Discussions

You have to consent to medical treatment. People who don't vaccinate often have fear as a motivator. Ergo, they don't consent. That's really a fundamental basis for why mandatory vaccination is somewhat of a slippery slope.  
 
Comparing it to drunk driving is harsh. I don't think they're equivalent, firstly because they don't have the same status under the law. It is illegal to drink and drive. It is not illegal to not consent to medical treatment.  
 
Do they pose danger? To the vaccinated, they shouldn't. They can to people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, the elderly, the very young, etc. But those are also specific groups that precautions could be taken to reduce the spread of illness. It's imperfect, but actions like isolation and hygiene can go a long way in reducing the spread in ideal conditions. But not perfect, hence why we have vaccines.  
 
I used to choose to not vaccinate because we have a child who reacted poorly to vaccines. I was afraid to vaccinate again, and it was hard to sift through all the information out there. She still doesn't get vaccines, but we finally came around and have vaccinated our other children and are more or less caught up. Education was key for us. In that respect, it *is* like drunk driving, where education is the biggest single deterrent. But even if harsh legal penalities, people still drive while intoxicated.

Herd immunity is needed to make sure even vaccinated people are fully covered. In the case of people with weakened immune systems, how are they going to be isolated? Daycares are full of young kids and babies who are not yet able to get all immunization, they are more susceptible to diseases. Hard to keep them isolated if a non vaccinated kid/adult potentially spreads diseases around (especially for daycares located in schools). Are the elderly or people who have had the immune systems wiped from cancer etc not allowed to go to the store, restaurant, travel etc.  
I believe everybody who is medically able to receive vaccines should and if not they should be “isolated”, I personally think if you choose not to vaccinate (other than for medical reasons), your children should be homeschooled, not allowed in public school or daycares. You are not just affecting your own child but also increasing the risk for premie’s, people who had cancer/organ transplants/etc, pregnant women, seniors, and people who medically couldn’t be vaccinated.  
 
Vaccines are something I completely believe in and no amount of misinformation is going to ever make me reconsider. Coming from the wife of a cancer survivor, mother of a premie and friend of people with compromised immune systems.

I dont think anti vaxers are the same as drunk drivers but they are an issue. I believe the benefits defiantly outweigh the risks when we are talking about most of the scheduled childhood vaccinations but i do not lump the flu vaccination in the same category yet, data may show that it is worth it but it isnt lifelong protection from flus as they are always changing, there is more reasons why im on the fence about it but i rather not go into details. Generally im for vaccinations but am against making any medical procedure mandatory so imo we should fight anti vaxers with education, not laws that infringe on freedoms

Good points.  
 
Anti vaxxers do seem to be more dangerous than drunk drivers are nowadays. If we could tally up the harm, loss of life and health, and other direct expenses to society caused by this deliberate negligence, the harm would be huge.  
 
In response to there not being laws against anti vax, that could change, just as society focused negatively on drunk driving.  
 
The anti vax movement/ superstition has been completely debunked. Vaccines increased life expectancy by roughly 20 years, the greatest advance in human health ever, by greatly reducing child deaths.  
 
Now we are paying for their negligence with the reappearance of measles and the like, when we should have been reading about the extinction of these diseases in some far corner of the third world.  
 
I would suggest the responsibility for the spread of any of these diseases linked to antivaxxers should carry legal liability for loss of life or damages. And I think it would do us all a lot of good if unvaccinated children were not allowed in public facilities, or arguably public places. Equally, I would suggest that unvaccinated people not be allowed on flights, or to cross borders, both visitors to this country, or those intending to travel. This was how measles was carried back to Canada from places like the Philippines. Easily prevented. That cost our health care system untold millions.

This may sound like a strange thing to say but we worry to much.  
I spend a bit of time every day following things, things like world economics, world politics, conflicts amount nations, science and medicine, climate change, and there’s likely a few others that aren’t everyday but maybe once a week, and some of those include growth of world population, and the amount of resources we are using up. There is one that I find somewhat amusing, and that is recorded near misses by meteorites, and the number that are surprises because they just weren’t seen.  
There are many things that are a double edged sword, because of science and technology, over a long period of time, we have become our species own worst enemy, and yet our demise, as a species, may be the result of the history of our planet, where there will be nothing we can do.  
Our children were all vaccinated, but sometimes interfering with nature just moves reality to a different time.

I guess this is another place where pro-choice and it's my body, not yours. you do what you think is best for yours and let other people do what they think is best for theirs. you being scared of what other people choose does not give you a right to force them against their will, intimidate them or threaten to take their rights from them.  
 
Edited by rum, 2019-10-10 22:00:21

If you're "vaccinated" why are you worried if others are lol you should be protected right? ....

I love that argument from antivaxxers. “What do you you think they used to do before all these deadly vaccines?” They died Karen, a lot of people died.  
 
Also, the flu vaccine has no place in the same conversation as others, like MMR etc. The flu vaccine is different every year, and is based on the best guess of which strain might be active. Childhood vaccines are proven effective against the diseases they are designed for. Nobody ever claimed they are 100% effective, but in a vaccinated society, they are extremely effective. Unfortunately we no longer have a vaccinated society due to all the misinformation that is spread.

https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index4.html

When people say that "vaccines stop disease " I always have to pose the question, what happened to Scarlett Fever? It is gone too, and there was no vaccine for that?. A lot of disease has been taken out of the picture due to a huge increase of hygienics.

"Tell that to my dead grandson who died at 2 years of age a week after having a vaccination...."  
 
You do realize that an adverse vaccine effect, though incredibly rare, would not be causing a fatality a week after a shot?  
 
This reminds me of the often told, baseless story about getting sick after the flu vaccination. The flu vaccine contains ZERO LIVE VIRUS. It is therefore competely impossible to contract the flu from the shot. But, people tell all kinds of stories about their illness, or their grandma never being sicker than because of the shot. Zero credibility. But people can see patterns everywhere, even where they aren't real.  
 
And as mentioned particular to the flu shot, it is based on a guess each August to cover 3 potentially troublesome strains, so you can contract a strain not covered, or a variant. That said, if we had enough of the population getting flu shots, it's spread would be very minimal compared to what we see today.

Yeah, once a person dissociates from logic and starts using YouTube as their source to challenge science... I would like to have one of those perpetual energy generators too...  
 
Regarding flu vaccines, they are certainly the weakest, hit and miss, and not a super immune response. But still worth it. It has been computer modeled that particularly vaccinating most kids, who are the major vector, would significantly break transmission. Them and health care workers. So it's really the same case as for herd immunization of the other diseases. Flu actually kills a lot of people, it causes heart issues in men, and we know what it can do to the elderly and weak. Just practically speaking, I prefer not being ill or missing work. If I can avoid one day like that every other year, I consider it a significant benefit.

My goodness. Angry? Obvious. Bully? Yep. Bringing raw milk vs. processed into this rant? Give me a break. Your rage needs to stop. I think you are angry at everything that won't support your opinion/science...and science isn't always right. It is often very flawed. So the medical system is too. Are you a scientist, professor, student, medical person...just what? Why are you so angry?  
 
What I want to know is what happened to you to be this angry. It isn't just that these people *who disagree with you* exist. Not everyone is going to side with you on everything. That's life. Bullying others is never acceptable.  
 
Inciting wrath and taking away people's freedoms is a dangerous & slippery slope. There is truth & lies on both sides. There is passion (right or wrong) on both sides. I have heard from both personally...from people who have assumed my vacc choice one way or the other. Does anyone's change of mind come from bullying? No.  
 
I know that I am tired of this fight. Just let it go.  
 
That's my comment here. I won't revisit this thread again. It is not worth any more of my time.  
 
BTW, those of you who are concerned about influenza, research elderberries. They have been proven both over time (from ancient times) and by modern science, to kill it. It costs very little to make a syrup & tastes great too. No harm done.

Yes I’ve walk through cemeteries, noticed a lot of deaths in the year 1918, pretty sure that was the Spanish Flu. Numbers are important, penicillin was introduced in 1928-29, why would this be important.  
Most viral infections are nasty, but most of the damage is from bacterial infections that usually follow once a host has a weakened immune system.  
Even smallpox had a mortality rate of about 30%, was much higher in infants and the young.  
As I mentioned earlier all my children were vaccinated, and we have a active vaccination program in our cattle herd, and from personal experience I know that there are reactions when vaccinating, and each package carries the warning in the enclosed information stating the risks. Anaphylactic shock is not just a phrase, but a medical condition and without immediate treatment it is fatal.  
I’m once again going to jump back to the cemetery idea. Not only have I observed cemeteries in this country but paid notice to large military cemeteries in other countries, is this point relative, I believe in this topic it is. People have given their lives so that people can have a choice in their lives, sadly we are losing those choices in so many areas.  
I did not receive much challenge in my original post, but am still curious. If fact and statistics prove that we have saved a very large number of lives, and added 20 years to the average lifespan, are we really doing humanity a favor in the long run.

I'll just say that not getting the nasty disease in the first place doubtless helps enhance survival.  
 
And yes, given where our race seems to be heading, a reduction in the population would probably be a blessing. Maybe the antivaxxers will help us out with that.  
 
As for comparing livestock vaccines to those used in people, I don't think that's a valid comparison, the standards for safety and trials are far lower for veterinary use.

I find this very funny because it is someone's choice on if they want it or not. Me I ain't a anti vaxxer because I think of a "anti vaxxer" as someone who preaches against it, which i do not do.however I do not get vaccinated either because it's my choice and if you need to know my reason then it's because I very rarely get sick and everyone I've known that gets va instead get super sick... huh weird. Am I more dangerous then drunk drivers you ask, that has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard..literally.. so let me ask you this, if you are vaccinated then you shouldnt get sick well then why do you care if I get vaccinated?

For cattle, the safety and purity of drugs are not as stringent, and even the carrying agent for the vaccine may not be safe for humans, but if you look at vaccines and drugs for swine,it is a completely different story. Maybe not the best thing to say, but people and pigs are very similar in compatibility as far as drugs, vaccines and organ tissue goes. The biggest advantage to vaccines is more of the financial aspect of having a vaccinated population. Advances in medicine, which include medicines as well as treatment, means that science has made survivablity of viruses and bacterial a little more of a sure thing, but the cost that would be incurred by a major outbreak would be prohibitive. The flu vaccines are in a way a real crap shoot, it is sort of a guessing game on which strain of virus will be predominant at a given time, as well as how much that virus will mutate by the time it causes a major outbreak.  
The one thing that bothers me is the slippery slope that we talk of, will we accept the idea that individuals must be punished, or refused treatment, because of life choices, are we going to dictate to people that they must eat a certain diet, or exercise a certain amount. I use these examples because science has proven the case for both, but part of society moving forward is allowing individualism to exist.  
Also the idea that science always benefits mankind is questionable, both Alfred Nobel and Albert Einstein questioned much of the accomplishments in their lives understanding the problem of human nature.

Well the proof is no small pox polio etc. My grandfather had a limp his entire life after polio. Certainly affected his job prospects and every part of his life.  
 
Thousands of people not dying every year is proof vaccines work. Not really sure what else someone might need. At some point you just wonder if most people are capable of understanding things. My guess is no. And that will be the end of us. The herd might be strong. But it is incredibly dumb. To top it it off the dumbest are the most likely to reproduce early and often.

Herd immunity is essential to the continued success of vaccinations. Contrary to some posts, vaccination does not guarantee immunity and we all have a part to play in protecting society from diseases. Number of people undoubtedly saved by vaccines minus people allegedly harmed by vaccines still leaves just about everyone. Vaccinate unless you are medically unable. It is for the greater good and not that hard of a concept.