David Lewis ( which obviously I did) aw the good old days  
 
Edited by delpmb, 2021-01-15 17:02:51

Gary Doer....Doer was rated as Canada's most popular premier in polls taken in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, scoring a 77% rating in March 2006.[279] His approval rating was 81% in March 2008, making him the second most popular Canadian premier after Danny Williams of Newfoundland and Labrador.[280] Wiki

In this Charles Adler podcast he talks with Angus Reid about the poll and discusses possibly why.  
 
https://www.podbean.com/ew/dir-y8mtf-cae6aff

That was very interesting and hit on several points that brought me to start this thread. One point they made referred to the dangers behind the current social online media, the ability of anyone to create their own platform by cherry picking facts (and sometimes misrepresenting facts) to create their own reality, spread it to the masses in the blink of an eye and people believing that reality to be the truth. Take that scenerio along with pressures faced by politicians to cater to their demographics, who knows what is real. Debates on the real facts are hard enough, add in alternate realities it becomes impossible to come to clear conclusions.  
 
In the past I have had issues trying to judge who to vote for solely based on their political platforms. Political leaders have promised much to get elected and then rarely followed through with what got them elected. Try to build party platforms based on multiple realities and you have chaos. And to think I thought my main problem was deciding where I fell on the Socialist - Capitalist continuum. LoL!

Spend less time running the other party down. Instead spend more time telling me how you would do things differently or better. This was my main turn-off with Andrew Shear and its all I'm hearing from Erin O'Toole during interviews. I want to hear their ideas. I am sick off complaints and whining about the other party.

Its Stephen Harper's fault must really turn you off then.  
 
Yes the west is mad because if it went by fair representative based on population the west would have more seats as would be fair and andrew would have gotten elected as he would have won more seats. He did infact get the majority of the popular vote.  
 
Over 25% of the manitoba population worked for the government so if you count their families how many people are beholden to the government for their wages. A government who has no problem paying whatever is demanded from the unions whether or not the province can afford it or not is going to be popular. On the other side is the conservatives who look at is as someone will eventually be having to pay for this and interest to boot. How did it become evil to not want the next generation paying for all these extras that could have been avoided?  
 
https://etatscanadiens-canadiangovernments.enap.ca/en/nav.aspx?sortcode=2.0.2.0  
 
With the us politics how many times have you heard one party supporters saying repeatedly burn trump behead trump and no one did anything about all that hate speech. No one can deny that it is not hate speech enciting violence. Not one of those people got banned or charged. https://www.thewrap.com/hollywood-stars-donald-trump-violent-death-kathy-griffin-snoop-dogg/. Here is a just a few. Are they banned from anything? So what happened is the result of angry people who have seen one group use violent hate speech and get away with it so why not them. And to be fair trump never said go storm the capital with guns and get hostages and all that people took it too far and did more harm then good. He wanted an accouting of the fact that it is all over the internet about the cheating uou just have to look quick before it gets deleted as it not fit innthe agenda of the owners of the sites and search engines.

Thanks for sharing the ENAP site. It is dry information but a good discussion on the impact of changes and a comparison in demographics from province to province that influences public policy. I was not aware of that information.  
 
Yes Western Alienation is an important consideration in Canadian politics and it is complex arguement that few people really understand. I agree with equal representation across the country but struggle to determine what that means exactly when looking at the various stats/population base. Just to clarify though I mention Andrew Shear in a previous post as whining and complaining, I should restate that I see it in all parties. I actually liked Andrew (Harper not so much). What I find frustrating is the constant attacks between parties. It is easy to find fault and blame the 'other guy' but much harder to outline what needs to be done differently. The constant bickering/yelling/disrespectful behaviour during a session of parliament sickens me to the point of tuning them out when I should be listening and trying to understand. The finger pointing gets worse in an election year. It is a long standing issue I have had with all parties for many years.  
 
Rural your comment about the US political arena and hate messages, I agree it is on both sides and not acceptable in any context.  
 
Edited by Spades!!, 2021-01-16 08:25:20

I agree and the finger pointing is terrible. To see grown men lashing out at each other as to what they didn't do rather than to say what they will do is very annoying and frustrating, and I hate the constant interrupting as well. How can one know who to vote for when you think they're all liars and behave like children. I am Conservative but I would be scared to vote for someone like Trump regardless of party politics.

also so much hatred towards anything liberal. Many conservatives believe if your liberal, you need to be sent to an institution or killed off because it's a sickness. There's this belief any social programs is just another step towards a USSR type of country.  
 
I know if I post anything on my Facebook anything pro Liberal or Trudeau, I will be attacked by my conservative friends.

Why do you always gotta take things to extremes. Especially with politics. I have seen you say things like this countless times about conservatives.  
 
I know a bunch of conservatives and I know a bunch liberals. Neither thinks the opposite has any type of sickness. Your election beliefs don’t define who you are as a person. Especially here in Canada. Do I have to hate my neigbor cause they voted pc or liberal. No. We should welcome a conversation with them to hear out there opinions. Maybe we can learn somthing from them.  
 
Do I think all social programs are bad. No. But do we need anymore. no to that also. I know 90% of the conservatives support fiscal responsibility. We can still have social programs in out own country while being conservative. It just means maybe we quit funding them in every other country.

Is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever heard. This kind of untrue statement is where extremist behaviour and beliefs begin, where problems start. It is no one else’s business how any individual chooses to vote, this is a private matter and should be treated as such! If you are lucky enough to have the right to vote I encourage you to use it and don’t disclose your political leaning to anyone else.

Though the average person who votes conservative has their sanity, there is a group of people who are decidedly more intolerant of any liberal view. They express themselves with anger and vitriol towards any socialists views. They are dehumanizing Trudeau with every word and saying that Trudeau is a communist and they attack if you try to counter their extreme views. The only other party I've seen some vitriol is the Green Party when Elizabeth May was replaced. But little since. I have never seen it this bad and may be one of the side-effects of what has been going on in the US these past 4 yrs. This along with the results of the poll posted above is quite concerning. These people are also attacking on CBC sites and attacking anyone who posts on the Liberal site. IMO this next election will be like nothing we have seen before. I may be and hope I am wrong. If Trevor is encountering it off line then these extreme views may be more prevalent than I thought.  
 
I say this not to create fear but simply to give voice to what I have seen myself and to express caution in what we may see in the next election. Like I said I hope I am wrong.

We can find extremist leftist views on the internet and extremist right views on the internet as well. When Harper was PM how many leftists said terrible stuff about him. I have yet to ever here anyone say JT is a communist in day to day conversation, but will agree on the internet it’s being thrown around. Some times people talk trash on the internet cause they can sit behind a keyboard and never actually have to speak there words face to face to some one else.  
 
I have heard a lot of JT trash talk. But maybe some of it is due. Only PM countless scandals and multiple proven ethics violations. If I do somthing at work I get criticized about it to.