Discussions

Enforcing different clothing regulations for people of different genders is hardly likely to stand up under any kind of court challenge. What's appropriate for one should be appropriate for both.  
 
My question is: who looked at the situation and determined that is was even a girl? I mean, prepubescent kids all look the same up top. If I saw a stereotypically girly-looking kid whip his or her top off, and the parents didn't do anything, I would assume that:  
a) the parents are here and can make the call about this better than I can  
b) maybe my assumptions are incorrect about the gender of the kid  
c) drawing attention to the situation when the kid and parents are both okay with it is going to sexualize a situation that was not previous sexual.

Call me old fashioned but I agree with the rule. I have never allowed my daughter at any age to be at the beach topless even as an infant.  
 
Men and women are different. I really don't think the rule should be the same for both genders.

If you don't like the rules, petition to have them changed. Picking and choosing what rules to follow based on which ones you like leads to anarchy.

^^^ you're old fashioned

So the rule is that over age of 4 years girls are told to wear a top. Am I missing something here that states the rules don't apply to them? If they don't like it I am sure Canadian Tire or someone would sell them a nice pool that they could enjoy in their own fenced yard, heck they could wear no clothes then if they wish. Girls are starting to mature as young as 9 years old. I would bet if the child was running around topless at a daycare the parents would be saying something about it.

CommonTater said "If you don't like the rules, petition to have them changed. Picking and choosing what rules to follow based on which ones you like leads to anarchy. "

as Nordberg pointed out the city already lost this challenge so who is it that is picking and choosing the rules?  
 
I also think its a good point about assuming the gender, many boys have long hair ect so i wouldn't automatically assume the child was a boy  
 
honestly it is a sexist rule as it applys to one sex and not the other where no shirt no service type rules apply to both sexes, i just wonder if canadians are ready to change, this kind of tells me that a few are

I would never let my daughter out in public without a top - regardless if she was toddler or child. This may seem sexist but I just don't think it is appropriate.

traveller said "    CommonTater said "If you don't like the rules, petition to have them changed. Picking and choosing what rules to follow based on which ones you like leads to anarchy. " as Nordberg pointed out the city already lost this challenge so who is it that is picking and choosing the rules?     I also think its a good point about assuming the gender, many boys have long hair ect so i wouldn't automatically assume the child was a boy     honestly it is a sexist rule as it applys to one sex and not the other where no shirt no service type rules apply to both sexes, i just wonder if canadians are ready to change, this kind of tells me that a few are "

Still seems to be some discrepancy between public areas such as a street an city/public facilities and parks. not expressing an opinion one way or the other.  
 
I just get sick of people making a public spectacle to make a point rather than addressing things through proper channels. That being said, when proper channels don't work, sometimes a public spectacle is needed.  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada

Nordberg said "What you guys think is appropriate is of no consequence here. The fact is that in Ontario it is not illegal for a female of any age to be topless in public. Interestingly, it has been that way since Gwen Jacobs won that fight after going topless on a hot day in 1991, in the exact same city, Guelph, Ontario.     Wikipedia:Gwen Jacob was acquitted on December 9, 1996 by the Ontario Court of Appeal on the basis that the act of being topless is not in itself a sexual act or indecent. The court held that "there was nothing degrading or dehumanizing in what the appellant did. The scope of her activity was limited and was entirely non-commercial. No one who was offended was forced to continue looking at her" and that furthermore "the community standard of tolerance when all of the relevant circumstances are taken into account" was not exceeded. It is important to note that although Jacob claimed she had a constitutional right, the court did not address this. The Ontario Government decided not to appeal the case to the Supreme Court of Canada, and thus it has remained the prevailing interpretation of the Criminal Code in Ontario. Since then, the court ruling has been tested and upheld several times. R. v. Jacob has been cited in similar decisions in other provinces and by the Supreme Court of Canada in R. v. Labaye, and is taught in Criminal Law courses.     The fact is, the city of Guelph, who already lost this battle with an adult woman, is now going to have it with parents of a child who at this point of development doesn't look any different from the boys.     The city needs to reign itself in, the rule is not enforceable. The parents are right, it's sexualizing a situation that needn't be.     "

I am curious when this 8 year old becomes older will her parents then make her put a top on or will they be open to having her go around with no top on. I bet if she was developing up top the parents would have a different outlook.

Men and women (or in this case, boys and girls ) have different private parts, just the way it is. I don't think it's appropriate for either sex to go around showing them. So for me, this means that girls wear shirts.  
 

I STILL have the photos of my sister and I going topless (GASP!!) in public at the beach near our cottage. And THIS was way back when women couldn't even wear SHORTS without being fined and thrown into jail as my aunt was. If GIRLS have to cover up then both females and MALES have to cover up as well because, who knows, "someone" might think that an 8-year-old boy with no top on is too "sexual". And if the city of Guelph has ALREADY lost a court case with a grown woman going topless, then they should just make the rules the same for EVERYONE.

CommonTater said "    traveller said "    CommonTater said "If you don't like the rules, petition to have them changed. Picking and choosing what rules to follow based on which ones you like leads to anarchy. " as Nordberg pointed out the city already lost this challenge so who is it that is picking and choosing the rules?     I also think its a good point about assuming the gender, many boys have long hair ect so i wouldn't automatically assume the child was a boy     honestly it is a sexist rule as it applys to one sex and not the other where no shirt no service type rules apply to both sexes, i just wonder if canadians are ready to change, this kind of tells me that a few are " Still seems to be some discrepancy between public areas such as a street an city/public facilities and parks. not expressing an opinion one way or the other.     I just get sick of people making a public spectacle to make a point rather than addressing things through proper channels. That being said, when proper channels don't work, sometimes a public spectacle is needed.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada "

i cant think of what the proper channels would be? i guess you could go and ask to speak to whoever made the policy, other then that im not sure where you would appeal without making a spectacle  
 
im sure more people would have an issue with women or girls who are developed going topless but other countries find it fine so i image one day we will too

People need to realize that men and women are different. We are different. Get over it. We have different bodies, different hormones, different sex organs.  
 
Anyone fighting to allow their per-pubescent daughter the right to go topless needs to give their head a shake and stoop using their child to a) get attention or b) forward their own agenda.  
 
This is not a new argument, we as a society have just lost our common sense. We are so worried about offending anyone or making anyone feel inferior for fear of ending up in court that we start pretending everyone is the same. We are not. Men and women are different. My 3 year old son runs around my back yard naked, just the same as my 3 year old daughter did. Now that she is 9, I teach her to respect her body, her privacy and social awareness. she is a young woman, not a toddler and needs to act like it...  
 
Because, men and women ARE different and people need to start realizing that being different is not a bad thing and doesn't mean that one gender is better than another, we are just different and that is OK.  
 
Get over it. And stop wasting court time and government money on such trivial matters.  

to all of you old fashioned people who would not let your daughters be as free as your sons, think about how things have already changed for women/girls, and how you might be holding them back...  
 
examples:  
 
1)women were not allowed to vote  
Now they can, is it better now or then?  
 
2) women were not allowed in medical school  
Now they can, is it better now or then?  
 
So, should women/girls be treated differently then men/boys?  
Should there be different rules based on gender?  
 
There are women with small breasts, and there are men with large breasts, who gets to decide when breasts are sexualized?  
 
And to those people who would not let their daughter go topless, are you going to let your daughter vote? or go to medical school? or do any of the other things that used to be restricted to men?  
 
I know my list is not exhaustive but it is just a start. Shall we debate the rules of the past or deal with the current laws and let men and women be equal?

We teach our daughters modesty and respect only after hormones kick in? One month they can roam free - the other they cover up? Because it is all about development because treating them differently is discriminatory at any age? Um ok....  
 
 
Anonymous.... Equal does not mean the same. Stop equating differences with equality. I am as equal to any man in any way but am I the same? No friggen way and I don't want to be. I am a strong successful woman who is proud to be a woman. Am I equal to a man - yep but I sure as hell don't want to be the same.  
 
People are so offended at being treated differently because they assume it means they are inferior - perhaps we should just change our attitudes and start realizing that we are all different and start celebrating those differences instead of pretending they don't exist.  
 
I don't have a penis I have a vagina and I have breasts. I don't want you to see my breasts and vagina any more than I want to see your penis. doesn't mean we are unequal - actually I have two to your one that make me superior ;)  
 
Just kidding.  
 
But it is a ridiculous argument. Unless you are arguing that you want your 13 year old, 16 year old, 10 year old daughter to be allowed to take off her shirt at the local water park because the boys do. Are you? Are you ok with that? Or is this just a political argumentof what 'should be' but what you don't 'really ' believe in enough to support?

Your examples are a bit extreme for me not allowing my daughter to run topless. So am I supposed to teach my daughter that it will be okay to change in front of the window because - boobs are just boobs? Absolutely not. I will teach her to not show her chest and to keep that part private from public. You and I have completely different opinions on the matter and Ebrandon is to offer our opinions. For you to hint that I will my teach my daughter not to vote or become a professional in life just because I will teach her it is not proper to go around flashing her chest, is absurd. Yes times are changing and women were suppressed but showing your chest in public is not a form of getting out of that! Every animal has evolved over time and the breasts are there to feed our babies. However I had read before that breasts on women have evolved to be larger than other mammals for sexual reasons. I don't completely agree with this but it's just a point I thought I'd mention to show that we possibly have breasts for reasons other than feeding our babies.  
I just don't think girls should be in public without a top on, is all.

I would have no problem with my children male or female going topless. And as i said some men have breasts, like me, and i can go topless, should i have to 'cover up' just because i have some extra fat deposits where i have nipples?  
 
not saying men and women are not different, but i find the biggest difference when looking at both genders nude is between the legs (ie penis vs vagina). My wife and I both have breasts, and pretty much everything else externally is the same except between the legs. All three of my kids have nipples, male and female, we teach our kids not to be ashamed of their bodies by not being ashamed of our bodies. We are not perfect, but going naked at home is not uncommon especially between bedroom and bathroom. So topless is not a big deal. If my daughter decides to go topless, its her choice.  
 
If someone else's daughter decides to go topless, it is between that daughter and her parents. If the law says its ok for females to go topless, why not follow that law? (personal choice to remove top, not forced toplessness)

anonymous11111 said "I would have no problem with my children male or female going topless. And as i said some men have breasts, like me, and i can go topless, should i have to 'cover up' just because i have some extra fat deposits where i have nipples?     not saying men and women are not different, but i find the biggest difference when looking at both genders nude is between the legs (ie penis vs vagina). My wife and I both have breasts, and pretty much everything else externally is the same except between the legs. All three of my kids have nipples, male and female, we teach our kids not to be ashamed of their bodies by not being ashamed of our bodies. We are not perfect, but going naked at home is not uncommon especially between bedroom and bathroom. So topless is not a big deal. If my daughter decides to go topless, its her choice.     If someone else's daughter decides to go topless, it is between that daughter and her parents. If the law says its ok for females to go topless, why not follow that law? (personal choice to remove top, not forced toplessness) "

Not sure but I am guessing that most men would prefer look at your wife's breasts than yours if so than yours aren't as exciting than your wife's meaning woman and man are difference.

Breasts, specifically women's breasts, are highly sexualized in today's society.  
 
There are countless examples of this - check out some current magazine covers. Look in stores like La Senza.  
From a young age, we are shown boobs in a sexual way - pushup bras, low cut shirts as examples.  
Women have the right to remove their shirt in public just as men do. I think they need to understand the kind of attention that may attract whether they want it or not.  
As much as I support women and equality, I guess I am old fashioned...I don't really want to go to the beach and see boobs everywhere!

Nordberg said "Teach our daughters modesty?     What the hell is modesty? Whenever I see the word modesty, it is always about a female covering up her body so that males do not see it. I know for a fact Butterfly that you do not support the contention that females are responsible for males that cannot control themselves around females. A number of years ago you and I argued vehemently against people who held that females were somehow responsible for their own assaults. How do you not make the connection that those attitudes are a direct result of the body shaming that we direct almost exclusively at the female body.     Nobody is asking you to go topless. If you do not want someone to see your breasts, then they should not see them. I'm male and I usually wear a top at the beach, but if I want to remove it, I damn well will.     If a 10, 13, or 16 year old female person wants to take her shirt off at the local pool where all the boys are also topless, then who in the hell are you to tell her she cannot? In this society it would take a lot of personal conviction to do that, especially at that age. Teach your daughter modesty if you want, leave other people's daughters alone.     I would think that you have better things to do than be the body police.         Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-23 20:04:59"

Just because I think we should embrace our differences and that women should not be slut shamed or be held responsible for the actions of men because of how they dress (date rape was the topic we were debating if I remember correctly) does not mean I think women should be running around topless.  
 
Nor do I believe that it is appropriate for my 9 year old daughter to. Modesty and shame are very different things - Just because I want her to cover her breasts does not mean I teach her to be ashamed of her body.  
 
I mean why stop at breasts? Why not just allow total genital nudity - I mean why shouldn't men be allowed to have it all hang out? It is just an organ, nothing to be ashamed of....  
 
 
 
Edited by Butterflymbca, 2015-06-24 10:33:22

This is a discussion on E-Brandon - where everyone's opinions matter. Just because a court in another province makes a decision doesn't mean we can't discuss it or disagree does it?  
 
If you think it is appropriate to allow your 8, 18 or 38 year old daughter to go topless, by all means - have at it. And if it makes you feel better to tell society that breasts are not sexualized because a court said so, than have at that too. Knock yourself out.  
 
I, in teh meantime will be teaching my children tat men and women are different - equal but different and that it is wonderful to be different instead of insisting we are all the same. Other women can demand to be treated like men, I will enjoy being a woman.

North American society as a whole is very conservative when it comes to nudity. As a person who has lived in Europe and Canada I can tell you that the differences in the attitude of the exposed breast are quite extreme. In my opinion the stigma is negligible in most countries in Europe as an exposed breast is the norm on a beach ect. Walking down the street I could see it still causing issues but just like most things there is an appropriate time and place. Canada has not had the exposure, pardon the pun, and therefore it is still frowned upon. It is my opinion to raise your children to be carefree and respect their bodies and that all nudity does in the society we live in is turn heads and sometimes garners unwanted attention. Nudity in Canada is sexualised no matter what spin we put on it.

100% that breasts in this country are sexualized. So much so that even a pre-pubescent girls breasts are so, despite the fact that in general at that age there is no difference whatsoever between a female/male breasts.

To me this discussion shouldn't be about a persons rights, or gender equality. It should be about protecting our children. Do you not think that an 8 year old girl without a shirt is appealing to a pedophile??? Think about it. Unfortunately we have to consider such things in this day and age. Consider the possible ramifications, not matter how remote they are.

i wondered how long it would take to bring the pedophile argument out lol but i agree with norburg again that a shirt will not protect children from the risk just as burkas dont, that also brings in the modesty discussion and do believe that modesty does seem to be always about telling girls to cover up so boys dont have to control themselves but since i am a product of canadian society i still would have a hard time going topless unless more woemn did  
 
BF- different but equal applies to everyone boys and girls as NO one is the same in any regards, we all have different all talents and strengths, no matter our gender. i also dont believe i have to be different then a man to be a woman, my gender doesn't change do to my actions, i know many women who are very mechanical and many boys who aren't and i think it is wrong for society to say you have to be one way to fit into your gender role, that carries on to behaviors like going topless too imo and while i may have a touch of a hypocritical attitude because of the influences of society in theory i believe there should be no difference between men and women when it comes to rules and laws, as ontario ruled in 96, and im ok with changing my attitude as society changes to a less segregated world

There have been a few comments about women baring their breasts in other countries, and I think that maybe the acceptance of that, is some places have a bit more maturity when it come to sex and sexuality.  
Males, after or during puberty, begin to look at women differently, and the noticing of breasts, as well as hips and waists are a part of it. I think if we were to all act in a mature way then women going topless would not be an issue, but sometimes sexuality isn't all the civilized and women as well as men understand this. There is a part of us that wants the species to survive and when a young lady developers breasts she becomes parts of that mentality whether she wishes to or not, and the law in Guelph takes effect at fou years old, which in my opinion might be a bit young, but puberty sometimes happens before people have developed mentally, and in a way this law protects from exploitation in whatever form it could happen.  
 
This is just my opinion but between when puberty starts and maybe the age at which one has developed a mature attitude about sexuality, it would be best to keep covered up, although this could be easily argued if one looked at the development of female curves, it is sexual so do we try and hide it as well.

Leave the equality argument for another instance, this is about safety! Think about it, if girls are allowed to go topless at a public swimming pool, the wrong sort of people are going to become attracted to that location. Do you really want to encourage predators to hang around the public pool endangering all the children there?? If you want your little girl to expose a part of her body that is known to be sexualized, go for it, but do it in the private, not a public location where you can endanger not only your own child but other children there as well.

TGC said "To me this discussion shouldn't be about a persons rights, or gender equality. It should be about protecting our children. Do you not think that an 8 year old girl without a shirt is appealing to a pedophile??? Think about it. Unfortunately we have to consider such things in this day and age. Consider the possible ramifications, not matter how remote they are. "

This sounds incredibly similar to victim blaming, rather than putting the onus on the mentally ill adult who is looking at a child thinking those completely inappropriate thoughts.

It is not about victim blaming - it is about being a responsible parent. Girls of any age going topless are not teh norm in our society. So any girl doing so will stand out and become a spectacle. Why would you do that to your child just to validate a political view?  
 
Are women's breasts be sexualized? A billion dollars a year at Victoria's Secret says yes, regardless of what any court says. You can argue that they shouldn't be, that society should be better, that men shouldn't see women that way all you want but I will keep my should arguments for an online debate and not put my child in the center of it.