Discussions

I understand your view and it’s one I hadn’t really thought of. So thanks for providing that perspective.  
 
To me, supporting local is about who is benefiting from my purchase. The employees of mega businesses aren’t benefiting from my purchase. The company is. When I make a purchase, who is having their pockets lined? Are they appreciate and happy for my purchase? A small business owner or crafter is. So my shopping, when possible, is done at local stores that aren’t chains or home business owners.  
 
That being said, I do have my utilities and other services through major businesses. This is due to the monopoly on utilities. There is very little choice. But, I appreciate your perspective and as such, I am going to look into switching my internet to a local provider.

You're hilarious to think that by only purchasing things from a local small business that its benefiting the employee at the til anymore than someone working at a big store.  
 
Its the exact same, employee sells you items, boss see's the cash. Employee gets hourly/salary but boss gets dividends etc. With little to no raise or benefit to the average employee. Its quite naive to think that a small business isnt the same as the big box business, they are.  
 
The only difference is that the small business is on a smaller scale of greed than the larger business.

Each provides a unique service. Usually local has the one off items that I need. With average stuff be realistic, they cannot compete with big box. Big box still supports local by employing local people. Sure profits leave the city. Don't think that local businesses don't spend their money outside of town. Many locals have condos down south where they vacation, summer cottages are outside the city.

Suckie said "You're hilarious to think that by only purchasing things from a local small business that its benefiting the employee at the til anymore than someone working at a big store.     Its the exact same, employee sells you items, boss see's the cash. Employee gets hourly/salary but boss gets dividends etc. With little to no raise or benefit to the average employee. Its quite naive to think that a small business isnt the same as the big box business, they are.     The only difference is that the small business is on a smaller scale of greed than the larger business. "

You take a local electronics store, local garage, local restaurant, local grocery store, local jeweler, local plumber, local electrician, local cable company and put them in a town.  
 
The family's that own those business have kids in school, they are IN the community, you know who they are you see them at the hockey games. They know the community they offer levels of service based on social pressures as well as profit. They all sponsor soccer teams and school fundraisers, etc because they are part of the community. They don't close the local store because they did a study that found it was cheaper to make everyone go the central hub store 50kms away.  
 
They can extend credit on a handshake because they've known you since you were 6 years old and their kid plays hockey with you and your Dad went to school with him. They say things like "Pay me next time you're in..."  
 
They have to do better because they can't just apply for another job across the street, they've got everything they are tied up in this business...how many times have you gone to the big box store and tried to find the guy that sold you that thing you bought only to find out "oh he's gone". Or tried to return something but didn't have. receipt?  
 
You ever try to complain to a local business that actually depends on local dollars? compare that to complaining to BELL.  
 
I could rant for another 6 pages but what would be the point, the local business is a thing of the past. Even I work for larger international business's keeping 5% of what you pay them and sending the other 95% to head office...

But even large national/internationally owned businesses are managed by local people.  
The managers kids go to the same school as your kids. You'll see them at the hockey game, you'll bump into them at the grocery store.  
I do agree that profits from lager national companies end up being spent outside our local community but i also agree with the post that a lot of successful local business owners spend a lot of their profits outside our local community on vacation homes, other businesses they own elsewhere etc.  
A lot of larger national franchises are seeing how important it is to have a local community precence with the likes of Tim Hortons & McDonald's sponsoring teams and events. BELL/MTS do local community programming much like Westman cable but maybe not on such a grand scale.  
 
I think there are people who are die hard "support local" advocates but I think we need to expand our level of thinking when we consider what supporting local actually means.  
 
If a national/international company provides employment to 100s of local people doesn't that mean we are supporting our local economy by providing income for local people?  
 
What if we boycott Walmart and we all stop shopping there in favour of a locally owned store that employs a fraction of the employees. What would happen to all those local people if those jobs went away? Would that be good for our local economy?  
 
Supporting local to me means spending money in your community. Shopping at a big box retailer that employs local people is supporting local.  
 
Just my thoughts.

MrDobalina said "    Suckie said "You're hilarious to think that by only purchasing things from a local small business that its benefiting the employee at the til anymore than someone working at a big store.     Its the exact same, employee sells you items, boss see's the cash. Employee gets hourly/salary but boss gets dividends etc. With little to no raise or benefit to the average employee. Its quite naive to think that a small business isnt the same as the big box business, they are.     The only difference is that the small business is on a smaller scale of greed than the larger business. " You take a local electronics store, local garage, local restaurant, local grocery store, local jeweler, local plumber, local electrician, local cable company and put them in a town.     The family's that own those business have kids in school, they are IN the community, you know who they are you see them at the hockey games. They know the community they offer levels of service based on social pressures as well as profit. They all sponsor soccer teams and school fundraisers, etc because they are part of the community. They don't close the local store because they did a study that found it was cheaper to make everyone go the central hub store 50kms away.     They can extend credit on a handshake because they've known you since you were 6 years old and their kid plays hockey with you and your Dad went to school with him. They say things like "Pay me next time you're in..."     They have to do better because they can't just apply for another job across the street, they've got everything they are tied up in this business...how many times have you gone to the big box store and tried to find the guy that sold you that thing you bought only to find out "oh he's gone". Or tried to return something but didn't have. receipt?     You ever try to complain to a local business that actually depends on local dollars? compare that to complaining to BELL.     I could rant for another 6 pages but what would be the point, the local business is a thing of the past. Even I work for larger international business's keeping 5% of what you pay them and sending the other 95% to head office... "

Small local business owner and tend to agree with you Suckie. MrDobalina, most of your response describes a trusting small rural / town mentality. The op is about supporting LOCAL PEOPLE regardless of where their place of employment is based out of. The deals on handshakes that you mentioned did not happen much involving large businesses in urban centres involved in global trade. Today those handshakes may happen between such companies but it’s usually behind closed doors and under the table....ones that us common folk don’t hear about. As far as I’m concerned this “local” thing is largely an advertising gimmick that in most cases has little to do with reality and is mostly about consumer perception, thereby drawing you to spend your money there. Just like using words like “natural” “whole” and “nothing added”. If your decision to buy something is based on these words appearing on the package or in the advertising, the company’s advertising plan is working. Is there a limit to how far from your residence is still “local”? Perception.

It's not an either/or proposal. Both local businesses and big retailers provide necessary employment in the community. What the difference is, however, is in the type and number of jobs provided, as well as real estate implications.  
 
Let's say, for example, that Big Box A, a general retailer, has 10,000 transactions a week, and employs 150 local people. We'll assume there's a mix of full and part time, at a ratio of about 50% full time (let's be generous). Now, keep in mind, that's 150 people TOTAL, including stockers, cleaners, management, office staff, and front-line workers like cashiers.  
 
Now, there are currently no "locally owned and operated" general retailer in this city that can service 5000 people a week. So, instead of a single Big Box retailer, you might have 10 small retailers, that can each service 1000 people a week, which works out to be about an average 142 transactions a day (about 12 transactions a hour), assuming they're open Sundays. I've worked small retail, and that would be phenomenal if there were 140+ transactions a day for a lot of these businesses.  
 
Now let's also assume, because there's no Big Box retailer, than the Small Retailers are open 9 to 9, or 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (and only 6 hours on Sunday). That's 78 hours they are open a week. Most places with that many transactions will have at least 2 (if for no other reason other than safety), if not 3 front-line staff on duty during peak hours. For simplicity, let's estimate at 2 staff all the time, which means there's 156 man-hours that need staffing during a week. To cover those 156 open hours, you would need at least 4 staff (which gives them 39/hours a week, or full-time hours, something Big Box doesn't do).  
 
Now, this is only an estimate. Many people work part-time hours, students for example. So let's assume that only 2 of those positions are full-time (39 hours), and the other 2 positions are divided to make part-time hours of about 19 hours each. So now, we have a total of 6 staff working front line positions (2 full time + 4 part time).  
 
But wait. Who's stocking? Is business sufficiently slow that the front-line staff can stock as they go during the day? Maybe. Certainly when it's slow, you can have one on till and one stocking, but not during busy times when stocking might be more critical. Maybe you do the stocking mostly at night. If it's a food retailer, there will be stocking needing to be done during the day. If nothing else, you need someone loading and unloading stock as it arrives so it can move to the floor. Let's assume there's 2 stockers/merchandisers that work full-time or close to full-time, to keep things humming in the back and moving to the front. They won't always need to be there, and sometimes you might need both, but it works out you have 2 full-time guys doing that. Keeping in the 50% is part time, that means 1 full time person but 2 part timers, so a total of 3 staff.  
 
Cleaning. Who cleans? In small businesses, often general cleaning happens during slow times, but usually there's someone who will come after hours and do a deep cleaning, floors, etc. Do you hire a dedicated person to do this several times a week, or hire out? If you keep it in-house, it's probably only 1 person anyway. You could also hire a local contractor.  
 
So, so far we've employed 10 people without even breaking a sweat. But we're not done yet!!  
 
Management: You might run the store yourself, but in all likelyhood you'll hire a manager if you're sufficiently busy. One position full-time, maybe 1 or 2 part-timers. So now our theoretical business might be up to 13 people just under your pay umbrella.  
 
But city by-law says that the sidewalk in front of the business must be cleared, and you don't have enough staff to be shoveling. Contract out to a local business.  
 
You need payroll, so you either hire an accountant/bookkeeper or just hire out a payroll company. The payroll is done locally, because now there's enough local businesses to merit having a local company doing payroll instead of shipping it to corporate, possibly in Winnipeg, Toronto or the US somewhere.  
 
You need IT infrastructure and servicing, and maybe a website. You hire local people instead of relying on corporate.  
 
Maybe you need a local warehouse instead of getting everything shipped from Winnipeg from a central warehouse, like the Big Box people do. So a local warehouse sets up, servicing a few similar businesses. Those jobs are here instead of Winnipeg or somewhere else. There's also local guys employed to drive the delivery trucks.  
 
So you see how that works? Not only do local businesses have the potential to directly employ the same number of people, the economic activity they generate locally instead of shipping it off to corporate or Winnipeg or wherever generates more higher-end employment and, in turn, supports more small businesses, which generates more employment, etc.  
 
The example of the internet service provider - yes both the Local Guy and The Others have local staff for installs and infrastructure, but if you call the help desk, where does it pick up? Winnipeg or Brandon? Where are the parts getting warehoused? Here or somewhere else? Ultimately, where are the profits distributed? Here or shareholders?  
 
In terms of real estate, you could have a single mega-entity taking up a huge parcel of land, or many smaller entities infilling in different places around the city. Also, buildings need to be maintained and managed. Which one will generate more spin-off employment?  
 
There's a lot to think about in these types of discussions.

So you''''re trying to tell me that - correct me if I''''m wrong here...  
 
A big retailer employing 150 people is somehow equivelant to having 30-50 people including outside contractors periodically is the same just because they are local??  
 
Buildings do need to be maintained - You''''re correct. Big box companies have to hire contractors for things like that in the same way a small local business does. You can''''t honestly think that walmart has their own employee''''s changing light fixtures 20ft in the air? Or that best buy gets their associates to do preventative maintenance on the massive air handling units on the roof?  
 
i work for a small ish business and we hire outside contractors for repairs all the time because we aren''t qualified to do most of those jobs.  
 
There is also a convenience factor in the big box store vs a small business. Everything you need under one roof, based on our geographical location thats a pretty sweet idea. If i go to a local business and they have 2/7 items i want... but the big box store had 7/7 at better prices - personally for me, thats where I''''m going. The almighty dollar is what it boils down too for a lot of people.  
 
I''''m not saying small business doesn''''t have its place here because i wouldn''''t be employed without them. It just seems to make less of a difference where money is spent as either way a boss is making money, someone is earning a wage, someone is repairing their building for them.  
 
Edited by Suckie, 2018-11-06 13:30:56

Doesn't matter to me too much about "local". I own 2 businesses and people come back for the good service and quality of work. As far as my purchases go: I was just looking for a new laptop 2 weeks ago. Go into one store and there's a shelf full of computers on display. I picked out 2. Both got the same response. "Oh sorry, we don't have it in stock, but you can order it off our website". Exact same quote word for word at the next electronics store.  
Furniture stores are just as bad. I needed a new appliance this summer, 4 furniture stores and none had the model "in the back" that was on the floor. I said I'd take a floor model because I needed my laundry done. Nope, I could order one and get it in a few weeks. I went to Maurice's in Killarney. "We don't have that one in stock, but you're welcome to take the floor model if you want. Full warranty and everything still". Thank you Maurice's.  
Buy local or not, I don't care. Good service gets my business, but when I shop on amazon, don't even think of preaching to me about buying local if you're just going to tell me to go look on your website.

nicemoustache said "    MrDobalina said "    Suckie said "You're hilarious to think that by only purchasing things from a local small business that its benefiting the employee at the til anymore than someone working at a big store.     Its the exact same, employee sells you items, boss see's the cash. Employee gets hourly/salary but boss gets dividends etc. With little to no raise or benefit to the average employee. Its quite naive to think that a small business isnt the same as the big box business, they are.     The only difference is that the small business is on a smaller scale of greed than the larger business. " You take a local electronics store, local garage, local restaurant, local grocery store, local jeweler, local plumber, local electrician, local cable company and put them in a town.     The family's that own those business have kids in school, they are IN the community, you know who they are you see them at the hockey games. They know the community they offer levels of service based on social pressures as well as profit. They all sponsor soccer teams and school fundraisers, etc because they are part of the community. They don't close the local store because they did a study that found it was cheaper to make everyone go the central hub store 50kms away.     They can extend credit on a handshake because they've known you since you were 6 years old and their kid plays hockey with you and your Dad went to school with him. They say things like "Pay me next time you're in..."     They have to do better because they can't just apply for another job across the street, they've got everything they are tied up in this business...how many times have you gone to the big box store and tried to find the guy that sold you that thing you bought only to find out "oh he's gone". Or tried to return something but didn't have. receipt?     You ever try to complain to a local business that actually depends on local dollars? compare that to complaining to BELL.     I could rant for another 6 pages but what would be the point, the local business is a thing of the past. Even I work for larger international business's keeping 5% of what you pay them and sending the other 95% to head office... " Small local business owner and tend to agree with you Suckie. MrDobalina, most of your response describes a trusting small rural / town mentality. The op is about supporting LOCAL PEOPLE regardless of where their place of employment is based out of. The deals on handshakes that you mentioned did not happen much involving large businesses in urban centres involved in global trade. Today those handshakes may happen between such companies but it’s usually behind closed doors and under the table....ones that us common folk don’t hear about. As far as I’m concerned this “local” thing is largely an advertising gimmick that in most cases has little to do with reality and is mostly about consumer perception, thereby drawing you to spend your money there. Just like using words like “natural” “whole” and “nothing added”. If your decision to buy something is based on these words appearing on the package or in the advertising, the company’s advertising plan is working. Is there a limit to how far from your residence is still “local”? Perception. "

I don’t shop local...not for spite or anything I’m just part of the new world...but what I described was Brandon 30 years ago. Local business is always superior but we just don’t live in that world anymore, a local guy couldn’t compete on price if he wanted too... It will come into focus in 10 years when Best Buy and other retailers close their brick and mortar stores or just go all in on the furniture store model where they are just large show rooms shipping direct to your home after collecting your cash and info.  
 
Find a former employee of acklands grainger in Brandon, they’ll explain how it will look when it comes.

Big chains do employ local people who in turn support the local economy. Box stores can also renovate on a whim with huge budgets, take losses from shoplifters, bad exchanges, etc. They can order anything you want (if you find a salesperson).  
 
The local shop puts there all into their small enterprise because they enjoy interacting and servicing their loyal clients. They work long hours.  
 
What huge stores cannot do is contribute uniquely to a community. Independent mom and/or pop stores make a City interesting and more often than not provide unique items. We have seen this in Brandon.  
 
If people don't support small local retailers, small towns and Cities suffer from (many times downtown) vacancies, which further erodes the community as a whole. Big box stores have and always will chip away at local enterprise.  
 
Interacting with shopkeepers vs. buying at huge U.S./Canadian profiteering businesses keeps the small and colourful shops that provide service and personalized service alive. Cities and towns eventually lose any character. Then you have streets of boarded up stores where nobody wants to even venture. That may turn to social problems and derelict buildings. Sound familiar?  
 
If small locally owned shops disappear, so does the personality and substance of a well marketed City or small town.  
 
The public needs and seems to want everything at their fingertips between online shopping and big box stores. We are all guilty of that.  
 
Has anyone been fortunate enough to visit small European towns/villages? So many locals continue to shop independant shops and many successful small towns maintain a colourful and diverse shopping district. Streets are bustling with people shopping local. Here, downtown is dead and boarded up and everyone is at Walmart and Superstore.  
 
I give true credit to the Sneath family for starting to revive a few places downtown. I don't live downtown but will go there for a coffee vs. a big TH chain. I will buy my bread at Kuipers and Chez Angela. I prefer to frequent local restaurants before the chains. I will support WCG over MTS (equity plus I watch local City council meetings), and I will buy my gas at Heritage Co-op. I'd rather look for unique shoes/boots at Union Shoe store with service than deal with a store where you cannot find a person. Toymasters is another example. Great service and amazing inventory with items you will never find at a big box store. How can they compete with Walmart? Well, they do because people shop local and enjoy the service and unique items. There are so many examples of why I like to start with a local shop.  
 
People can crunch numbers all they want of how big retailers benefit the economy. There is no doubt they do indeed contribute. The bottom line is at what cost? Independent retailers add so much to the vitality and landscape of where you live and if they go away, so does the diversity of your town or City.  
 
I have operated independent retail and service stores over the years in Brandon.