Discussions

That good childcare is hard find and providers are not paid well. There are some great daycares. On the flip side many parents are struggling to make ends meet after paying living expenses and child care.  
Please answer this: If I fixed your car and charged you for a part that I didn’t fit would you consider that to be fair?  
I am not trying to knock daycare providers but I thought that the customer/ consumer was always right.

The customer/consumer is not always right. There are many circumstances where they aren’t right. It’s not a providers problem that some people are struggling to make ends meet. They are providing a service, and most times a good daycare has a waiting list of kids who’s parents want that spot and are willing to pay what is needed. The daycare provider may lower/adjust/ rethink their fees or paid days off if they aren’t keeping their spots filled. If the spots are staying filled and people are willing to pay these fees, they will stay. If they consumer doesn’t like it, they are welcome to the door. The daycare provider is her own boss, and can and do make their own rules to an extent. The major rule a private care has to follow is how many infants they can take at once and how many kids they can take at once and obviously safety. Other than that they are free to set their own rates, holidays, stat pay, etc. If parents are unhappy with those rules they only have to supply 2 weeks notice and move on. There is no meeting with other parents of that daycare to say they don’t like it, and the daycare has to make them happy. Some daycares will say if you have a problem discuss it with me and we can see if we can work out a solution. But for the most part when that daycare person is set on their rates, days off with pay, etc, that’s how it will stay.  
Businesses have to pay their staff vacation pay and for stat holidays, but yet those employees didn’t perform their duties that day.  
 
As for daycare, it’s usually 9-10 hours a day with kids, wear and tear on that persons house, shopping after hours for supplies (food, craft supplies, toys, books, equipment), doing prep (crafts, etc) after hours, scheduling appointments on off days for self and own children ,cleaning and laundry of daycare items after hours, making sure you don’t get sick, and sooooo much more. Maybe this daycare is having 3 paid days off in lieu of all the daycare work outside daycare hours she doesn’t get paid for. I know my husband gets paid to be on call for work and majority of the time he gets no calls while on call. So he’s getting paid to not do anything either sometimes.  
 
Parents always have the option to move on if the daycares rules, fees, etc don’t line up with what they are looking for. Simply give your notice and move on.  
Same with your car part theory. I would have to pay for it if I knew in advance that that was one thing in my contract I agreed to pay for even if it wasn’t used. If it wasn’t in my contract or something I was aware months in advance, I’d say sorry that doesn’t work for me and move to another car place. But keep in mind that next car place might not be as good or might have more problems in the future.  
Just my opinion.  
 
Edited by Cheezies, 2019-11-14 09:37:18

I dont charge For days I'm sick or not able to take kids. Idk it seems ridiculous to charge when I'm not watching kids. I took on a couple of kids for this reason exactly. Her care provider expected to get paid days off.

You Are right. A customer can vote with their feet. On the other hand a reputable repair shop would not charge for an unused part, contract or no contract. The principle should be the same.

Yes that makes sense as well. Maybe they should be called “paid mental health days” instead then. Many businesses have started including those. If you’ve ever run daycare it can definitely take it’s toll on your mental health at times.  
Personally I don’t know why this provider is choosing to have those days off with pay. I’m speculating.  
My rules are far from this situation. Maybe that’s why I’ve been in business for 18 plus years.  
I don’t charge for my holidays, or any days I book off. Other than 11 stat type days throughout the year. And when I say type, that means a couple of the days I get paid for aren’t necessarily considered stat by our govt. for example Remembrance day or Boxing Day. I don’t charge for any sick days. Mine or the children’s. I don’t charge for kids being off on a holiday or day off as long as I have 2 weeks notice in advance so I can budget accordingly. If I don’t get that 2 weeks notice, I charge. If children are going to be off longer than a couple weeks (which has only happened twice in all these years) those parents paid me to keep the spot for when they came back.  
I like to encourage parents to spend time with their kids and keep sick kids home. Not every daycare can afford to have such lax rules as we all do have bills to pay, and supplies to purchase.  
So I was simply offering up some perspectives as to what that daycare could be thinking. I know many of parents have said over the years how much they appreciate how I do things and have no problem paying for those 11 days. Even ones who still want to pay when their child is booked off and I’m not charging, to make sure I can make my ends meet. I’m always curious to see how other daycares operate and reasonings. I’m always trying to learn and improve.  
So to each their own. Have a great day!  
 
Edited by Cheezies, 2019-11-14 10:25:10

Except people on call aren’t being paid for nothing if they don’t get called in. Being on call means the potential to have to work is there. This means they can’t really make plans or leave the city because if they get called, they’re expected to work ASAP. The provider who is off is not going to agree to work if a parent “calls them in”. So it’s not the same situation at all.  
 
I meant to add this in my last post but got timed out. When I worked for centres and was a nanny, I was paid for time off because they were my employer. Now that I am the employer, if My employee (myself haha) wants to take holidays, my employer (myself again hehe), pays for it.  
 
Mental health days are definitely needed in this job! Sick days are definitely needed! Holidays are definitely needed! However, I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t need or deserve them....it just comes down to who you think should be responsible for paying for them. This is why a detailed, legal contract is so important. If a parent has agreed to the providers terms and it’s all in legal writing, then the parent only has 2 options....pay for what they agreed too or find a different provider. Rallying up the troops (the other parents) isn’t going to end well as I can almost guarantee the provider will just say goodbye to everyone and start fresh with clients that agree to her terms  
 
Wording is so important and that is why I will always encourage providers to just increase their tuition fees instead of adding paid days off. Puts the responsibility of paid time off in the providers hands and won’t rub people the wrong way for charging for a service that they aren’t receiving. If you can’t save the extra money for your holidays, that is a YOU problem and not a parent problem

I agree to an extent. Personally as I’ve said I charge for 11 stat type days. A couple of those days aren’t govt stats. The 11 days I am off but charge for are New Years, Louis Riel day, Good Friday, Victoria Day, Canada Day, Civic in August, Labour Day, Thanksgiving, Remembrance Day, Christmas Day and Boxing Day.  
I’ll ask once again... do you charge for Stat holidays? Or are those days part of your holidays that are unpaid. I also don’t charge children’s sick days or scheduled days off all year.  
And I know from discussions with my parents that they prefer to pay those 11 days instead of paying more daily. It was easier to work on their budget and most schedule their time off then or are off already due to holiday. But thats just my experience.  
But as for rest of time off I absolutely agree, that is providers problem to save for their holidays or sick days.  
And yes on call isn’t fair to compare too, but we most certainly have left the city, province, etc while on call. He basically needs to just carry a phone to answer. Which 99.9% never rings. I was attempting to point out times people weren’t doing something to get paid for but we’re and failed at my flawed thinking in that regard to other people on call with their jobs. Sorry.  
Once again these are my opinions and my experiences.

So FarmerGeorge, tell me this. Why does a car dealership charge me for 2 hours labour when they only worked on my car for half and hour? I asked last time this happened to me, and they said that's the book rate for this job. Nothing to do with how much time they actually worked on my car. I'd say that's a lot more unethical than giving someone notice of what you're going to charge them, months in advance, so they have lots of time to decide if they have a problem with it and move on, or stay.  
 
I get what everyone is thinking when they say they are being charged for nothing - no service provided, so why am I paying for it. The simple solution, and I'd suggest this provider (who I hope is reading this as well) does this in the future - just add a dollar or two to the daily rate. Then 'bank' it, in a sense, to get through the times they aren't taking kids. The parents can decide if the rate is still 'fair' (it probably is).  
 
Yes, daycare providers don't get paid much. I did the math. I got my tax receipt so I know what I paid our provider for a year. Multiply that by 4 kids. The total was less than the poverty level. So when my provider expects to be paid for their 'vacation' time (which is in our signed, paper contract), I don't have a problem with that. If I did, I would find another provider. But I'm still not giving back the paid holiday time my employer gives me, even though I don't provide anything to them during that time.

Maybe if it helps get over the 'paying for nothing' idea, think of holiday time as a benefit for the provider. So she's asking for a fee for service (the days you use) plus a 'benefit'. As others have said, every daycare provider, who is self-employed, can determine how they want to be compensated. Just like regular 'employers' can decide how they will compensate their employees. They all have different combinations of pay plus benefits. Some have great benefits, and some have virtually none. Holidays are generally considered a benefit.

I quite agree. It is pretty standard for dealerships to charge book time for repairs even if the job was done quicker. I never agreed with it , it is dishonest and has more to do with the bonus structure that many dealerships force their technicians to work under. All it does is encourages short cuts to be taken. I have argued against this method for years. I left one large dealership for the reason that I refused to work under that method. Sometimes a job takes longer than book time often due to diagnosis or other issues. Within reason the customer should pay the time taken to carry out the agreed repair and that is how I charge, I’m not getting very rich but I know that I am being honest.

Oh sorry! I thought I answered that in my post about why I do admit that paid stats are tricky and why I think they’re a bit different than personal holidays.  
 
Yes I do charge for stats but currently, at a reduced fee.

I think there are two variables to this topic. One is definitely how the contract is written. The other important factor is if the daycare is charging a daily fee or a monthly fee.

Hmm, that’s an interesting point too.  
 
Personally, effective in the new year, my contract now states that it’s not a daily fee but rather a tuition for the space that is due biweekly or monthly

It all comes down to the fact that the provider had stated in writing that this was a change to their policy during the summer. The parents knew that at some point in the year they would have to pay for days they would also need to make other arrangements for. They are being given ample notice ( a month and half) before those days happen. If the parents didn’t like the change they have already had months to start looking for a new provider.  
Stop complaining about something you knew was coming and have had time to make changes.

There are some wonderful comments already made...  
As you pointed out, you agreed to all of her conditions and signed the paper work. If you were unsure of something, you should have asked her for clarification before accepting the spot, or looked at other providers and their guidelines...  
The fact that you would consider pulling your child out of a place that they are happy and spend the majority of their days, instead of paying in full to keep your spot, is sad for both your child and their provider. You are treating their relationship like a disposable thing, when infact this woman may see and know your child more than you do!  
It is also unfortunate that you care so little about how important her job is to help you raise your child! Good quality daycare is often hard to find, so pick your battles carefully, as you could be in a pickle if she walks away on you, as easily as you may do to her!  
It’s a sour topic to think about the cost of daycare at any level, but don’t ever think that home daycare providers are being overpaid or making bank on their jobs... so far from the reality... as others pointed out, it’s a poverty level job if the provider is following the rules of how many children they can have...  
In Manitoba, minimum wage is over $11 an hour for an entry level job, however, home daycare providers, at the very top end, make less than $4 an hour to take care of your most precious gift each and every day. Gawd forbid they take a well-deserved break at the “expense” of their clients!  
Many double income professional families are easily bringing in upwards of $700 a day combined, while they pay their childcare provider $30-$40 for a 9 to 10 hour day!! No breaks or lunches i:ncluded!  
On the flipslide there are families just barely making it to the next payday, if then, and are in need of substidized homes and centres for families that make less money, but unfortunately these spots fill up way too quickly, so home daycare providers fill that gap in childcare needs. Talk to the government if you want more affordable spaces created!  
Regardless of which end you’re on, it’s still your responsibility as a parent to have a backup plan when your daycare is closed, take care of your own child when they are sick and to follow the guidelines that your provider sets out, as it is her/his home and business.  
Now I realize nobody wants to feel like they are paying for something that they are not receiving... I totally get it and would be the first to argue it... if I didn’t sign on and agree to it already... Your daycare payment likely holds/guarantees you a spot each month, but you should clarify this with her directly and suggest she create a more specific contract if it’s not clear. Every home daycare will have its own fees and expectations that work for their individual home, but regardless, it needs to be understood by everyone involved.  
Please consider that “most” of these people caring for our children also have their own children and families to care for and provide for as well! You are not the only one with monthly bills and kids who want something special for Christmas, or a holiday to spend with just their own people. Honestly, I say koodoos to your daycare lady! Your provider made a smart business choice to i:nclude her holidays and was professional in the fact that she kept you well informed in advance. Don’t knock her for it, just don’t get involved with her, if it doesn’t work for your family.  
A number of parents plan and use their holidays in correspondence with their daycares closures, use grandparents or family/friends to help cover the days off, or yes, some have to hire a teen babysitter (that often gets paid more for two hours than a home daycare makes in two days!)  
In regards to your gift comment, I find it extremely childish of you to say that you’ll keep her gift this year because you are mad that you signed something that apparently you didn’t agree with! How rude and disrespectful of you, after all she does for your child and family!  
You also don’t feel that you should pay for your providers sick days off either but yet If they are sick, it is often from having snotty little hands holding theirs, being coughed on right at eye level, changing diarrhea diapers that parents knowingly sent their child with, but say they are from “teething” not illness, and maybe, just maybe, she needs a day off to just recooperate from the daily chaos that they may have to deal with by small children AND their parents every single day!  
Daycare is sadly an underpaid and under respected job,despite its significant impact on the futures of our children. Most providers are caring and empathetic people who enjoy their job and do it to help parents in the community fill a void and love working with children, not to be slandered... talk to your provider like a responsible and respectful grown up and figure things out with her or move on.  
On a separate side note: I am curious how daycare people on here have time during their work day (aside from nap times) to write such lengthy responses if they are tending to children’s needs?! Caregivers of any age continuously on their phones is a HUGE issue to me and I see it all over... if you worked at a center or as a teacher, this would not be tolerated! Just saying.  
XO Do what works best for you and yours but respect how difficult, and rewarding, working and surviving in the daycare industry really is...

I’ll address your side note. Those teachers and center workers would be alotted a break at recess, lunch, coffee etc. And would have opportunity throughout those breaks to look at their phone. As may a home provider. Kids may be napping, or independent play with provider sitting right beside them, etc. Those commenting may be off sick today, scheduled day off with no pay or have kids off. Many providers use their phone to look up art ideas, holiday ideas, answer messages from parents or to message parents or own kids, look up sensory ideas, etc. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t check my phone periodically. Especially for art ideas. Yet my children are looked after, fed, loved, changed, cleaned up, happy, etc. Taking a few minutes out of your day as long as children are content, can sincerely help balance the day. Some days are worse than others. My day at work is 10 hours long, then an additional hour of cleaning and prepping for next day (groceries, crafts prep, restocking diapers, washing bottles, etc).  
I feel taking a couple mins here and there while sitting with the children is perfectly acceptable. That’s my “break”. If you don’t want that for your provider or are concerned your child isn’t getting looked after appropriately due to someone checking their phone, then please say something, or find a new daycare. I’ve rarely commented on this site for months, but I thought I’d offer an opinion today on the subject as well as try to learn on how maybe I can improve in my fees, etc.

Professional families earning combined $700 a day. Yeah that’s great and all but I doubt OP or their spouse is a doctor. I can only dream of pulling in $350 a day personally and if I was I’d probably completely agree that the OP is in the wrong. Unfortunately I’d say a majority of our households aren’t pulling in the $6-700 a day you speak of. Paying $600/month (I’m guessing because I cant afford to even entertain the thought of daycare) on top of rent/mortgage, food, kids clothes, and other bills makes for a tight budget for a good chunk of Brandonites. It’s a tough situation to be in for both the parent and provider, but I cant blame the parent for feeling screwed even if “they were notified months earlier of the possibility” they probably weren’t anticipating this delightful clause to strike up during one of the busiest and budget sensitive times of the year. I think there needs to be a bit of give and take from both sides. Your guilting of the parent for even considering switching providers is ludicrous, they obviously are in a very difficult situation that if money wasn’t an issue, they would probably also be working in a more flexible workplace and wouldn’t have an issue paying either.

Yup, exactly what she said! Lol. Days off, nap times, kids free playing, low numbers, non helicopter type provider..the list could go on  
 
For myself, I write my replies in my notes section first and then post it when I can. I get sidetracked and time out if I don’t do it this way lol. I also have a second adult here during the day and I am lucky enough to use this person to get a quick break if needed.  
 
Also, I’ve had parents who are teachers and they sometimes responded the fastest to a message lol so yes, some do have their phones on them as well. In fact, many if not all, of my clients are able to respond during work hours.  
 
I get the concern with cell phone issue in the workplace but it really doesn’t distract most of us any more than a coworker talking to us in a centre would, or a play date with another provider or having someone come over to the house. Cell phone use *usually* does not equate to the provider not offering safe and adequate supervision.  
 
Many of us view each other as coworkers and will send messages for advice, support, venting during our days. If you think your provider is incapable of safely supervising your child while doing these things, that is an issue you should definitely address with them though!

Oh and your $4 per hour is a bit flawed...you need to time’s that by how many kids the provider has. Most of us make just over min wage so it’s not much better but we don’t make just $4/hr unless we only have one kid.  
 
And no I’m not gonna get into the expenses and deductions part of the business cuz that’s boring haha, just keeping the hourly rate at face value to keep it easy

Forsure! They could be on holidays, not have children in their care at those times, or have nappers... I don’t know their personal business...  
But I know that I see phones as a distraction from childcare providers and parents, all too often... children begging for attention while their grownups thumbs tap along: children getting into mischief while parents or caregivers are playing a game on their phone: a child injuring another child in public and the caregiver not even noticing, despite being right there... on their phone...  
Absolutely we all rely heavily on our phones for accessing information whether it be creatively or socially and of course we all need to be available to the outside world and have some down time... however, responding to social media discussions should not be a priority during the work day, when children are awake, in my opinion...  
And you are right, there are limited breaks for home daycare providers, so they are constantly multitasking... but some people never put their phones down!  
By all means, use your phone to have brain breaks or seek out information for brief periods of time, however, when I see providers sitting on their phones for LENGTHY periods of time in public spaces ignoring their clients, or notice that the times of their posts are during times when children are generally active and should be spending time doing activities with the person I’m paying to take care of them, I am annoyed... There are enough distractions in a busy daycare or family without adding the extra involvement of the technology world...

Am sure that I will get shot down for this .  
I am a farmer, therefore self employed and average 12-14 hour days working 365 days a year. I don’t receive any paid holiday, stat or sick pay. If I don’t work my cows go hungry and my crop doesn’t get sown. Whatever is going on on my life if the weather is right to do a job I have to be there doing it no exception. I don’t employ any help as there is no one that will work to my standards available or that will work the hours required. I am not complaining, I chose to leave a good well paid career so that I could do this and I love it. As a self employed businessman I don’t expect anyone to subsidize me or my lifestyle and I don’t expect anyone to pay me for not working. There are lots of self employed people in many industries in a similar situation.

And that’s the lifestyle you chose, and good on you as that is not an easy job by any means. And this is the life we chose, and being self employed means that you can choose how you want to operate. You choose your hours, days, lack of hired help, etc. We choose to have paid stat days. This is what we are offering in our contracts, you don’t have to accept it. Take it or leave it as it is. We are responsible for tiny human lives, a parents most precious being, there’s a lot of responsibility in that. And I’m not saying it’s more stressful than farming, but it certainly can take its toll. If we feel it’s our due, than that ultimately is up to us to decide.

Are the commitments that we accept when we become self employed. We forego benefits, regular pay cheque’s, regular work hours and luxuries. We work to please our customers. Customers and their business are a privilege that we have to earn. We should bend over backwards to earn their trust. The Customer has always and always will be the king and it is our job to take care of their needs. The customer is our bread and butter! A lot of people would do well to remember that employed or self employed.

Lol Brandon Brandon, no I don’t think I am her provider. But if on the off chance I am, she needs to know that I will not be changing how I operate. There may be a better suited provider out there for her. And I encourage all parents to find caregivers that meet their standards. If anyone feels their child isn’t getting enough attention or activities, or feel upset that they are posting on social media while you are paying them, please start looking for other care. That leaves the daycare to fill the spot with others who may be a better fit.

Daycare is not like farming and daycare is not like your mechanic.  
 
I have been trying to find something better to compose it to - gym membership- is that closer? You follow their rules, their hours, pay whether they are open or closed, regardless if you attend or not. Is that a better example? Lol  
 
Providers set their own rules. It’s their home and their business. If you do not want to follow the rules she has set out then you are free to find somewhere that suits you. The great part of it is everyone will run their businesses different. Nobody will be the same. Find one that works and go there, give proper notice and hope you have made the right decision. Sometimes the grass isn’t always greener, sometimes it is.  
 
Interested OP if you have found a new daycare??

I always find conversations like this so interesting...do we not fail to realize these care providers are practically raising the next generation of adults and we still treat them like they are exposable.... in my personal opinion we should give a lot more credit and money to these people who decide to educate and train other people's children...we give them the minimum in every way possible and expect, nah, we demand signs and wonders. I still believe that parents should be the ones training their children, but that is another topic completely. I don't think we can compare childcare to anything than what it is, these people most likely spend more time awake with your child than you do, that in itself should say a lot...shouldn't we treat them more than the bottom of the barrel?... the entitlement that seems to come along with everything now days is exasperating me...

Well actually no one is entitled to anything and no one owes any of us a living either. Everyone employed or self employed is here to work and to serve each other.

Ok I talked to daycare again and they said that because it s a knew rule and that I still have work on some of those holidays days and pay another babysitter that for this year they will only charge me for 1-2 of the full price for the days that they are closed but still wanted payed. because, I would have probly payed that much for a present anyway I am not thinking of the morel of it and instead thinking that I would be paying the same money ether way. I am good with that for this year and will keep that daycare and maybe later when I am cooled off from thinking about all the expenses of the holidays I will have different thoghts on the morels of it hahahaha. and next year I will have holidays at xmas and it wonnt be a problem of paying anyother babysitter I hope. thanx for everybodys thoghts.

Glad everything worked out and that you talked to her about it and have made a plan for the future.  
 
Going forward you know exactly what to expect now and can plan accordingly.

I am happy to hear your provider was willing to make an adjustment.  
 
I have read through most of the comments on here and was alarmed at the way some of the providers speak of the people who are paying for child care. Without those people you wouldn’t have a job! So to speak of raising their children with that attitude is unsettling!  
 
You are paid to do a job, if you call it tuition then you better have a substitute when you need a day off! The money made when you take the day off can go to your sub. Problem solved!  
 
Everyone is going on about the wage, do you not get to write off your hydro, use of your home space etc. Are you not allotted a certain amount of money per child you have in your care to purchase new supplies? Or are you just getting $4 an hour? You may be your own boss but you are accountable to the parents and the government to keep your license.