Discussions

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/18-children-3-adults-killed-in-texas-elementary-school-shooting-1.5916553  
 
Joe Biden Addresses Texas School Massacre: “When In God’s Name Are We Going To Stand Up To The Gun Lobby?”

The better question is "When in gods name are we going to stand up and try to understand the mental health aspect of the individuals who perpetrate these horrendous crimes?"  
 
Every single mass killing seems to focus solely on the tool used not the actual mental aspect of the killer, when a gun is used every politician instantly spouts more gun control, when a knife is used all of a sudden there are pointy knife bans, the only tool that never gets blamed is vehicles for some reason.  
 
Edited by hutchster, 2022-05-24 22:08:10

A knife is used for cooking  
 
A car is used for transportation  
 
An assault rifle is used for ???  
 
There's your answer

Again you're focusing squarely on the tool used to perpetrate the heinous crime not the mental aspect of the person who did it and why they did it and how we go about stopping people from doing it in the future or if that's even possible, and this happens after every instance of this  
 
If a cooking knife or commuter car was used to kill these 20 children would that make it less appalling ?  
 
At the core of it all, some nutcase decided they wanted to murder a bunch of innocent children and used whatever tool was at their disposal, does anyone honestly think if this person couldn't get access to a firearm they wouldn't use the next best thing they could get their hands on, whether its a knife, car, explosives, poison, etc  
 
Countries with extreme or even all out firearm bans still have mass killings, sometimes they still get guns even because as criminals they don't care about the consequence of being caught with an illegal gun, the common denominator isn't the tool used but the mindset of the person committing it so why do we always focus on the gun.

and realistic to control guns than the mental stability of every human with access to a gun. I know gun owners say “it’s not the gun it’s the person holding the gun”. How about you line up 50 people and tell me which ones have mental health struggles? No? Ok how about which of the 50 are holding guns?seems easier to remove the gun from the picture. Let’s be honest, guns are a big part of the “American culture“ and viewed as a god-given right in their constitution. You reviewed as “manly man or lady” if you have a gun and mental issues are still viewed as a sign of weakness. As advanced is the United States is in some ways things like this that show how archaic some of their views on the world are. In my opinion law-enforcement and military are the only ones that should have access to assault weapons. That would be a start anyway. Unfortunately greed and political power is also a huge part of America so with NRA buying politicians sadly nothing will change. You can set your watch by it, mass shooting with an assault weapon, thoughts and prayers from the politicians, in the media anyway, public outrage for a week or so, then settles down and something else takes over the news until the next mass shooting. The US is way past the point of no return on gun control. I’m glad Canada doesn’t follow their lead.

Not sure what your getting at with the 50 person lineup thing, do you assume that those 50 people holding guns are all going to snap and kill a bunch of people, no such thing a stable gun owner ?  
 
Say hypothetically overnight all guns are banned, right down to 22lr gopher plinkers and tomorrow morning someone snaps and decides to go on a murder rampage with maybe a car or a knife or an illegal gun smuggled into the country by people who also like to smuggle other illegal things like drugs, whats the knee jerk reaction going to be, double ban guns, murder is already illegal so do we make it doubly illegal ?  
 
Or how about we try to instead focus on where the real issue lies, in the head of the scum who up and decide they want to commit mass murder ?  
 
You're right, after every instance like this there's first a knee jerk reaction, followed by laws either attempted or successfully passed and then its forgotten about by the next big news story until it happens again, how about we push to understand the deep rooted hatred or imbalance that that person has experienced instead of just focusing solely on the tool used by said person ?  
 
I never said its going to be easy to delve into the mental health aspect, it will be monumentally difficult so instead the best option is to ban inanimate o:bjects ?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country  
 
Worldwide US outranks every other country in numbers of mass shootings. Do you think other countries don't have a large number of people with mental health issues? Other countries don't have cars and knives?  
 
There's one major difference with the USA and that's easy access to firearms more importantly assault rifles. There's no need for these in modern society. Unfortunately that's an issue for the USA to figure out. I'm glad we don't have as many gun crazy people here in Canada.

so too is racism/white supremacy concerns.  
 
but both of these issues are part of a long game that requires society change. That does not change over night.  
Access to guns can be changed literally overnight. Restricting the access is a quick fix to stop these mass shootings.  
The US right to bear arms has gone overboard and is outdated. When their constitution was written society was a lot different as people needed guns to hunt and provide for family, personal safety was pretty much in the hands of the individual. We have other resources in place to deal with the need for safety and food.  
IMO the right to bear arms must be removed from the US constitution. No one in their right mind has a need for assault rifles, hand guns should be kept out of the hands of the average person with strong measures in place to punish criminals who access guns through illegal means.

are just too easy to get and no safety requirements for them. How many times have young kids found a loaded gun then thinking it's toy, shoots and kills a family member by accident.  
 
And yes other weapons can be used, but when you can easily get a rifle like an AR-15 with multiple high capacity clips, you can kill a lot more people than a knife. Some businesses have promotions where you get a gun for buying something. And using the 50 person example again, how many can you shoot verses stabbling?  
 
With the health care system they have there, getting mental health help isn't easy or cheap. Can't always blame mental health either. Many of these shooters are reacting to what they hear in the news and other sources. The Buffalo shooter knew exactly what he was doing and had things planned out.

...  
 
Edited by hutchster, 2022-05-25 09:22:30

If they are planning it, they will find the weapons they are looking for, regardless of what gun laws/bans are in place. This is all very unfortunate and sickening, and I don't think there is any real world way of stopping these awful things from occurring. I feel the laws are like the lock on your house, it only keeps the honest people out.  
 
Edited by Generally concerned, 2022-05-25 11:09:34

problem lies in the fact they have the 2nd Amendment to begin with. Sadly those who created it didn't know how it would be 247 year later. It was created after 1776 when the British were still a threat to take the country back and there was no military like today. Don't think 247 years ago they though people would be walking into schools and killing children, their own citizens!! The NRA has gone from a gun safety organization to a gun lobby to protect gun manufacturers. The NRA will just claim more people need guns.  
 
Many blame mental health, video games, and movies, but we have those issues. Same with other countries, but Canada and other countries make it difficult to get a gun. And in Texas, they reduced gun laws to essentially zero laws.  
 
Sadly there will be nothing done to prevent things like this and will continue. There is such a desire to ban abortions, LGBQT rights, banning books and other stupid things that they can't protect kids in schools from getting shot. They don't care about the living children, they care more about the rights of an unborn fetus. It's a race to see who can be the most vile Governor of a state.

likely come out that the shooter is against Critical Race Theory in elementary schools, believes in the White Replacement Theory or some other non-existant cause.

Can't wait to see what mental gymnastics Governor Abbott and the Republican NRA toadies perform to defend the nearly totally open firearms market in the US.

NRA Convention has banned guns fron entering the event because of "safety concerns". Can't trust all of those responsible gun owners?

https://youtu.be/u7tKqFVI4GM  
 
Sounds like this 18 year old shooter just bought the guns with money he got for his 18th birthday!!

I attended a gun show at the Glendale arena in Arizona several years ago. Had to go through metal detectors to enter. Upon leaving, I was asked by at least 6 different sellers in the parking lot if I wanted to buy used handguns at bargain-basement prices. No ID required. Cash only. Free ammo with purchase. Police patrolled the lot to prevent such sales to no avail. Gun sales increase every time there are mass killings. Current stats indicate 120 guns per 100 people in USA. There is NO political will to solve this. Too many politicians are in the NRA pockets.

a way forward would be for all the people to not ever purchase guns, yes it will take many years, but it has to start somewhere.  
Carrying a gun is not really protection, it just means if you are not seriously wounded, that you possibly can return fire. I'm sure a semi automatic can fire more rapidly than you can draw a weapon, more so if it is in the glove box of your vehicle. Which is where Texas friends kept their handgun when they drove anywhere .  
Meanwhile I feel sadness for all those families affected by these shootings.

Nothing will result from this nightmare. A sad fact when we see the obstacles presented in the modern American society to reform gun laws. Former President Obama couldn't make one simple change to gun control when the Sandy Hook school tragedy happened on his watch. Biden will get the same road blocks in proposing and/or pass anything that resemble the same changes tried in 2012 through the Republican entrenchment. Nothing major has happened for better gun control since Regan got shot (Brady Bill, 1993). The Republican Texas state loves their illusion of freedom and their personal liberty & security of guns, just too bloody much to concede for change. Plain and simple. By tonight or tomorrow, the "blame game" and the "what if scenario" will be the main focus with the gun lobbyists with statements like... "If only the teachers had a firearm". *eyes roll* Guns are great tools, but they make bad toys and even worse instruments in making a statement, resolving disagreements or expressing emotional distress. I'm sickened of some having that narrow focus of the important purpose of personal firearms being a invaluable tool, reinforced with the combination of arrogant pride with constant fear which what maintains the status quo. That quo being to keep the laws the same, appear shocked & dismayed during tragedy, put the flags at half mast for cheap respect, have meaningful discussions that results to nothing and have officiates and celebrities saying over and over those empty words that their "thoughts and prayers are with them".  
 
To those who constantly use the knife and car comparison... It's a terrible comparison. I understand anything can be purpose into a weapon. But a gun has a certain design element that differ over most common tools. It's already in a defined classification as a controlled weapon. Household knives and cars don't have that predetermined definition. And besides... The death count and/or effectiveness of an knife or machete attack is much lower. Only in movies can someone kill with a knife from ten feet away. And as for cars... can anyone prove that children have died from a Chevy or Ford in a school classroom while doing math or ELA? These folks need to stop the misdirection of the topic. It's needs to be focused on the gun culture itself and the glaring flaws with the regulations of the sales, classification, handling, ownership, disposal and personal obligation/responsibility of these weapons.  
 
I admire, respect and somewhat fear firearms for what they are. But too many people want that same admiration, respect and also fear transposed onto themselves by owning and/or using them. That's always been the problem. Throw in mental issues like disillusions, social disconnection and/or disrespect, impulsiveness and uncontrolled emotions... This will only result to an eventual serious consequence, unless there's an intervention at the highest level to have a National Regulation governing the entire USA to close some loopholes. But, that won't happen. It can't because of all the lobbyists, closed door political dealings and money that contaminate and interfere with better judgement on the behalf & benefit of the people.  
 
It's crazy to think that the American Government is more concerned to eliminate the personal rights to control & regulate of an embryo in a uterus or lab to protect life, instead regulating the guns in the general public that threaten and take lives every day. To preserve and protect new life to be born in a world that won't protect that same life from the violence and misuse of firearms. Very disappointing.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

are more fearful that their children might have to learn real history, real biology, the real world where not everything is black and white than they are of children being gunned down in school.  
 
DeSantis in Florida is mad at Disney because Disney supports the LGBQT community and not his "Don't Say Gay" bill. Mad to the point he's done up bills in hopes of hurting Disney. But gun control, no way!!  
 
Republicans in Oklahoma made one of the strictest abortion bills where abortion moment after conception is illegal. Considering women don't realize they are pregnant until around 6 weeks. But gun safety?

Here's some of the spin from Republicans.  

I've read the reports and the shooter purchased AR-15 STYLE weapons. That means they look like the real deal, but are strictly semi-automatic. The US Army defines an assault rifle if it meets these criteria:  
 
It must be capable of selective fire.  
 
It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle, examples of intermediate cartridges are the 7.92×33mm Kurz, the 7.62×39mm and 5.56×45mm NATO.  
 
Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable box magazine.  
 
It must have an effective range of at least 300 metres (330 yards).  
 
Note the selective fire capability (i.e. full auto/burst mode/semi-automatic fire) Any weapon which can be operated in full auto or burst is a RESTRICTED weapon and not available to the general public. I get so tired of hearing the media toss around the words "assault rifle" without knowing what they are describing. Furthermore, consider the population of Switzerland, which has a standing army of approximately 120,000 people, only about 9,000 of which serve full time. The rest are volunteers and keep their equipment including weapons in their homes. Why has there never been a mass shooting in Switzerland with the potential for a lone volunteer to go berserk?

First off this is horrible. But it’s just part of a senseless cycle that will never end in the good old USA . Shootings, debate it, close your eyes, shootings. The cycle that never stops. Not surprising at all anymore. Devastatingly tragic but not unexpected down there. Sad all the way around but unfortunately a way of life for these people. No one seems to come up with any solutions. Maybe they just don’t want to.

thoughts and prayers, nothing will change. NRA donates big money to both Democrats and Republicans. Innocent children will continue to be murdered. The NRA will advocated that more guns be purchased and teachers should be armed with guns.

And one that is difficult to navigate. The problem is that many people will side one way or another on the argument of what to do to reduce these occurrences, but the reality is that this is a difficult goal to achieve.  
Stricter gun control will not entirely solve the issue. Criminals rarely use legal weapons, so there is a very obvious underworld in the illegal gun trade, so people will still find a way to buy guns, and if they don't, they will use other means to achieve their purpose.  
What the main issue is, relates to mental health. Obviously, it is not within the normal realm of rational thinking for someone to purposefully and violently murder people. That is an issue pertaining to mental health. This can be a result of any number or reasons: trauma, stress, abuse, neglect, social pressures, home situations, bullying, depression, etc, all of which are highly on the rise post covid.  
Increasing the ability for people to obtain immediate mental health care, and identifying those in need faster, would absolutely help, but the problem here is the stigma still attached to seeking out help, in addition to lack of resources.  
Obviously, many people will blame the government for this, and while our leadership does indeed have a hand in identifying and providing for this need, we, as a society also need to identify our individual roles in helping those in need. How many of us actively reach out to friends colleagues, strangers, when we see they're hurting or struggling? Some do, some do not, and this isa major issue. We train ourselves to not get involved. In this digital age where we have access to so much worldwide, we choose to compartmentalize ourselves, and separate ourselves from caring.  
Want to fix the problem? Be involved in solving the root causes. Not everything needs to be solved by the government on our behalf. We all need to be active in this too, because everyone is to blame for what's happening worldwide, really.  
Education, healing, and being human again, in addition to proper gun legislation ,safety and storage, will help reduce the risks of incidents like these. Unfortunately, eliminating them entirely will ultimately always be impossible though

You say this a day after Winnipeg police release a statement that they are averaging 2 calls for stabbings per day. Sounds like your kitchen knife is more dangerous right now.  
Also the shooter in Texas had a long list of mental health related offences as well as an arrest for driving around shooting people with a BB gun. Maybe there were some warning signs that were ignored?  
You have to remember, a pencil can be a weapon. It all depends on who is holding it.

Do you have a link to this information? The last I read, it was stated he had no previously known mental health issues and no criminal record.

Was on CNN last night, They said he had complaints against him for sending lewd messages to girls, a history of wearing boxing gloves and attacking people to start a fight. they also said he was a cross dresser, (like that matters), and was known for shouting profanity at random people, and had complaints of Driving around shooting people with a BB gun

Switzerland is an exception that proves a rule. While gun ownership is high, it's still highly regulated. Virtually all gun owners have had extensive training, and virtually all have gone through the military, meaning they've had background and psychological checks.  
 
That's a vastly different situation than the free-for-all that's in the US, with virtually no regulation and/or training in (too) many states. Gun safety is not burned into their culture like it is for the Swiss.  
 
Here's a good video that touches on Swiss gun culture in a non-partisan way from the very reputable Tom Scott:  
 
https://youtu.be/2h1s6S4kotE

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-marks-memorial-day-weekend-with-at-least-11-mass-shootings/ar-AAXT8k2?ocid=uxbndlbing  
 
Not surprising. Until they get the power out of the hands of the NRA will they be able to do anything about this. More people will die needlessly