Discussions

Unvaxxed ?

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

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1/9/2022 at 2:24 PM

Home Slice said "All the charts and graphs are nice to look at and make our own deductions from but in the meantime the virus races on and being unvaxed doesn’t help the situation. The longer the virus stays around the more likely it is that we may get yet another variant. Then what? Start over again? It just continues to loop until we are all on the same page. So far that looks like it will never happen. "
Yes I firmly agree with you. Much time (over two years ) has been wasted on throwing statistics around. Officials and medical leaders know how to reduce virus spread and that should be priority number one for everyone.
samblam
Joined: This month
Posts: 3

samblam
Joined: This month
Posts: 3

daily case percentages
1/10/2022 at 9:47 AM

why did they stop posting the daily percentages of daily cases based on vac status

Edited by samblam, 2022-01-10 09:47:52
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
1/10/2022 at 10:39 AM

samblam said "why did they stop posting the daily percentages of daily cases based on vac status

Edited by samblam, 2022-01-10 09:47:52"
Because it is irrelevant. All we need to know are case numbers and icu bed numbers. Beyond that it is up those of us who are able to get ourselves fully vaccinated and obey public health rules and guidelines.
Rick999
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 20

Rick999
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 20

COVID-19
1/10/2022 at 10:44 AM

I am not opposed to these vaccinations. I see the help they are doing, but here in Canada we are and still should be free to make these decisions. I am a strong believer in " home of the free". People before us have given a lot more to see that we have and maintain these freedoms to choose. We should not bash the "unvaxxed" anymore than we should not bash a person for different religious beliefs or different skin color. Currently in the US this decision to force vaccination is with the Supreme Court as an infringement on a peoples rights and freedoms. I hope our Governments, local and Federal are watching this closely.
samblam
Joined: This month
Posts: 3

samblam
Joined: This month
Posts: 3

why
1/10/2022 at 11:10 AM

why is it irrelevant? They used to post it until the tables turned on their counts of cases of the vaccinated. I am vaxed by the way
TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

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1/10/2022 at 12:09 PM

Rick999 said "I am not opposed to these vaccinations. I see the help they are doing, but here in Canada we are and still should be free to make these decisions. I am a strong believer in " home of the free". People before us have given a lot more to see that we have and maintain these freedoms to choose. We should not bash the "unvaxxed" anymore than we should not bash a person for different religious beliefs or different skin color. Currently in the US this decision to force vaccination is with the Supreme Court as an infringement on a peoples rights and freedoms. I hope our Governments, local and Federal are watching this closely. "
Religious beliefs and skin color don't overload our hospitals or put other people at risk for getting sick. Our freedoms to choose do have limits when the choices have negative effects on others. For example, we can't street race on public roads.

Edited by TheBrofessor, 2022-01-10 12:28:00
Millenial
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 212

Millenial
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 212

.
1/10/2022 at 12:44 PM

BrookeWells said ""
I'm sorry, who admitted that the vaccine doesn't work? Don't say anything at all if you are going to spread blatant lies. The proof is in the pudding that the vaccine is doing its job of reducing severe cases of covid and keeping people out of the hospitals. In Manitoba, unvaccinated individuals are 26(!) times more likely to be admitted to the hospital ICU with covid. (https://www.gov.mb.ca/covid19/updates/cases.html)

Stop blatantly lying to people in such a disgusting way.

Edited by Millenial, 2022-01-10 12:48:09
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

I'm sorry
1/10/2022 at 1:04 PM

Measures to tackle a virulent pandemic that threatens stability of the healthcare system and continues to cause suffering as it spreads carries a much higher priority than individual rights and freedoms as it rightly should.
GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

...
1/10/2022 at 1:08 PM

Rick999 said "I am not opposed to these vaccinations. I see the help they are doing, but here in Canada we are and still should be free to make these decisions. I am a strong believer in " home of the free". People before us have given a lot more to see that we have and maintain these freedoms to choose. We should not bash the "unvaxxed" anymore than we should not bash a person for different religious beliefs or different skin color. Currently in the US this decision to force vaccination is with the Supreme Court as an infringement on a peoples rights and freedoms. I hope our Governments, local and Federal are watching this closely. "
It sounds like you're opposed to the vaccinations and need a lesson in how the Canadian Charter differs from the US Constitution.

You'd feel at home south of the border. I for one, want the suffering to be over. It's a public health crisis, and the end comes through vaccination.

Get your shot, mask up, and do your part. Be a good citizen.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Daily
1/10/2022 at 2:13 PM

samblam said "why is it irrelevant? They used to post it until the tables turned on their counts of cases of the vaccinated. I am vaxed by the way "
They do still post that breakdown of cases in the not fully vaxxed. Not in today's release for whatever reason, but see daily bulletins for Friday or Wednesday or days previous.

Focus at this point is especially on hospitalizations and ICU, and the fact that the data shows a significant outsized portion of unvaxxed in the hospital with Covid compared to the portion of fully vaxxed that are in the hospital. The threat to our medical system of more hospitaliztions and ICU bed needs has always been primary from Covid Day 1 and continues to be. As per above, some deceptively play with these numbers to try to minimize the fact that month after month, jursdiction after jurisdiction it's clear that vaccines significantly reduce serious and severe outcomes. In Manitoba the fact that more 300,000 are unvaxxed has us as a province less protected and more at risk than we need to be.
That data is included in detail at the link below along with indication that as of now the unvaxxed are:
-2x more likely to get Covid
-7x more likely to be hospitalized with Covid
-26x more likely to be admitted to an ICU with Covid
-14x more likely to die with Covid

https://manitoba.ca/covid19/index.html
HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

Please tell us
1/10/2022 at 5:28 PM

Farmergeorge said "Measures to tackle a virulent pandemic that threatens stability of the healthcare system and continues to cause suffering as it spreads carries a much higher priority than individual rights and freedoms as it rightly should. "
Who should be entrusted to make the decisions as to when our personal rights and freedoms in the charter are to be superseded and removed?
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
1/10/2022 at 5:37 PM

HopeI'mWrong said "Who should be entrusted to make the decisions as to when our personal rights and freedoms in the charter are to be superseded and removed? "
Our democratically elected federal Government and it’s advisories. It isn’t a perfect system but it’s the best we have.

Edited by Farmergeorge, 2022-01-10 17:47:57
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Trust
1/10/2022 at 6:08 PM

HopeI'mWrong said "Who should be entrusted to make the decisions as to when our personal rights and freedoms in the charter are to be superseded and removed? "
Tons of trust in gov the make the right calls on that one.
In an instance where for whatever reason one perceives there to be a need for another check, a neutral court system with its checks and balances is always there to hear and rule as it was on this one in our very own province:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-churches-charter-challenge-covid-decision-1.6217925

While any case will have its own merits and facts to be judged on and there will be instances in history where that check is especially necessary, generally speaking there have been times during the pandemic where I've felt bad that gov has had to deal with some that have what seems to be a mis-aligned sense for rights and misaligned sense for facts on Covid that have made making decisions to protect folks more complicated than it might need to be.
The mandatory vaccine discussion has been initiated from the fed level recently as per:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/duclos-mandatory-vaccination-policies-on-way-1.6307398
It sounds like it will be a by-province issue, with at least AB and Sask from what I've seen already saying they won't go there. If things do head in that direction in this province, I see no reason not to trust that our system of checks and balances will make sure that whatever takes place is right by the law that would apply.
B_K
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2

B_K
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2

Agreed
1/11/2022 at 10:55 AM

I am a firm believer that it is up to the individual
to take the protective measure that they deem necessary for them selves. No one, government or individual, has a right to say how we should treat out bodies. If the unvaccinated refuse the vaccine that is their right. “My Body My Choice” ?
aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

your body or mine?
1/11/2022 at 11:33 AM

B_K said "I am a firm believer that it is up to the individual
to take the protective measure that they deem necessary for them selves. No one, government or individual, has a right to say how we should treat out bodies. If the unvaccinated refuse the vaccine that is their right. “My Body My Choice” ? "
OK, um, but they DO have a right to regulate how your actions affect others. Particularly where there is a risk of harm.

To be extremely clear about this, there is only one way that I can catch COVID. From someone else who is carrying it. There is no other way. Vaccines are proven to reduce everyone's risk of catching it (not to zero, but to something much less than if unvaccinated), and to reduce the likelihood of transmission to others if you do get it. So any consideration of a vaccine mandate would be supported by the 'public good' (reducing risk to others) outweighing individual rights. As much as you believe the Constitution somehow gives you absolute rights (it doesn't), it also requires the government to take actions it deems necessary to protect other people's rights to be free from harm by the choices individuals make.

Governments also have a responsibility to try to protect the integrity of the health care system so that it is there for all the other needs that are unrelated to COVID. So even indirectly, everyone who has a right to be unvaccinated, must therefore also have a right to get sick (sicker than the vaccinated), a right to clog up our health care system when there is a simple, known, effective way to reduce this, and a right to take the space others need for other potentially life-saving services. Well, this is where our government has a responsibility to determine what the appropriate balance of rights is.

"My body, my choice"? Or "My body, your choice"?
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Health tax
1/11/2022 at 1:20 PM

Quebec with an interesting approach to the conundrum of the unvaccinated requiring a disproportionate amount of medical system resources to those who have followed public health advice and been fully vaccinated. Introducing a health tax for the unvaccinated. Preserves a right to make a choice, and rationally sure does make some sense when you consider the much higher hospitalization rate in the unvaccinated. Those funds could then circle back into helping to scale up a province's medical system to best keep up with the extra demand that the data shows comes with those choices...

https://globalnews.ca/news/8503151/quebec-to-impose-a-tax-on-people-who-are-unvaccinated-from-covid-19/
lovingmylife
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 91

lovingmylife
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 91

100% agree with ABUFAMEMBER
1/11/2022 at 2:06 PM

I am a firm believer in that it is NOT up to each individual to make their choice when we're dealing with a global health crisis. The evidence this doesn't make common sense is supported every single day by what is going on with COVID. Thank you for stating the issue so well ABUFAMEMBER.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Health tax
1/11/2022 at 4:33 PM

CBC News. Premier Legault announces introduction of a health tax soon for Quebecers who have not received one dose of covid vaccine unless they have a valid Medical exemption.
Looking forward to something of this nature being introduced in Manitoba, even the rest of Canada.
MPH
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 174

MPH
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 174

..
1/11/2022 at 4:57 PM

Farmergeorge said "CBC News. Premier Legault announces introduction of a health tax soon for Quebecers who have not received one dose of covid vaccine unless they have a valid Medical exemption.
Looking forward to something of this nature being introduced in Manitoba, even the rest of Canada. "
I say fine. As long as smokers, obese people, drinkers, risk-takers etc. are also forced to pay a health tax.

This is a new low for Quebec and would undoubtedly be so for any other province.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
1/11/2022 at 5:16 PM

MPH said "I say fine. As long as smokers, obese people, drinkers, risk-takers etc. are also forced to pay a health tax.

This is a new low for Quebec and would undoubtedly be so for any other province. "
Yo are making feeble excuses to oppose sensible and necessary policy designed to fight a global pandemic.
Wotdyuno
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 133

Wotdyuno
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 133

Smokers and Drinkers???
1/11/2022 at 5:27 PM

Since when was illness from smoking, drinking or being overweight CONTAGIOUS!!! It makes me so mad when people say that. And as for smoking in particular, the government banned smoking in public places to protect other people’s health. There is also tax on cigarettes and alcohol. Do not compare these to Covid.
MPH
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 174

MPH
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 174

...
1/11/2022 at 5:34 PM

Farmergeorge said "Yo are making feeble excuses to oppose sensible and necessary policy designed to fight a global pandemic. "
Do not agree.

This is neither sensible nor necessary.

Nor will it solve the problem. People who so far have been opposed will rather pay a tax than choose to take the vaccine. You are talking about people who possibly fear the vaccine and don't trust the government. A government imposing more regulations upon them will only cause further divide than already exists.

I am double-vaccinated myself. If the Manitoba government were to impose this rule, I would rather pay more taxes than receive the third shot. Quebec's proposed regulations should never be acceptable in Canada.
aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

another perspective
1/11/2022 at 6:44 PM

MPH said "Do not agree.

This is neither sensible nor necessary.

Nor will it solve the problem. People who so far have been opposed will rather pay a tax than choose to take the vaccine. You are talking about people who possibly fear the vaccine and don't trust the government. A government imposing more regulations upon them will only cause further divide than already exists.

I am double-vaccinated myself. If the Manitoba government were to impose this rule, I would rather pay more taxes than receive the third shot. Quebec's proposed regulations should never be acceptable in Canada. "
Look at this from another perspective. We already pay taxes toward our health system, among other things. But the taxes we pay are based on what is the otherwise 'normal' load on the system (including ailments due to obesity, accidents resulting from risky behaviour, etc. etc. - all at 'normal' rates, roughly speaking, predictable statistically). COVID, and Omicron in particular, have had such a devastatingly disproportionate impact on our health care system compared to anything else we have had to cope with in recent memory, on such a short timeline, that provinces' (and the federal government) resources are stretched to the point that they can't cope. The government of Quebec is trying to target an incentive directly at the highest risk group, to have the most immediate impact easing the burden on the system. But for those who still refuse, they end up paying a 'premium' for the disproportionate risk they pose to the system compared to the vaccinated. Is it a perfect solution? No, but then, what is? It's no more unfair than expecting everyone who is doing the 'right' thing, reducing contacts, getting vaccinated, making sacrifices, who would then otherwise have to share equally the burden of the problem.

So given the alternatives, for many, this is indeed a sensible compromise. Just as the tax on cigarettes and alcohol is away to shift a bit more of the cost of those problems to the people who partake. Just as the cost of increased risk due to dangerous driving is borne by those who get tickets for driving dangerously. And on and on. It is sensible for the system to shift the burden (and cost) to those who, by choice, increase the risk to others when the alternative is simple, easy, and free. Necessary? Maybe not. Depends how you define necessary. On balance, in the greater public interest (of health and safety), I think many would say that is toward the 'necessary' end of the spectrum.
Home Slice
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1360

Home Slice
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1360

Unvaxed
1/11/2022 at 8:20 PM

. Amen to your post. .
houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

Re: Health Tax
1/11/2022 at 11:18 PM

Adam said "
Quebec with an interesting approach to the conundrum of the unvaccinated requiring a disproportionate amount of medical system resources to those who have followed public health advice and been fully vaccinated. Introducing a health tax for the unvaccinated. Preserves a right to make a choice, and rationally sure does make some sense when you consider the much higher hospitalization rate in the unvaccinated. Those funds could then circle back into helping to scale up a province's medical system to best keep up with the extra demand that the data shows comes with those choices...

https://globalnews.ca/news/8503151/quebec-to-impose-a-tax-on-people-who-are-unvaccinated-from-covid-19/
"
Would there be an option to opt out the health tax and not receive treatment for Covid-19 if they are unvaccinated and do meet said qualifications?

If lawyers can write up a form one would sign that states they would not undergo C19 treatment if they choose not to?

Or, have the form say one would have to pay for treatment through their insurance program, etc?

Now is not the time to panic.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
1/11/2022 at 11:43 PM

houriete22 said "Would there be an option to opt out the health tax and not receive treatment for Covid-19 if they are unvaccinated and do meet said qualifications?

If lawyers can write up a form one would sign that states they would not undergo C19 treatment if they choose not to?

Or, have the form say one would have to pay for treatment through their insurance program, etc?

Now is not the time to panic. "
I think it’s pretty much a government intention to forcefully encourage residents to get at least one vaccine shot without an actual vaccine mandate.
houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

Forced?
1/12/2022 at 12:10 AM

Farmergeorge said "I think it’s pretty much a government intention to forcefully encourage residents to get at least one vaccine shot without an actual vaccine mandate. "
Regarding force, if one were to be forced, they would have no choice in choosing not to being vaccinated. An example would be, if one is forced with no other options, they would have no choice by default of the situation to choose otherwise. It sure sounds like an intention to get C19 under control.

Bottom line is, if I forced you to do something, that would mean you have no choice. I have no interests in forcing anyone to do anything. For all I know, they could be pretending to act sick. If I forced someone to respect my space and if they intrude on my space without my permission, things would escalate. Same as if I were to force the government to respect my rights, they'd have no options BUT to respect my rights, after all didn't the PC's say they weren't going to implement mandatory vaccinations? The Bloc Quebecois can just give up power, but no, these politicians seem to be grey area thinking when it comes to their intentions.

Let's have Mr. Maguire stand up for the Constitutional rights of us in Parliament, let's hope he and his party that got voted in will honour their duties and obligations. Or I see his votes potentially declining if he somehow just forgets to i:nclude us in his work. I see he's very quick to send out survey's that entail firing back at J.T's utopia.

I see this not ending very good for some people.

Edited by houriete22, 2022-01-12 00:38:25
Kida

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

Kida
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

What abou the other people
1/12/2022 at 3:20 AM

What about the people waiting and waiting for treatment and diagnostic testing?? Not to mention all the people on dialysis that are not making it as they have to go the hospital for treatments and getting sick.

I myself have a poor immune system and have gotten sick twice since this has started and I stay home as much as possible. Thankfully I haven't had to be hospitalized. I am fully vaxxed. I do need scans though because of possible growths but cannot because of the hospitals status. I wasn't even able to complete my physical therapy.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
1/12/2022 at 7:12 AM

houriete22 said "Regarding force, if one were to be forced, they would have no choice in choosing not to being vaccinated. An example would be, if one is forced with no other options, they would have no choice by default of the situation to choose otherwise. It sure sounds like an intention to get C19 under control.

Bottom line is, if I forced you to do something, that would mean you have no choice. I have no interests in forcing anyone to do anything. For all I know, they could be pretending to act sick. If I forced someone to respect my space and if they intrude on my space without my permission, things would escalate. Same as if I were to force the government to respect my rights, they'd have no options BUT to respect my rights, after all didn't the PC's say they weren't going to implement mandatory vaccinations? The Bloc Quebecois can just give up power, but no, these politicians seem to be grey area thinking when it comes to their intentions.

Let's have Mr. Maguire stand up for the Constitutional rights of us in Parliament, let's hope he and his party that got voted in will honour their duties and obligations. Or I see his votes potentially declining if he somehow just forgets to i:nclude us in his work. I see he's very quick to send out survey's that entail firing back at J.T's utopia.

I see this not ending very good for some people.

Edited by houriete22, 2022-01-12 00:38:25"
If measures such as these to encourage more people to do the right thing and get vaccinated don’t prove effective enough than government will absolutely have to mandate vaccination. It’s already being discussed at federal level and they may be left with no other choice, public health must be priority number 1.
As far as parties or certain provincial governments rejecting such proposals, I wouldn’t put much faith in that. Nothing u- turns faster than a politician .
If a subsection of society ( that is medically able) were to think of those around them and their families then they would do the right thing and get themselves vaccinated. Then all of this could be avoided.
Winter123
Joined: This month
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Winter123
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snowball
1/12/2022 at 7:31 AM

I hear ya. Was finally called Thursday last week for my surgery to be this Thursday. Talked to them Monday and got all my instructions. Got the call yesterday that it is now canceled. She said she has absolutely no idea how much longer it’s going to be. I have been waiting since spring. It’s an in/out day surgery. I sure hope leaving it this long doesn’t create more issues.

It makes me upset that there are beds being taken up by people who may not have needed them if they would have just got their vaccine.