Discussions

aBUFAmember said "    Trevor said "    aBUFAmember said "Oh, and it depends on your definition of 'fair'. We seem to have many different opinions on this. " Obviously we have different definitions, so I'll ask you this.     How is it fair to charge 2 people different rates for the exact same service?? " It's a matter of your point of view. You clearly see it only as "the service I use". I see a lot of what the city provides as a public good that benefits us all (fire, police, roads, etc.). Sure, there are some things that are easier to see directly how much each of us uses, but there is also a lot that is not so clear. So what I believe is fair is that people pay according to their means. To me, that is fair for public goods. Unfortunately, using property value/tax is a crude way to determine that, for reasons others have already pointed out (but the city doesn't have any other way to gauge our means - no individual/household income data). And unfortunately not everything the city does is purely public good vs purely individual service. So we'll have to accept that the system isn't perfect. But I believe what we have is reasonable, even if it's not the best. It is obvious we disagree on that. But whether you like it or not, this is the rationale for the property tax system - which is the question that started this discussion. "

No, we see it pretty much the same way. I don't see it as the services I use, but the services WE ALL use...  
 
The police, fire, EMS protect us all equally, regardless of our income.  
We all get our streets cleaned, and drive on the same road, regardless of our income.  
We all get our garbage and recycling picked up, regardless of our income.  
We all walk under the same street lights and on the same sidewalks, regardless of our income.  
 
I suppose you think water bill should be attached to income or property tax too??  
 
As I said before in this thread, we all use the exact same services, the same amount, and should therefore pay the same amount to use them. And just for the record, I'm well aware that my personal property taxes would likely go up if in this system.  
 
The way you want to do it removes incentive to better oneself. You want to penalize people for earning a good living and owning a nice house. And that's where socialism breaks down: it fails when you run out of other people's money.

Trevor said "    aBUFAmember said "    Trevor said "    aBUFAmember said "Oh, and it depends on your definition of 'fair'. We seem to have many different opinions on this. " Obviously we have different definitions, so I'll ask you this.     How is it fair to charge 2 people different rates for the exact same service?? " It's a matter of your point of view. You clearly see it only as "the service I use". I see a lot of what the city provides as a public good that benefits us all (fire, police, roads, etc.). Sure, there are some things that are easier to see directly how much each of us uses, but there is also a lot that is not so clear. So what I believe is fair is that people pay according to their means. To me, that is fair for public goods. Unfortunately, using property value/tax is a crude way to determine that, for reasons others have already pointed out (but the city doesn't have any other way to gauge our means - no individual/household income data). And unfortunately not everything the city does is purely public good vs purely individual service. So we'll have to accept that the system isn't perfect. But I believe what we have is reasonable, even if it's not the best. It is obvious we disagree on that. But whether you like it or not, this is the rationale for the property tax system - which is the question that started this discussion. " No, we see it pretty much the same way. I don't see it as the services I use, but the services WE ALL use...     The police, fire, EMS protect us all equally, regardless of our income.   We all get our streets cleaned, and drive on the same road, regardless of our income.   We all get our garbage and recycling picked up, regardless of our income.   We all walk under the same street lights and on the same sidewalks, regardless of our income.     I suppose you think water bill should be attached to income or property tax too??     As I said before in this thread, we all use the exact same services, the same amount, and should therefore pay the same amount to use them. And just for the record, I'm well aware that my personal property taxes would likely go up if in this system.     The way you want to do it removes incentive to better oneself. You want to penalize people for earning a good living and owning a nice house. And that's where socialism breaks down: it fails when you run out of other people's money. "

OK, I think I understand you a little better now. But I disagree. We don't all use the same amount of garbage collection - some people make more garbage than others. We don't all use the same amount of road services - some people drive a lot more than others. The list goes on. And it sounds like you're equating the property tax system with socialism. That's a bit simplistic. And anyway, it certainly doesn't 'penalize' you for doing well, nor take away any incentive to better yourself. As people get richer, and pay more taxes (income, property, whatever) they still have 'more' and are better off - eat better, live in nicer houses, drive nicer cars, have more toys, etc.  
 
But again, to emphasize, I didn't start responding in this thread with any value proposition. I just offered an explanation of why we have the property tax system that we have - what is the rationale behind it. Naturally we can have different opinions of it.