Discussions

If the Federal Government was serious about climate change and the negative effects of carbon on the atmosphere, why don't they legislate car manufacturers to produce vehicles that are better on gas. With the technology available I'm sure this is possible. It is difficult to find a vehicle, that is not a hybrid, that gets over 40 miles per gallon. There are plenty of ways to help the environment without another tax. Until I start hearing about simple things like this, I think it's just another tax in the name of "helping the planet". As long as the "right people" are making money, nothing is going to change, but legislating car manufacturers would be a good start.

This is a HUGE cash grab. Start banning single use plastic. When you cut down a tree you must plant 2. Make emission standard higher on vehicles(like you said) . Those are 3 just off the top of my head. This carbon tax is a joke and anyone who defends it should give their head a shake.

There is no way the Government would be successful at mandating higher fuel economy engines.  
The tax is a tax grab which is paid back to the public through your tax return. Dont want to pay as much? Change your habits. That's the point.  
I'm all for banning single use plastics and styrofoam. Plastic bags too.  
 
Marpet

Short, but brief rant - Okay - I totally get the "why" part of the carbon tax. However - if they're going to start taxing pollution, then they need to offer solutions and stop being so hypocritical. If they're serious about reducing pollution, they never should have spent $4 billion of our money on that pipeline.  
 
If they wanted to create jobs - they should have invested in technology like what was developed by Carbon Engineering out of Squamish, BC  
 
Build 500 or more of these Carbon Engineering plants across the country - then tax fossil fuels all you like. Drive us toward something sustainable that can contribute to the economy PLUS get us off of fossil fuels - but don't just take our hard earned dollars and tell us it's for our own good.

...Carbon Engineering is still in its R&D stage and not set up for mass deployment. But I like where your going. I agree, dont give us back the money, use it to create green jobs.  
 
As far as taking our hard earned dollars, you said you understood why. To get you to change your habits. That's "why".  
 
Marpet

No, That's not "why"  
I live in the country. I don't drive recreationally. I drive to go to work, and make a living. I get supplies like food and clothing locally and rarely drive to Brandon for anything. I've always made the most of my trips to town, not to save fuel, but to save time. The carbon tax isn't going to change my habits. These are things I still need to do to get by.  
 
The "why" is to mitigate the effects of climate change.  
At least that's what we're supposed to believe.  
But all the tax really does is drive up the price of any goods or services that have to be moved from one place to another.  
 
Instead of giving us a tax, give us an option.  
 
Like any technology based company - Carbon Engineering will ALWAYS be conducting R&D. However, they're already producing carbon neutral fuel that can be burned in any internal combustion engine. They've already proven that the technology works.

Saw this video a while ago. Oil makes up a HUGE part of our lives, whether we want to admit it or not.  
 
 
 
A major component in ALL vehicles is plastic, which comes from oil. Look around your house. How many things are made from plastic? How many of those things came in plastic, which is then thrown away? How did those products get to your house? They had to be transported somehow, requiring oil. Food has to be produced and transported. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.  
 
EVs are promoted as being great. Are they? How are they recharged? If they are using hydroelectricity such as we have in MB, then they are "greener" than places that use coal or other less environmentally friendly options for producing electricity. Then again, how "green" are hydroelectric dams? There is a lot of construction required to build these generating stations, and the construction requires oil.  
 
There are always solar and wind power. How are the products developed and installed? They require energy and oil, at least for transportation.  
 
I do agree that we do need to reduce our reliance on oil. We all need to take a bigger look at how we can do that.  
 
I wonder, does the president of Greenpeace, who is against oil, drive a vehicle? Use a computer? Eat?

Years ago, I had a 1985 Toyota Corolla with a 1.8l carbureted, 4 cylinder engine and 5 speed transmission. I remember getting 42 MPG on the highway, and driving a few mph over the speed limit. That was over 30 years ago that I did this.  
 
You mentioned that it is difficult to find a vehicle that gets over 40 MPG that isn't a hybrid. I remember hearing stories of 318 V8 engines getting 50+ mpg, and they had power. You hear about people coming up with fuel saving things that actually work, and then nothing more. I agree, it is totally amazing that vehicles don't get better mileage now considering all the advancements in technology. Conspiracy theory time but I'm sure that big oil is behind a lot of this.

"But all the tax really does is drive up the price of any goods or services that have to be moved from one place to another. "  
 
How much does this tax cost you?  
Does the tax credit cover your cost? How much are you out?  
 
You talk about Carbon Engineering, and I agree but who will pay? If the government implemented plants with taxpayer dollars, everyone would cry about subsidies. If the government implements a tax, they cry about a tax grab. If we leave it to the market to find a way, nobody changes their habits because somebody will try to find a way to give you want cheaper...even if the environment suffers.  
 
You want choices. So do I. In they end, we will all pay. Doing nothing will cost a hell of a lot more then this tax.  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2019-05-04 23:40:37

Exactly. Hear stories like that all the time. If you search the internet, there are a lot of conspiracies and fake news out there, but there also a large number of articles with researchers and engineers coming up with improvements to the internal combustion engine, getting in excess of 80 miles per gallon. They are then "urged" to sell out to car manufacturers and sign over all rights.  
Non conspiracy, vehicles rented in Europe (diesel) get almost double the mileage as the same vehicle in North America. When trying to order the same engine as the European model, they are told it is not available in North America. Hmmmm........

1. I remember vehicles from the 80s as well. My father had a great 74 Ford F150 with a tiny little 6 cylinder (240 ci). Truck worked fine, was cheap on gas. Try to buy a truck like that today - instead of going for high mpg, consumers drove high hp. Instead of ~150 hp, today's trucks have at least twice that, not to mention upscaling in luxury and size.  
2. North Americans soured on diesels when GM built "diesel" engines out of their standard 350 ci gasoline engines in the early 80s (Iran energy crisis). These engines ran poorly and basically blew up, ensuring the average North American associates "diesel" with "bad".  
 
As for the carbon tax, bring it on. Consumers won't change until they have to. Leather seats in a 400 hp quad cab Dodge Ram are just too inviting. It will take a shock to make us change.

Anything we do in this country wont make an iota of difference globally. As long as China and India and a few others keep doing what they're doing, all Trudeau is accomplishing is emptying our wallets into his. And if you think you'll get back as much as you pay you're dreaming. Tax and spend, tax and spend and still run record deficits. Its all Trudeau knows.

Two selling points of the carbon tax are that most people will get back more than they pay and that this tax is a good thing as it will cause consumers to make more environmentally friendly choices.  
 
Can someone explain to me how both things can come true at the same time?

I'm as annoyed as the next person by yet another tax: however, I have to say that I don't mind paying taxes if I feel like there's value to it. Case in point: taxes to health care (assuming there's not excessive wasteful spending)? Good. School taxes? Good, again with the provisio that they're being responsible with my money. Paying into things like EI and CPP (different names for taxes)? Good.  
 
Carbon tax? I would have less issue with it if it wasn't "refunded" to us via the tax system. Why?  
 
1. It's economically wasteful (I worked for Canada Revenue Agency for 10 years, so I know how resource-intensive and economically wasteful these "rebate" programs are).  
 
2. You have my money. Use it for something useful like developing infrastructure to make green choices easier for me, for you, and especially for those who don't have the financial means to make those greener choices. Create forgivable loans for green start-ups. Build charging stations for electric vehicles. Invest in sustainable, diversified agriculture that keeps more food local, reducing food miles and oil-based inputs.  
 
To say, "oh, well this is useless because Canada isn't the big polluter that China is," is disingenuous. Our four-year-old has been reading for a long time already, and you know what's she's discovered all by herself? Everything is "Made in China". So unless you are ceasing to buy anything - and everything - "Made in China", don't say how China is the problem. Full stop. We are part of the "Chinese Problem".  
 
/soapbox

The tax increased the price of fuel by about 4.5 cents.  
 
My wife and I got $250 back in the rebate which is about $4.17/ wk.  
 
2 vehicles using about 60 liters/ wk combined. 60 x 4.5 cents =: $2.70/wk. $4.17-$2.70=:$1.47 for other increases per week. I know that given my lifestyle, we will pay more than that. So it's up to me to change my habits if I want to save money.  
 
That's the point of the tax.  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2019-05-05 15:37:42

And what changes are you going to be compelled to make based solely on the implementation of this tax?  
 
In addition, are you stating that you believe that the selling point that most will get back more than they pay is a lie?  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2019-05-05 15:46:13

...I'm going to try to plan out my trips a little better so that I'm not making 3 trips to the grocery a week. Try to ride my bike to work sometimes this summer. I've already switched over to LEDs but that wont make much difference for the carbon tax (hydro is pretty green already). My next car will hopefully be electric, couple years away yet. Trying to eat less meat, buying food that is locally produced even though its pricier. Turning the heat down in the winter and using more space heaters instead of natural gas ( no need to heat rooms I'm not in often). Not a lot of choices with regards to clothes as their aren't many local manufacturers, at reasonable prices. Might look into a solar water heater, pricey though and my heater is electric. Will definitely put in an on demand unit when this one dies.  
 
I'm sure there will be other opportunities.  
 
I'm not sure what selling point your referring too but given my household income and lifestyle, I'm sure to pay more than I get back. I would expect to be a higher than average household income and I dont expect this tax to cost me much. Those who earn more will be more carbon intensive (given their lifestyles) and those earning less would be expected to lead a less carbon intensive lifestyle. So, to answer your question, I would expect most Canadian's to recieve a rebate higher than their costs and that the wealthy will be the ones paying. Good!  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2019-05-05 15:58:34

I am glad to hear about all the changes you have planned. I am sincere in my appreciation for your efforts.  
 
However, don't expect me to believe that you are making all of these changes based on the carbon tax. All those changes for a buck, maybe two, a week. C'mon.  
 
The selling point I am talking about is how Ottawa says that over 80% of Canadians will see a bigger refund than their expenditure. How is that going to cause them to change any behaviours?  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2019-05-05 16:27:06

As the tax will go up by 150% next year will our rebate also increase or is it a onetime rebate?  
Everything that is an oil based product will increase in price, including most plastics and a lot of packaging. Your vehicle service will cost more because there will be an increase in the oil price. The service centre will be paying out a greater amount and are most likely to pass this addition onto the customer.  
Every vehicle spare will increase in price as will the cost of transport (taxis, buses, air fares etc.) and goods in shops that have to be transported, apart from the gouging that is bound to occur.  
Not sure if the local authorities will be paying more to dispose of the garbage, maybe someone can advise. If so then our rates are going to increase to compensate.  
Not really sure that any of us are going to drastically change our lifestyles other than perhaps reducing our travel where possible.

...because of the tax? No, but if the tax pushes me to make the changes....  
 
As far as 80%? Median income in Canada is around $30000 per individual. 50% earn less. How hard would it be for the next 30% to also get a refund?  
 
The people getting the benefit just aren't as carbon intensive than the last 20%. There isnt a lot of opportunity for them to reduce, as they don't use much to begin with ( compared to the last 20%).  
This is a tax for the "wealthy". Remember, the top 10% earn more than $80000 per individual.  
 
And if your against the tax, it seems to me that you would make changes to not then pay it?  
 
Marpet

1. I commend anyone who will make positive changes in their life.  
2. I don't think income is a useful way to predict a carbon footprint.  
3. This tax will not impact my decisions or lifestyle choices in any measurable way.  
4. I should not tell anyone what will and will not motivate them.  
5. I believe many environmentally friendly strategies have been initiated and will continue to be initiated with or without the tax.  
6. No action on either side will ever be sufficient to satisfy those opposed.  
7. This taken directly from www.Liberal.ca on the reason for carbon pricing,  
 
It’s a vital step to grow our economy and protect our environment, and will:  
 
reduce the pollution that threatens our clean air and oceans, and the health of Canadians  
give Canada an edge in building a clean-growth economy  
make Canadian businesses more innovative and competitive  
develop new and exciting job opportunities for middle class Canadians  
 
and while it sounds groovy, I don't see how an income tax aimed at a small minority is going to accomplish these promises.  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2019-05-05 21:30:28

To answer your questions:  
"How much does this tax cost you? "  
Today it costs me $0.05 per liter of gas that I buy.  
It also costs the manufacturers, the farmers, the trucking companies, and everyone else down the line $0.05 per liter of fuel - which they will pass on to me one way or the other when I buy their goods or services. And apparently a carbon tax has been applied to my Hydro bill???? - Which is stupid. Hydro electricity from dams doesn't generate carbon emissions. That's like putting an alcohol tax on my pineapple juice.  
 
"Does the tax credit cover your cost?"  
I haven't sat down to figure it out, most likely not. But even if it did - it doesn't matter. The principle of the matter is the fact that the price of everything is constantly going up and I already feel like I'm taxed to death. It's already almost impossible to get ahead in life. The rebate means little when I gotta bend over and let them take it back every time I pull up to the pumps.  
 
"You talk about Carbon Engineering, and I agree but who will pay?"  
I would much rather have paid to set up the infrastructure that would TRULY have meant long-term jobs and a switchover to a carbon-neutral energy source - than to have my tax dollars spent on $4billion worth of pipe. I would rather "subsidize" something like 500 Canadian designed and built carbon engineering plants, than have my tax dollars subsidize any foreign oil company like we've been doing for years.  
 
They should give us options, not new taxes. That's all I'm saying.  
 
Edited by Melvinsfan, 2019-05-05 21:24:36

...a pipeline ha nothing to do with the Carbon tax. Will governments be wasteful? Yes.  
Will the Carbon Tax create new jobs? Possibly. If the people want change, their going to have to demand it.  
Is the Carbon tax the answer? I have no idea but doing nothing isn't going the change anything. What do you suggest? I can guarantee that the government subsidizing carbon capture plants will meet a strong resistance too. And where would the money come from? A tax? You already feel your taxed to death and cant get ahead.  
 
Options cost money and were the ones who pay. If you have ideas, tell your MP.  
 
There has to be better ways than just doing the same thing over and over. Maybe it's time to look at the people who create the problems and ask them to change.  
 
Us.  
 
P.s. - The Carbon tax is levied against the natural gas portion of your Hydro bill, not the electricity portion. Makes sense.  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2019-05-05 21:53:18

Quite the opposite! Companies will invest elsewhere, where they don't have to pay this ridiculous useless tax!

Marpet…..as you say it is all about changing habits. This is the problem though. We cannot change just like that. We get billed for Carbon Tax yet people say it is rebated back so what is the big deal. I get back just over $200 for the household. I will pay that in fuel alone. Let alone what other commodities I will have to pay more for due to their transportation costs.  
I don’t understand a few things they say in 2015 the world increase as 2 degrees which results in a 3-4 degree increase for Canada. I honestly don’t understand how they come up with that number. China has increased .24 degrees from 1951-2017 so I don’t know how we jump so much higher than China who produces 28% of the worlds gases vs our 2% world output.  
Let’s break it down:  
28% Transportation  
26% Stuff you buy  
17% Home Heating and Cooling  
15% Other Home Energy Use  
14% Food  
And now for the household:  
45% Space Heating  
18% Water Heating  
9% Space Cooling  
6% Computers and Electronics  
6% Lighting  
5% Other  
4% Cooking  
4% Refrigeration  
3% Wet Cleaning  
 
Looking at countries that produce less gasses than we do, the transportation is much less due to the size of the country. We get our goods shipped to ports on either side of the country then need to get them across Canada. Little hard to do without fuel. We are penalized for living in a large country. Europe and other countries have tons of row housing and large scale apartments, especially in China. We have what….the scotia towers? Average Canadian home is just under 2000sqft. Average China and British home is around the 600-700sqft range. That is almost 3 homes in every Canadian home. I cannot control the size of homes people build. I could build a custom home but there is no way the city will allow me to separate my lot into two and build a 700 sqft home on each. Nor do I have the financial means to do such. Maybe offer some incentive for developers to build smaller homes and set parameters requiring a certain amount of high level apartments in each development. Force 20-50 level condos/apartments.  
I live in a 1200sqft home with no basement. I keep a programmable thermostat set in winter for 69 at home and 66 at night and 64 when at work. That isn’t warm temps where you lounge in a tank top and shorts. I have a sweater and pants on. In the summer same thing, 69 degrees, warms up a little at night and during the day. House is all on electric so can’t get too much more efficient other than solar panels. Exception to solar panels unless there is a rebate offered it isn’t cost effective to install panels on an already all electric house with low usage. We replaced our hot water with a smaller electric so not to heat as much water. We don’t watch cable and just the odd movie on Netflix. We switched to led lights and keep them off when not using. We go shopping usually twice a week. Veggies don’t like to be half chopped and sitting a week in the fridge not getting used. We used to toss out more than just add an extra trip to the store. I looked into bus or bike. My wife to get to work it would add 2.5 hours a day to her trip taking the bus and that is walking about 1.5km during that. Work and home are extreme opposites. Riding a bike too is an extra hour to the schedule, and being in a professional work environment and again on opposite ends of the city coming to work sweaty and needing a shower and change clothes doesn’t seem like too much of an option. As for transportation I would love to just go out and buy an all-electric vehicle for 40-50 thousand dollars to feel like I am saving the world. If I am to start changing habits then we should be able to change as seen fit. If we are to change our driving behaviour and I am immediately charged higher fuel for a carbon tax, why can’t I purchase a used electric golf cart and use it as a commuter vehicle? Should I buy a mobility scooter as that is more in lines of an electric vehicle budget I would have? We are paying more on two things we cannot control. One is fuel as we need it to move goods across this country and groceries. Groceries I have noticed have crept up in price. This is a commodity that we consume daily and with higher costs in moving goods have to go up. Yet we don’t feel the pinch of an extra 5 bucks for transportation on a new TV because it is a one off purchase every X amount of years.  
Why doesn’t the government focus on changing what they can without it costing us Canadians?  
-Ban the use of plastic bags and make us use brown or cloth bags. Good market for hemp and a processing facility in the area that could make and distribute them.  
-Force makers to reduce their amount of packaging used. I have gotten parcels where the item is the size of a beer can yet it comes in a box 2 feet by 2 feet and a whole lot of packaging inside to prevent bouncing. All that went in the garbage. How much air is needed in chip bags and such to reduce packaging?  
-Charge a flat out $100 recycling fee for every electronic excluding children and small devices such as calculators. The fee would apply on cell phones, laptops, TV, stereos, etc. This way we can try and fund proper recycle centers across our own country to process e-waste instead of shipping it overseas.  
-Do we go to smaller housing?

I thought the environmental levy on plastic containers and pop cans was supposed to help fund the recycling program? Then I find out, it is cheaper for the manufacturer to use raw material, rather than the more expensive recycled version. So now they ship the goods to be recycled off to southeast Asia until they say, "we no longer want your garbage". Now what? Another tax I'm guessing.

There is always the BC option. That is, making manufacturers pay to have the packaging they push into the marketplace recycled. Or, so is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong).  
 
BC also had a carbon tax over a decade ago.  
 
BC has been ahead in many areas. Maybe we're not as far in the realm of pipedream land as many like to tout we are.

Please don't i:nclude a system like Alberta or Saskatchewan. I am just fine paying my 2 cents and tossing the cans in the recycle bin. I lived in Alberta. 20 cents on a 2l pop, 10 cents for bottles, 5 cents for cans. Don't know what milk jugs and baby containers went for. Why pay more on groceries as a "deposit" then hop you remember everything to get your money back, otherwise the government gets what you forgot. You would then have to store them, bag them, sort, take them in. It just isn't worth it.

That pretty much says it all.  
 
We as First World consumers are lazy. If we have to lift a finger to do anything, "It just isnt with it".  
Any program requiring our input is too much of an inconvenience. God forbid I might have to remember to take the recycling in to get my deposits back...could you imagine the horror of having to wait in line, sitting in your idling vehicle, getting screwed by the Carbon Tax.  
 
This is the poster child of the problem that blankets our society.  
Why shouldn't you be inconvenienced? Why cant you lift a finger to help? And if your to lazy to take in your recycling, that's your problem.  
 
Marpet

"And who will help me eat this cake" ?