Discussions

Some would say that the education provided in Manitoba public schools is substandard compared to other provinces and an under funding argument cannot be used to explain that. Also, there is a difference of programming available between urban areas and small rural areas.  
 
As for the bigot argument, I would like to think that a rogue bigot posse would be prevented from taking over the schools but, maybe I am naive.  
 
Edited by CommonTater, 2016-02-27 18:14:55

Tater said "Many people don't get hired because they don't fit the preconceived notions about what a competent teacher looks like"  
 
Tater, can you provide a source to back this up, or is it just one of your "made up facts" ?  
 
I asked a friend of mine who has hired many teachers and he laughed out loud at your suggestion. He said that he never knew how competent someone was based on their appearance. He said the interview and reference checks helped to establish that. He also said his mission was always to hire the person who would have the greatest positive impact on the students' learning, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation or original language.

But I think im happy to let faculty of education and experts figure out if there's a problem. And as you said, the interview is important... The hiring process can have many pitfalls and an experienced hr person will acknowledge that those that do the hiring can be affected by their own bias.  
 
As for First Nations education, not only do they receive LESS funding per student in an environment that is more expensive, but the per student funding also includes capital funding (such as to build and maintain buildings). There is NO WAY that a rural school in the rest of Canada could provide a provincial curriculum with that low of funding.  
 
That leaves less money to pay teachers, in a place where it typically costs more to live and where teachers may stay only for a short time and/or experience significant culture shock. Even the interview process is expensive, often flying in applicants to Winnipeg for interviews, and I've talked to more than one young teacher who knew they weren't goung to take the job but just went for the free trip.  
 
It is NOT a fair comparison with rural schools in most of Canada.

Say I accept your proposal that there is under funding on reserve and then say I accept your proposal that this under funding is the result of systemic racism. Where are the qualified First Nations applicants coming from who are being discriminated against during the teacher hiring process? If society discriminated against First Nations students the way you present, there would be no First Nations applicants for the hiring team to discriminate against

for first nations people when it comes to education are good, especially for post-secondary education, the funding is there. Because they don't make use of these opportunities is no one's fault but their own. It has nothing to do with racism.

If you graduate from high school on a reserve that HAS a high school (already not common), and find that the education has been too poor to prepare you for post secondary, how are you to take advantage of post secondary funding? And contrary to your Comment about so many opportunities, different bands have varying amounts of funds available for student funding.  
The comment about 'them' not taking advantage of the opportunities they have is ignorant and condescending.  
 
 
 
Edited by Tater, 2016-02-27 22:13:52

say you accept the premise that it is a fact that statistically marginalized groups have obstacles to: first, getting the education- so maybe it makes sense to promote qualified applicants to the faculty of education be a minimum percentage of various groups.  
Can we assume that the same systemic discrimination of various groups could easily result in discrimination at the level of hiring? I'm going to trust the statistics.  
 
I don't know why some people have the attitude that elevating those who have been held down in our society somehow takes away from others. Increasing the education level of our population at large is a social good.

Sorbet said " We don't all look like Caucasian women. However, the teaching force in Manitoba is dominated by this demographic. Is this causing problems for the many diverse learners in Manitoba's public school system? The University of Manitoba's Admission policy may be what Manitoba needs to get back on track......academically.     http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/education-diversity-opinion-seiff-1.3457382 "

Soembody is a little sexist.

syphradic said "    Sorbet said " We don't all look like Caucasian women. However, the teaching force in Manitoba is dominated by this demographic. Is this causing problems for the many diverse learners in Manitoba's public school system? The University of Manitoba's Admission policy may be what Manitoba needs to get back on track......academically.     http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/education-diversity-opinion-seiff-1.3457382 " Soembody is a little sexist. "

My wife and daughters don't think so. But you are entitled to your opinion.

All people have obstacles and some more than others. The way you speak, there should be no qualified applicants as they have already been discriminated against. How do these people get qualified? and  
 
What does having a high school in your home community matter?  
 
Edited by CommonTater, 2016-02-27 22:18:41

First Nations people who don't receive an adequate education to go to with funded post secondary education, or a person who goes through the public education system and because of financial restraints cannot continue with a post secondary education. I guess racism does exist.  
 
Tater, if you wish to fight social injustice, are you willing to fight for all, or only a certain group, if you only fight for a certain group is it because the plight of one is lessor in your mind, and one could say that your opinion might be affected by bias or even racist motives.  
 
I'm ignorant about who decides the curriculum for the First Nations schools, maybe that would be a better starting point.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-02-27 22:20:44

I think that having to leave home to attend high school is a great hardship. Several students who had to go to Thunder Bay to attend high school died in recent years, possibly violence or suicide.  
As for the opportunity of post secondary education, not all eligible First Nations students get funded, either. It's dependant on the budget of different bands. Different people DO have different obstacles, some more than others. And some less. Having few obstacles is also an example of what it means to have privilege.  
 
So tell me why equity in professional education and hiring is a bad thing?

When a comment is made that could be questioned, it is very easy to do some checking. The comment about under funding of first nations education can be easily checked. If a person were to look at the budget of 2012 Brandon School Div. it shows that the average per student expenditure was less than 10,000. Indian Affairs information shows that the average student under their funding program in Manitoba for 2012 was just under 13000. Although many First nations schools are situated in Northern Man. a 30% increase in average per student funding should more than cover those increased costs.

Not trying to be rude, but 20 posts in 3 days on the same subject? Get over it... Do you even remember what you said in your first post?

Tater said "I think that having to leave home to attend high school is a great hardship. Several students who had to go to Thunder Bay to attend high school died in recent years, possibly violence or suicide.   As for the opportunity of post secondary education, not all eligible First Nations students get funded, either. It's dependant on the budget of different bands. Different people DO have different obstacles, some more than others. And some less. Having few obstacles is also an example of what it means to have privilege.     So tell me why equity in professional education and hiring is a bad thing? "

When you posted about teens not having a high school on reserve, I assumed you were talking about kids who had to take a bus daily. I really don't know what percentage of kids need to move away from home to have access to a high school.  
 
I am getting confused as to how many situations you use discrimination to explain.  
 
You say that hiring a First Nations person over a white person is good as long as they are qualified. However, you can't explain where these qualified First Nations applicants are coming from because their secondary schooling is so substandard. You then say that the reason their schooling is substandard is partially due to poor retention of teachers in First Nations communities due to culture shock. One has to assume that if First Nations applicants were being hired for these positions, culture shock would not be an issue. Are First Nations employers discriminating against First Nations applicants?  
 
I sometimes wonder if those that cry racism constantly do more harm than good to a "disadvantaged" group. If I were a First Nations youth, would I benefit from listening to a hard working First Nations person who talks about hard work and overcoming obstacles. Or, would I be better served listening to someone who says there is no use in you trying cause the deck is stacked against you, you will get a substandard education and, if you get an education, you will not be allowed into the work force. Oh and not to mention, if you do get ahead, you will be ridiculed by your own people for selling out.  
 
I guess we all have a choice. We can enable failure or inspire triumph. Either way, the number of white women teaching a class is unlikely to be the tipping point.. I'm out of this one as I will choose to inspire those around me.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by CommonTater, 2016-02-27 23:40:24

not all FN people are educated on remote reserves and those that are can still excel, by overcoming more obstacles than others.  
And FN education was only one example of systemic discrimination.  
 
Anyway, if the education faculty at U of M thinks there is reason to change their policies, I think they likely know best.

.. Let's assume for a moment we live in a perfect world. A world where jobs are applied for in a different manner. The necessary qualifications are listed as A B C and D. All applicants fill out two forms, the first identifying the qualifications they have and the second identifying their personal information.  
 
In a perfect world only those forms indicating the applicant has the proper qualifications would generate an interview an only then would the personal information be needed. In a perfect world this method would generate a system where any givien profession would offer a reasonable reflection of the make up of the population at large.  
 
We clearly do not live in that perfect world because there are many many professions which do not reflect the make up of the population at large and the reason for this is discrimination of one form or another. Some encouraged ,some sanctioned, but discrimination none the less.  
 
 
 

I didn't see that when I taught on a reserve. We used the same curriculum at the time that was being used in the public school system and that was throughout k-12. Also computer labs and science labs were as good if not better stocked than other public schools that I had friends teaching in. For hiring qualified teachers they had more class 6 teachers than 5 or 4, why because they were funded for the teacher that filled the position. After school sports was great for the kids, no fees, unlike in the public schools and always a bus to take the kids home after, unlike in the public school system. Did the graduates not do well in university and colleges, yes, perhaps it had something to do with "applying oneself". I've seen lots of students not do well in university, college etc. not because of the quality of education they received but do to lack of effort when being out on their own. A University doesn't keep track if you do your homework, assignments, or show up for class.

Statistically more FN students have to do upgrading prior to attending college or university. Hopefully this IS getting better!  
 
Gekko- if graduates were able to graduate from high school but statistically didn't have the same rates of success in post secondary studies, are you attributing this to a character flaw?  
Also, all reserves are different. Not all reserves even have a decent building for a school, many have had to be replaced due to mold infestation for example. I'm glad that the reserve where you taught had a well-equipped school, but it doesn't reassure me about quality education when a teacher blames their students (who were able to graduate) for not being prepared for the next step. Isn't that part of the education that students receive? Preparation for post-secondary?  

Tater said "Statistically more FN students have to do upgrading prior to attending college or university. Hopefully this IS getting better!     Gekko- if graduates were able to graduate from high school but statistically didn't have the same rates of success in post secondary studies, are you attributing this to a character flaw?   Also, all reserves are different. Not all reserves even have a decent building for a school, many have had to be replaced due to mold infestation for example. I'm glad that the reserve where you taught had a well-equipped school, but it doesn't reassure me about quality education when a teacher blames their students (who were able to graduate) for not being prepared for the next step. Isn't that part of the education that students receive? Preparation for post-secondary?   "

I've seen students who left high school with great marks yet fail when they go to postsecondary, not because of ability, they have to apply themselves! "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." You teach the curriculum the best you can, after they leave high school they are out of your hands. Same reserve school I taught at needed a new gym, did they get one, no, but they did build a new hall with the allocated money.

Tater said "I think that having to leave home to attend high school is a great hardship. Several students who had to go to Thunder Bay to attend high school died in recent years, possibly violence or suicide.   As for the opportunity of post secondary education, not all eligible First Nations students get funded, either. It's dependant on the budget of different bands. Different people DO have different obstacles, some more than others. And some less. Having few obstacles is also an example of what it means to have privilege.     So tell me why equity in professional education and hiring is a bad thing? "

Several students died possibly of violence or suicide? Is there a real story here?  
 
If there is a real story I would like to hear it. Because I am typing and this is a sensitive and sad subject I will point out that I am in no way joking or sarcastic but. That doesn't always come through in text so just clarifying.  
 
I must add though that several students have also died across our province while attending high school where they live, some from suicide some from violence and some from many other causes. It is a very sad fact of life that some people die young.

Hi swmb, yes it's a real story. Here is a link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/first-nations-want-inquest-into-7-student-deaths-1.1239226  
 
Gekko: STATISTICALLY FN students are worse prepared than other populations. I've seen lots of people who got great grades in HS do poorly in university as well, I've also seen people flourish in university who struggled in high school for various reasons. But you seem to be stating that if students did well it was due to having all the needed resources and if they did poorly it was due to some laziness or other character flaw? Or mismanagement of resources? Is that what you're implying with the comment about needing a new gym and instead having a new community hall built?  
 
You can't have it both ways. And just because teachers are higher level doesn't mean they're better teachers either, I knew a prof from Simon Fraser who decided to teach in northern Manitoba instead because it paid more. He was a great teacher, but there are many who are not that great who get paid the same because of their level of education. NOT their level of expertise, talent, and commitment to student outcomes.

I meant to note also that there are people who die young all over, yes, and it's always sad and tragic, but these individuals in the article were particularly at risk because of the lack of educational resources in the community and the seperation from their families, as well as culture shock and racism down south.  
 
If I see any comments about we don't have racism in Brandon I'm going to puke because I see it all the time, people make comments all the time that are racist, sometimes overtly and sometimes more subtly. I've heard just the other day an adult say they don't want their kid to go to a particular school because of "the people that go there", a "kind of people I don't want him to hang around with let's say". His wife is a teacher. If she can tolerate or agree with the racism he shows, I wouldn't want her teaching my kid, what kind of racism might she tolerate in the classroom if she tolerates that in her home?? Gross. An adult racist against little children.  

Is there racism on reserves ?

is there racism and sexism in the world YES (and i believe reserves are racist too) but back to the actual subject, does it apply to the admission practice and hiring practices of teachers in mb, i would say NO  
 
I do not believe that the barriers that make someone choose not to pursue teaching is always a racist or sexist issue, with a language barrier it is the individual that chooses to pursue a subject more suited for them, that is not racism, that is free will, to be racist they would have to be able to not apply or to given less of a chance on application (kinda like we want to do with affirmative action) and that is not what is happening  
 
to use the FN example they do have barriers? yes, more then others? I'm not sure. some yes but so do Caucasians living remotely with low income, i would say possibly those select few have more because their isnt as many programs for them. so what i mean by that is most people have barriers to what they want to do its up to them to fix it for themselves and same with the FN people, we can not change their culture or tell them what to do, it is theirs to do within their own community as any other town as it is for ALL of us, until we dont even look at color or sex we are going to be racist and sexist so why do we keep enacting programs that look at race and sex?  
 
BTW FN people didnt get the right to vote until latter because they were(or are) considered their own nation therefor it didnt seem like they should be voting in another nations elections (we cant vote in the USA even tho it affects us)and as far as funding goes the whole system is hard for them because they get the same or slightly more tax transfers(as far as i understand it) like any other town or city with the population base but since they cannot tax their people they are running on only the tax transfers, other towns get the extra income from taxation, that is why BC FN have pushed for the right to tax and won but honestly while i can understand why they want what they want and why an agreement is an agreement, when we separate ANY group it is going to create an us and them and that is the real problem with our society, yet i dont think all those problems are systematic racism in the admittance policies, individual barriers yes but not racist policies in the school  
 
 
 

In my experience yes there is racism on reserves.

BC isn't in the same treaty system as in the Prairies, so there are a lot of differences there. As for not having the vote, it's not a REASON that they didn't have the vote, it's an EXCUSE, just like the REASON we women didn't have the vote until 100 years ago is because until then, men took care of us and our best interests. NO.  
 
It's wonderful to feel that one day we won't notice these things (race, ethnic background, sex, gender, etc.), but right now people use these as a basis to treat others poorly. I've seen it many times. Until that time, employment equity is intended to help people get treated as fairly as they would be in a more perfect world, and to help those that need to adjust (racists) get used to the fact that YES you may have to work with and respect people of all kinds regardless of your personal biases and that it is normal.  
It can't BECOME normal if individuals have to put up with sh!tty treatment to take their rightful place in school, the workplace, or any other place in society.  
 
It's not to accuse schools or school divisions of being racist, it's to help them not to be in ignorance.

Wow this is just so not something that should even be brought up. all that shows is there are more Caucasian females choosing this career path. People are hard enough on teachers as it is, now they are going to throw in the race card, Appalling!  
 

Problems in society will not get solved when people take an all or nothing approach to problem solving.  
 
Does racism exist? Yes  
Is racism the sole reason certain people don't excel? No  
Are certain people racist without being aware of it? Yes  
Do some people use racism as an excuse to under perform? Yes  
 
It gets frustrating for me when the only answer I receive when I ask "What is holding some people back?" is we need to stop racism. How can we fix a problem when we only identify one variable and pointing out other variables, makes us racist?

I actually disagree, I think there ARE individuals who have encountered racism or sexism and it had a major detrimental effect on the attainment of success that otherwise they would have achieved. Ask women in the rcmp in the 70s and 80s if they were abused and sexually assaulted and harassed on the job more than their male counterparts, or because they were female. Ask them if they had to do more and be more dedicated and above reproach compared to their male cohorts in order to have half the respect.  
 
There are many people, intelligent, educated, hard working people, who have had their potential diminished by discrimination. That is a FACT. Don't diminish their sacrifices.