Discussions

I wanted to pass on the following link to an open letter/petition that parents can sign to voice their opposition to Bill 64 as it stands right now.  
 
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd5WyHQRL8ccE_5iR-ZLZQv3UDXRzxX3CLl-HfnRDkr2tZ3Tw/viewform

School divisions are being run inefficiently and Manitoba kids are not achieving results in line with the rest of Canada. Something needs to change , money needs to be better allocated to actually educating the kids . They are constantly behind, my sixteen year old is learning math at a level that I was learning at twelve years old, and math isn’t my strong point! There are too many tiers of management sucking the system dry. Management needs to be centralized, costs controlled and improvements in education achieved.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2021-03-28 00:54:40

Yes I have to agree with farmergeorge!  
 
Our education system is lacking big time. Its time our money is spent on the kids and their education vs doing other things.  
 
If anything there should be support for this bill!

I think this bill I also a good thing. Please think twice about signing that petition.

For those who oppose bill 64, how many people of them atleast ever were partially involve with school board politics and voted. Do you know your school trustees? Did they complain when the NDP chopped the number divisions in 2002 I believe it was?  
 
While the bill isn't perfect by any means, it may solve some of the inefficiencies which school divisions have. Winnipeg does not need 6 school divisions! School boards shouldn't be training grounds to enter provincial politics which is what 1 NDP MLA did.  
 
Edited by alight, 2021-03-28 08:30:30

I do know our school trustees.  
I am not eligible to vote or participate in school board or any other politics.  
There are too many management tiers compared to the numbers of kids being educated and this amongst other things contributes to poor results being achieved in Manitoba.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2021-03-28 08:39:59

Whenever there was an election along with the mayor and council i usually spoiled my ballot.  
What do our children learn is school anyway? I can remember talking to some of the neighbourhood children walking home from school asking them what the did in the afternoon. Their answer? Someone brought something to eat, they sampled and then talked about whether they enjoyed the food!  
Another time waiting in line at 7/11 a young couple came in to buy chicken fingers, they said that finding who made the best chicken fingers in Brandon was a school project! What!  
I also think the children need to pick up pens and pencils and books!  
It's fine to know computers and I'm not saying that they're not vital to society but computers tend to make a person lazy. Everything's too easy.  
And Pallister's right, if your child is having an issue your go and talk to the teacher. Or in my case when I was a kid the principal.  
At least the Tories have the guts to try to improve education.

When this first hit the news had to google to see who the trustee was in our area. I don't remember the last time there was an actual election in our area for trustee. In by acclamation or sometimes appointed.  
 
If a parent has a problem I bet they go to the teacher or principal first before a trustee.  
 
Sometimes changes are needed or they wouldn't be considering it.

I don't have kids so I'm not versed on what the issues are good or bad, but reading thru some of the petition, whats the deal with the emphasis on "English" school boards, why wouldn't other language schools be included or are they already ran different ?

but I think the province is leaving the French school divisions as is? So that's probably why the petition only mentions English school divisions?

Forgive my ignorance, but I hesitate to see how simply removing more layers of management is going to be the fix of the problems of the educational system. Are we aware of precisely WHY the children are struggling?  
 
From what I've heard, my focus would first be on the methodology instead of the beaurocracy.  
 
This is not to say that systemic efficiency isn't important. However, it bothers me how many times in the last 2 BSD-related election campaigns I've seen candidates laser focused on that aspect alone. After all, when you become overly focused on operational costs, it almost guarantees that a given cohort WILL fall through the cracks.

Levels of beaurocracy and institutionalism have to be removed not only to better reallocate resources to the classroom but also to introduce lasting and positive change.  
Personally I don’t think that this goes far enough. I think that education should be administered as a national program ensuring fair and equal opportunities for all kids in this country.

I don't think there's any doubt that there's A LOT of bureaucracy in the MB system, to the point of excess. There should be less school divisions, especially in the Winnipeg region!! But what they're proposing is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.  
 
What bothers me the most about this proposed bill is:  
 
- the lack of transparency, ranging from how the bill was initially presented, to how they gathered data, to how this proposal diverged from their own consultant's recommendation,  
 
- the lack of clear plan HOW this is going to improve outcomes without it first addressing the fundamental reason why children have poor outcomes to begin with (poverty), and  
 
- the obvious cherry-picking for data that they're pulling from other jurisdictions to support their claims, the most obvious being the trustee per capita number they are advertising without accounting for the very different funding structures and the way public system function in their chosen provinces (AB & ON in this case, which have multiple parallel taxpayer-funded systems, yet they only present data for a single system).  
 
To answer the question above, they are legally obligated to leave the French school division (DSFM) alone. There is a long, sordid history, especially in Manitoba, of the suppression of French language education, which the community fought long and hard to have overturned. This is going back to Confederation and Manitoba's creation.

someone kindly point me in the right direction to find the knowledge that a grade 12 student is expected to attain. I have looked on the web but can only find details for grades 1-8.  
What sort of test paper would they have to take in say Mathematics and English, presumably without access to calculators or computers.  
As a bit of fun, this link has a few questions from the UK 11plus exams, this exam was taken by all pupils before they went to secondary school at the age of 11. No calculators or computers allowed.  
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/jun/30/schools.uk5

I don’t fully agree with your reasoning for poor educational outcomes ( although poverty is a factor). I don’t think that the system or the curriculum in it’s current form is placing enough emphasis on teaching core foundational subjects such as mathematics, sciences , home economics , history, geography, English , foreign languages and some basic trade related subjects. I think that kids need to be pushed harder and more homework assigned and I don’t believe that kids should be taken out of assigned class time for distractions such as sports played outside of the school system.

With all due respect George, I think you should stick to farming. Most of the modern literature shows no correlation between homework and academic achievement. And as for sports and other extra-curriculars, they are vital for character growth and creating well-rounded citizens.  
 
I have so many other thoughts on this bill, and this god awful government in general, but who has the time to delve into it? Solving the poverty in equity crises in this mess of a province needs to be the first priority.

I totally agree, funds need to be better allocated. I have 3 children in the education system and I will not be signing this petition. Things need to change.

Yeah “let’s go back to when I was in school.” “Core subjects” blah blah  
MAGA BS.  
 
The language in the bill is copy pasted from a think tank whose language finds its way into union-busting-regulation-shredding-privitization legislation.  
Usually followed by the monetization of formerly publicly run institutions.  
 
“Ignore the poor” governance.  
 
It seems that the majority of the posts in this thread demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge and perspective of what is happening in schools. You should be thankful that students are learning more than what you were learning decades ago. Quit looking at it through the lens of your own outdated experience.  
 
Basing stuff on what you’ve learned in a lineup at 7-11? Cmon man. That’s like making a judgement on what kind a person someone would be by reading a post on eBrandon.  
 
For example, some people on this thread are know it all, keyboard warrior, head in the sand teacher and school system haters. You see the problem on making judgements on one interaction?  
 
Starting an argument with “My experience is “blah blah blah” ... allows personal bias to be the driving force in the justification of one’s position. But do you really know what it’s like to be a non English speaking learner, being taught Gr 5 in a classroom of 26? Or truly what’s involved on the teaching and cost side of helping these students demonstrate grade level learning on outcomes? Or what about the child of a meth addict who gets their siblings to school on their own ?  
 
Or worse, do you even care as long as it works out for you?  
 
The Pisa test itself is problematic and what’s happening in Manitoba demonstrates the problem with putting full faith in a one off assessment of 15 year olds. It’s a political tool.  
 
But if you really believe that this one assessment is valid, then why panic ?Manitoba, on its own, would score ahead of many so called elite nations such as Switzerland. 8 out of 10 MBs are scoring with their peers across Canada and those who aren’t it’s because of poverty. The link is well established.  
 
Bill 64 is a full on powergrab plain and simple. Its design is to remove any obstruction to the premier’s power and influence. That’s why the bill ignored the recommendations of review. It’s designed to reduce costs, at any cost.  
 
Here’s a suggestion, maybe follow the recommendations of the review? But this government is about ignoring and hiding information from the population.  
 
The conservative playbook is well known and established. They will remove teachers from classrooms, they will close schools, they will remove worker rights and they’ll do it all under the cloak of “modernization”.

Appreciate the debate this has stirred up, and feel that some points need to be added.  
 
While I agree that amalgamation in itself isn’t all bad, there are some realities that come with the way it is being proposed.  
 
For example, currently the local trustees have oversight of how curriculum is implemented and how programs are carried out within a division. Under the proposed new structuring an education authority will determine those things fit the entire division. Who is going to on that committee? Political appointees. At least in the current structuring there is local say and local faces. With the amalgamations there could be reduction in trustees still. But instead now everything will be controlled by the government out of Winnipeg and each new division will have one rep that reports back to the new politically appointed board. One person is going to represent all of Winnipeg schools? One person is going to represent all the schools in Brandon? Oh and that person is going to be an unpaid parent. Who wants that job?  
 
8/10 students are at level. That is nothing to scoff at. Unfortunately 2/10 mostly represent cases of poverty and lack of English as a first language, plus many have been kids in CFS care. If we don’t fix the root cause of the problems we aren’t likely to see any growth.  
 
Just remember that when they cut out the education tax from property taxes we all will be taxed elsewhere. For some there may be savings, but for many it will actually be more.  
 
Is the system perfect, nope sure isn’t. But personally I’m not taking the government’s claims at face value that this is how you fix it and modernize it. If that were truly their focus I believe they would choose a much more successful system to model after - for example Finland’s, who is the leader in educational achievement, rather then copy and paste a model from the US that is proving to be worse than our own based on their placing in the same assessments.  
 
Before you take everything at face value from the government please be sure to read the bills and read the education document for yourself so that you’re truly aware of all that it contains.

I am a fifth generation farmer, first generation immigrant, qualified vehicle technician , qualified auto electrician, owner of two small businesses. I am step parent to a daughter that has found the current blended learning environment to be beneficial to her studies, she has used this time to work hard without the distractions found in the undisciplined pre covid school setting and this has suited her better.  
I am not particularly academic and I am not that smart but I am not stupid either.  
I am also not prepared to be intimidated or belittled by a bully whom cannot understand or accept the need for changes!  
I fully respect those in the teaching profession. They have a difficult job stuck working in a system that clearly is not working well for our kids education. However change in the Manitoba education system is inevitable and wholly necessary.  
For your information all governments are god awful and incompetent but it’s the best that we have and we have to work with them towards positive change.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2021-03-29 00:23:13

Basing stuff on what I learned standing in a line at 7/11,  
yeah, making a grade on finding out who makes the best chicken fingers in Brandon? Cause that kind of learning/knowledge is going to change the world! Oh my!  
 
BTW I know lots of newcomers to our city and their children excel, they are the best learners because their parents help them be the best they can! And they learn English pretty damn well.  
 
Maybe we think changes need to be made for schooling because we get amazed at how many young people out there working don't even know how to make change when we're making a payment?

I've had weird projects like that... the chicken fingers thing. The point of the project wasn't the project itself but to research and collect data, find variables to compare things, and then there was a big report that went with it where we had to analyze the different options based on the control factors. I'm not saying that's what the students at 7- 11 had to do, but it sounds familiar.  
 
Does anyone know, under this new bill, how the schools will actually get more funding? Like where the money is coming from, how it will be allocated to schools? And how this will actually improve curriculum? I just don't see the logistics behind it.

Excellent assessment of the situation.  
 
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/bill-64-earns-a-failing-grade-574086682.html

Improvements in the classroom will be funded through cost savings achieved through reduction of school divisions.  
A necessary step as the public purse is not unlimited.

I came to say this exact thing. It's like having students do research assignments on completely irrelevant or meaningless topics. The goal is to build critical thinking, information analysis, and fact finding skills.

children nowadays need the basics - math, spelling (without the use of a phone), etc etc and also life skills. Oh, and definitely writing. Some children can only print and not even sign their own name. What's with that?? If the new bill can achieve that, I'm for it. BUT, I doubt it!!!

Ok, so I’ve been looking at it all and I can’t figure out how it will actually save more money.  
 
They say principals will not have to do the budgeting anymore so they can focus on instructional leadership, so in place business managers will be added.  
 
No school boards, but they will be paying an appointed board of how many people? I can guarantee you those jobs will pay big money.  
 
Winnipeg with one superintendent? Doubt it. That is way too many schools. So while their might be one superintendent there will be multiple assistants.  
 
They very casually threw out how much they were going to save, but can’t say how many people will lose jobs. That’s alarming.  
 
Also, with them centralizing procurement of materials out of Winnipeg there will be no procurement in small towns anymore. So that will impact on local economy. No more getting the local guy to supply or repair.  
 
Just because they say it is going to save money, I wouldn’t actually believe it. Also, cost savings will make up for the fact that local areas will lost their autonomy and voice in Winnipeg.

I have terrible writing skills. But that is why I like tools such as Grammarly.  
 
Such highlights another issue in my mind. Are school boards and education systems striking a balance between adequately preparing youth for all aspects of today's rapidly evolving technological landscape, and //the basics//?  
 
Given that most legislation towards cyberbullying-esk stuff (consider revenge porn) tends to be reactionary, I'm inclined to think we're dropping the ball in many of these areas. But, this is just a sort of side project that has been on my mind for a while now.  
 
If I ever figure out how to square this ever-evolving circle and communicate it to everyday voters, I may run for school board or trustee .  
 
Well, if we don't become Winnipeg West school division.  
 
Edited by Simonwalcal, 2021-03-30 16:43:54

Trimming top heavy bloat would be huge. It does seem like a "all or nothing" approach in some ways.  
 
Our curriculum desperately needs an overall. Anything I have ever seen about Manitoba's education has it in the bottom 5 of canada. I would love to see a study that says different.

Just curious (and I am genuinely curious) - what would you like to see change in the curriculum?  
 
There are some things that I would be interested in changing. For example, I think the optional personal finance course should be a requirement for all students. Although there are a lot of finance topics in the essential and applied math streams such as job payment and deductions, investments, credit cards, general banking, loans, and mortgages that most people don’t realize exist. I know at one point taxes were in the curriculum but that became difficult to teach. Personally I would also like to see a minimum of one science at the grade 11 and 12 level become mandatory, but I would like to see an open unit of study available at the grade 9/10 level first so that students could study a science of interest to them.  
 
A couple of things to note. MB has essentially the same high school curriculum as BC, AB, and SK as we are part of the Western Canadian Protocol for curriculum. At least that holds true for math and the sciences.  
 
Second, there are reports that do show that 8/10 students in the province are at level and that the poverty levels for those not achieving at level are extremely high and strongly correlated.