Discussions

There are a lot more people living in the country, than farmers. I live in the country. Only I pay road tax on the fuel it takes me to get to town.

Are you saying "equally" or "fairly"? Because they are not the same. Should each person pay the exact same amount of taxes? Lets say, every employed person should pay $1,200 in taxes every month....that's equal....but is it fair? To me, that would be fair.  
 
Edited by PrimeConvoy, 2019-04-01 14:50:14

I believe that I've saved 24t of carbon as much as I'll get reimbursed for it! lol

While I agree that would be wonderful in theory, I live and converse in reality and not utopia.  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2019-04-01 17:38:34

paying $1.20 is not new. It's a common range gas price for the past number of years here in Manitoba. Would I prefer paying the $0.99 or less, heck yes. Oil companies raise the price a lot more than the carbon tax did and for BS reasons. If they happen to have a reason at all. Just wait for a long weekend, the carbon tax amount would look like nothing. Sadly this winter we were spoiled with the low price.  
 
18 month gas price chart  
http://www.ManitobaGasPrices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx?city1=Manitoba&city2=&city3=&crude=n&tme=18&units=ca

If you really want something to complain about go to the UK. Current average price per litre is $2.133 for standard blend. Diesel slightly higher.

I think your definition of reality would be different than mine.

I would be more than happy to be educated.

Done for the day so I thought I would answer your question. We have applied to not have to pay the carbon tax on bulk farm fuels. Now the question is will we get the break or will the money go elsewhere, the reason I mention this is we buy fuel for a car that doesn’t use purple fuel from a cardlock, we buy purple gas from a cardlock, as well as sometimes buy bulk purple gas. There are times when we fill the car and a truck with fuel on the same day from the cardlock. When one checks the bill that is sent out it should show a difference of the provincial tax on the day that both were filled, and we have noticed that at times the difference is only 4 cents, so does that mean we were overcharged for the purple fuel, same goes for filling the bulk fuel compared to filling at the cardlock on the same day. Quite often the bulk fuel is higher than the cardlock, we do spend time checking, but there’s not much you can do about it.  
My wife drives to town nearly everyday to work for Canadian wages and she will be getting no exemption from the carbon tax, so she’s in the same boat as you, guess we made a mistake living in the country.  
As for the equality problem, last fall I did something completely out of character for me, I ran for Councilor, and got elected, and it has been very educational. As a Councilor in rural southwest Manitoba, it didn’t take long to confirm my existing idea that equality and fairness don’t exist. We pay taxes just like everyone else, but if we look at policing, there is a big difference in rural response times and those in the city, same can be said about medical services, then there’s the review that is going on related to education services in rural areas, what the future holds is anyone’s guess, but I’m not optimistic, that’s why there was the reference to the continuing death of the heartland. The future will bring continued consolidation and amalgamation and that’s not really a good thing, but it is a reality.  
People don’t like talking economics, but it’s something that has to be looked at, and that is going to result in some really difficult decisions being made, unless people are willing to give their very last dollar to government, and for many people that is already happening.

As a farmer you are exempt from the carbon tax on fuel as well as being exempt from provincial tax on fuel delivered to your yard.

Become a farmer, and then you can take advantage of not paying carbon tax or provincial tax, but you will have to live with a whole bunch of realities that most people overlook when talking about farming. I will list just a couple to dwell apon, they are, no guarantees, weather, world markets and political decisions, like the one that has chased away a market that buys 40% of our canola.  
I’m sort of accepting the idea that not only the provincial, but federal government as well, are more in touch with the complete financial picture of the average farm situation than the ordinary person.

From my point of view, I fully agree with the implementation of the carbon tax. Actually, it should have been done way earlier (like years earlier), considering carbon emissions on the North American continent have been going up in the last few years. I believe one of the causes is most likely too many people are driving SUVs and trucks instead of smaller, more fuel efficient cars. It comes down to the point that major car makers are discontinuing the production of smaller and midsize cars all together!  
Also, what makes me wonder quite a bit is that farmers disagree with the tax, even though they seem to be exempt. Being especially dependent on the climate to grow their crops at a good yield, they should be the first pushing for less polluting technologies and ways to decrease carbon emissions. A little bit of research (newspaper articles or the Internet) would open up a world of eco-friendly options already available. Unfortunately, there is also the issue of the government having its ‘head stuck in the sand’ and provide little to no support for people and business who want to go greener. Talk about the recent discussions about creating federal government rebates for EVs which cost less than $45000, canceling out EVs that could totally replace peoples ICE cars in their garages. Or Ontario’s misguided choice’ of the total cancellation of the rebate program for EVs, therefore trying to save money at the cost of the environment. Well done Mr. Ford (sarcasm included).  
Don’t just live in a ‘me world’ worrying only how much the next fuel up will cost and how the tax will hit your budget overall. Rather consider what all this burned gas, diesel, coal and NG will do to our climate and the repercussions it will have for the future of everyone’s children. Educate yourself and maybe look into possible options to decrease your carbon footprint. If we all do our small part, future generations might still enjoy this Earth as much as we do.  
The climate is already changing and not in a good way. How far we let that trend go forth will be all up us and how we treat our environment. The time of fighting pollution with dilution has past long ago.

Does the USA have a Carbon Tax?

I do see some positives in what you are saying. One is left to assume you have adopted a zero carbon footprint lifestyle.

Ocean floor? Consider most of that oil was most likely created by layers of dead algae and carcasses of dead ocean creatures millions of years ago (see source: http://www.manitoba.ca/iem/min-ed/teensrock/faq/files/mb_strat_column.pdf). If that is what you want to go back to, find higher ground and bring the big guns out to defend yourself from huge mosquitos, dragonflies, etc.

as nature has it's ways to deal with carbon in the atmosphere, i.e. the rain forest is a huge sponge for carbon. We just spew out too much of it for too many years.  
 
This is a response to Jusasoul "I do see some positives in what you are saying. One is left to assume you have adopted a zero carbon footprint lifestyle."  
 
Edited by DadOf2, 2019-04-05 12:16:06

Maybe shouldn’t bring this up but we live in a carbon based world, no one can live a life with a zero carbon footprint.

I just looked up the Chev. Bolt EV. Oh yeah they start at $45,000 to $50,000 for a mini electric car. A little gas Spark is only $17,000. That is a lot of fuel I could by with the change vs electric. If I am being forced to reduce my carbon footprint I should be allowed to operate electric vehicle options. Such as an electric golf cart. Funny how I can run a mobility scooter in town, same distance and speed as a golf cart yet I cannot drive a cart in town. I have no choice but to pay higher groceries because we cannot source our products locally. And even if we get them local we still pay high due to fuel taxes added. No matter what we the consumers will always lose. This is just a plain tax grab, nothing more.

Here in BC, since the carbon tax was brought in years ahead of the rest of the country, emissions have gone UP.  
 
This was all over our news outlets last week, so I don't have a specific link to explain their findings, but it seems to be well known that the carbon tax is nothing but a tax grab.  
 
Areas in and around Metro Vancouver are up to $1.69/L for regular right now (I saw one post of $1.90/L for premium). Now you do have to keep in mind that in addition to the carbon tax, there are also "transit" taxes in that amount - I live in Langley where we do not have Skytrain, so we are not subject to the transit tax. Prices out in my area are routinely 25 cents lower than Vancouver. Either way, the point is, even though we already had a carbon tax in that amount - the BC government still saw fit to raise it by another 2 cents on April 1st. It has done absolutely nothing to get cars off the road, in fact the quantity of vehicles bought and sold here continues to rise.  
 
Transit is not an option for me where I live and work, and there are thousands of small business owner and contractors that have no option - they have to drive. And those contractors do not get any relief in the form of a rebate either.  
 
The carbon tax as written is nothing more than a tax grab. It does nothing to stop emissions, it just defers costs along the chain to the end user - those who cannot afford it - we still need to buy groceries, we still need to get to work. The rich who can afford to buy electric vehicles or do renovations will benefit and those of us not in a position to buy more fuel efficient vehicles or use transit will just be hurt.  
 
The other way the carbon tax just hurts the little guy (and I use this area as an example again) - renters do not get any sort of incentives to reduce our heating bills, energy usage or the like. I live in a mid '80's townhouse. Single pain windows, 2x4 exterior construction. Baseboard heat (no furnace). I cannot do anything in my power to reduce my heat other than freeze when it does get cold (thank god it usually only gets to -5 at the worst). My rental is horribly in-efficient. All I can do it put on a sweater, draw heavy curtains to try and help with the chill, but there are no incentives given to us to promote savings. Now the landlords are given big tax breaks if they do the fixes, but then you hear of "renovictions" where they do minor fixes and up the rent if you want to stay.  
 
As I said, the carbon tax as written is broken. I am sure there are ways to make it work, but as it is now it is a make work/feelgood project for the 1%.

In what scenario would greenhouse gas contribute to bringing back the giant insects of the past. That would require higher concentration of oxygen in the athmosphere or higher air pressure. We will and are making positive changes now. in 10 years new combustion engines in personal vehicles will likely be phased out by the market. Electric will be a huge proportion of the new auto market. This trend is starting now and will grow exponentially. Peak oil is projected to hit in 10 to 20 years. The market itself will phase in new technologies.  
 
The carbon tax is not necessary especially at the pump. Most people will not be affected. It will be an inflation on the cost of living and that is it. Day to day, people don't get reminded of what kind of tax is in on gas bill. All they see is the end price. At the end of the day the behavior change is not gonna come from the current carbon tax... it is hidden. The idea alone is ridiculous. In order to drive the cost of driving a combustion vehicle so high that people will make different decisions, you will drive them to poverty. This will make switching even harder because of higher cost for new tech + they will not be able to make healthy lifestyle choices.

More government agencies need to do their part. the ability to drive electric golf carts in town is one option.  
 
Another is Insurance. The other day I looked up the cost of insuring a model 3 Tesla. The increase in insurance from my current car to the Tesla would cancel any savings on gas.  
 
Some of the governments incentives for electric vehicles are for appearance only. for example the credit for buying an new EV are so low, very few models actually qualify and for the 2 that do, It's only the base model.

I replied to Ten's argument turning Canada into the tropics and all would be just fine and dandy. Of cause he might have exaggerated and I just replied in kind referring to large insects of the Dino age he would have to deal with. Otherwise, the flooding of the prairies due to melting of the pole caps & permafrost might become quite a reality (depending what computer model you use).

This EV is nothing like a Spark. Maybe take a closer look at it. This hatchback has more room in all directions than a Spark, it is faster in acceleration and will cost you less than $10 to refill the 'tank' getting a range of up to 400 km or even more. You won't have to deal with oil changes, gas price increases and your break pads will most likely last for the life time of the car. You will have less repair costs due to less moving parts and can drive more relaxed due to less noise.  
Granted the Bolt is expensive (and has some flaws I can't overlook) and is also very closely priced to a Base Tesla Model 3 and other EVs. Given a choice I would take the Tesla, but I would actually wait for the Kia ENiro.  
Rum made a good point, atm the incentive for first time buyers of EV is ridiculous. In order to get the meager $5000 you are left with cars which can barely replace the ICE car in your garage. Somebody 'up there' figured exactly how to make something look good that is actually useless.  
One point I also would like to make, the Carbon tax could be used to finance rebates for EVs, Solar panels etc. I'm not sure, if that is the plan of the Feds.

How much carbon tax did we taxpayers pay in 2018?  
Answer: None  
And yet we are getting a carbon tax refund on our 2018 taxes.  
Nothing but a blatant attempt to bribe us to vote for them in October with our own money!

Our fearless leaders took over 300 people to the Paris Climate Change Conference a couple of years ago.  
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-price-of-paris-canada-sends-more-than-300-delegates-to-climate-talks-1.2686239  
 
And that's twice as many people as the US sent. And the US has a population about 10 times our size.  
Talk about being a bunch of hypocrites!

Ford Focus. All EV is $42 grand with taxes. Gas with upgrades taxes in $21 grand. Still half the price of the vehicle. Battery warranties seem to hover around the 8 year or 100,000km mark. So if I use that math on the kms put on my truck I would have had to replace the batteries 3 times in the last 8 years. I have almost 300 thousand on my truck. I have put 2 sets of brakes, changed plugs, and general oil changes. Less than $3500 in oil changes and would be even less for a car.  
 
So I would like to know buying a car for over 40 thousand, plus 3 pairs of batteries and misc. maintenance how much would I be saving over buying price and operations with a gas car of equal size. How much would batteries be? 5 grand? That is a lot of maintenance on an electric vehicle.

Check those climate models and their accuracy based on their history.  
 
In the past every model over-estimated the warming trend. The most accurate models were those that predicted the lowest increase. I'm assuming this trend will continue to be true into the future.  
 
I am also one of those that dosn't think global warming is actually bad overall. I'm more concerned with sustainability, pollution, chemical usage effects on the environment, addiction to high meat consumption ect. To me Carbon is the one I'm the least worried about. I want to have a green footprint for myself, but my desire to do so has nothing to do with Climate Change.  
 
The way the globe is set up you do not need to worry about an inland seaway through North America. The Warming would change Ocean currents to trigger an Ice age before that happened. The higher concentration of carbon would likely help dissipate the effects of that.  
 
Climate Change is a politicized issue that is by far not as scary in reality. There are other more worrying trends that are more problematic. But hopefully the climate obsession will tackle some of those other issues as a side effect. That is my hope.

I find it interesting that so may folks talk up the EV (while admitting there is still room for improvement). There were over 2 million brand new vehicles sold in Canada last year. There were less than 2500 Bolt EV's sold in Canada last year. They were readily available but languished in sales.  
 
Many will say that sales would increase if the subsides increased. In other words, there are a lot of people saying no one can afford to not act on climate change while simultaneously saying they would act on climate change if it was more affordable.. Hypocrisy?

If I was a buyer right now Tesla would be my pick. There is no-one that can beat them. Your comment on battery replacement is based on the assumption that they would fail when the warranty runs out. I think an 8 year warranty is actually a good indicator of confidence they have on their batteries. To me this means on average they will be good for at least 10 yrs. By then cost should have gone down, battery tech will have increased (maybe solid state batteries). My guess the battery replacement would be a much better battery then you can get today.  
 
You are right, the cost for the vehicle kinda offsets any advantage in savings. Trucks are not there yet, but a see some pretty cool models to be released in a year or two. Tesla will come out with a truck (hopefully it dosn't look like the the picture that is circulating) Rivian, Ford F-150. I'm not sure how they will be for pulling, and can see some issues there. I'm sure they will be fine if you only pull under 2 hrs from home, but anything more than that may be a problem. (of coarse that's speculation). The problem becomes the turnover time. Lets say your taking the camper to the lake, but don't have enough charge to get home. You may be suck with a low amp charge that will take some time to do. I think we have the tech that makes normal cars very competitive in convenience, but we might lack the tech right now for trucks to get the same edge. (Of course if you hardly ever pull, like most truck owners, then its not a real problem.)

Rum, I mentioned that repercussions of climate change is depending on what computer model you look at. My guess is as good as yours and we both are no climatologists by profession. These guys are not even on the same page in that regard. All I'm thinking is that those changes might not be all good for us and depending on how fast they kick in, we might have a hard time adjusting. The slower the change, the easier it would be for us to create some sort of tech to counter or deal with it, I can imagine.  
You make also an important point. Our charging sytem is way not up to par what our Southern neighbor has. Owning an EV right now would be quite restrictive getting around on a long haul. But that will change over time as well. Petro Canada and Tesla will build charging stations along the highway from East to West and maybe we get some piece of that "Electrify America" cake paid by VW as well (but I doubt that). I'm sure other companies will jump on that bandwagon (i.e Shell), because there is money to be made.  
Fishin Guy, the car producers give a warranty of 7-8 years for their battery pack because they are pretty sure they will hold up this long and even longer (with a small amount of decline in range). Look up TeslaBjoern on YouTube, he drove his Tesla Model X (I'm not 100% sure, it might have been his Model S) for over 200000 km with the first battery pack and it's still running well. He lives in Norway, so climate is quite comparable to ours and Tesla made sure their battery management system (BMS) keeps the pack at a temperature to prevent it from loosing efficiency, unlike the Leaf's battery. The Bolt has a similar BMS as the Tesla.  
In regards of cost, the US has a $7500 tax rebate for EV buyers phasing down/out by quantity of units sold per company. Translate that rebate into Can$ and we should at least count on $10k and not measly $5k. Also the range of applicable EVs should be decided by battery size and not by base price (40kWh and up should be supported). That way EVs would be i:ncluded which can totally replace ICE cars and therefore really make a difference. I wouldn't even consider an E Golf or 48KWh Leaf or Hyundai's IONIQ which cost below $45k.  
Over time this rebate can be phased out as well, as batteries become cheaper and EV cost will be nearly on par with ICE vehicles.  
 
Edited by DadOf2, 2019-04-05 16:52:56