Discussions

Can someone list Rosser's actions to help us decide properly if his name is worth the trouble in removing from our history? Yeah, he was a Confederate... What else did he do? Is there any documentations, letters, biography, books newspaper articles stating he was a racist or supported slavery. Just being a former Confederate officer doesn't provide me enough evidence to make my final decision. I've known several old German soldiers, but that doesn't make them a bunch of Nazis. Their country went to war, every able man was expected to serve and they did their part while trying not to get killed. They fought... they lost... they started a new life in Canada. Should I, or even you, call them horrible people for being included in what is deemed a dark chapter in humanity? A pilot, a gunner, a front line soldier and a clerk are to be called monsters and shouldn't be treated the same as you and I? Who are we to do this to them or to Rosser if we only know they were part of something terrible but can't show what or how much they were involved in such atrocities? So eBrandon, prove to me in black and white that Rosser was a despicable human being. Not just a dick who worked for the railway and made ruthless land deals while naming roadways after himself, but as the racist inhuman with written history stating of what he said or has done. I would like to think that the people of Brandon wouldn't jump to conclusions just because this summer, the "pop culture" is trending a theme to eradicate anything that signifies discrimination without actual facts. ...So educate me (and anyone else that's curious to discover the truth) the life history of Thomas Lafayette Rosser. Take us out of our ignorance and help us understand why his name should be removed from our street and city history, other than to partake in today's fashion of accusing and condemning as a social right without proper justification or ramifications. Anything else said or done... would make me consider that those whom amass to accuse without provocation as nothing more than a social lynch mob.  
 
Just my opinion, please educate me, I could be wrong.

what I have read about him, he was in US Military School, West Point till a couple weeks before graduation. He then left because he supported Texas Secession. Where he then joined the Confederate Army. Got injured a few times, shot down a Union observation balloon, made the fastest withdrawl in the war.  
 
I'm with you, don't see a good reason for renaming Rosser Avenue.  
 
What we are now all encountering is looking at past history with fresh eyes. Things that were once deemed okay, are now frowned upon. Some of the historical people that were once celebrated are now looked at in a different light. And that's not a bad thing. We have to learn from our past and avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

I get the comparison you're trying to make, but it isn't an accurate one.  
 
Rosser was a general in the Confederate Army, not just a infantrymen like the men you knew. Surely he didn't get to that position without knowing what he was fighting for.  
 
No one is trying to erase history. Thomas Rosser will be forever linked to the establishment of the city of Brandon. What some people are arguing is that is actions prior to his arrival in Manitoba make him not worth of the honour bestowed upon him.  
 
The Germans definitely won't forget their history, but they certainly don't celebrate it either.  
 
Edited by Trevor, 2020-06-20 09:31:36

How's this for a solution. We will just keep the name Rosser, but in honor of somebody else. For instance, Leonor Rosser is an origami artist who apparently is very well known to viewers of PBS:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonor_Rosser

Where is the proof? Again, many are jumping to conclusions. All what history states is that he was at West Point before the American Civil War being trained leadership as an officer. Therefore, it's only logical that when he returned to defend his home that he would immediately be placed in rank as a general because of his education. Yeah, he fought for the other side (the bad guys), but there's absolutely nothing, yet, with his background that indicates he lived or favored a lifestyle supported by slavery. If some displayed his history that he or his family had slaves... That would be enough evidence to sway me to have his name removed from our street. If his words were recorded saying he's fighting the North in order to defend his rights to have slaves... That would would be enough for me, as well. But, it isn't here. How can the citizens of Brandon be so righteous in condemning someone's name without actual evidence? Who's the bigger monster in all of this? ...The accused or his accusers? I for one, will not become part of the many that quickly hop on the bandwagon simply because it's easy to join a popular trend provided by an ill-informed social media. It may be well wished to do some good, but it's dangerously stupid and could result in harm. We need to be self-restrained and properly gather solid facts before threatening to act out or become the problem of spreading misinformation. Or we become no better than those people spreading unjustified Nazi rumors about my parents friends, simply to cause gossip. Stop making serious accusations based on assumptions.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong

Thomas Lafayette Rosser was a Major General in the Confederate Army. Either he knew what the war was about which makes him complicit, or he didn't know what the war was about which makes him stupid. Either way it should disqualify him with the honour.  
 
That's what it comes down to. Having a street named after you is an honour, and he simply does not deserve said honour. He'll always be part of the Brandon, MB entry in the encyclopedia and in history books, there is no good reason to have a reminder of him on a major Brandon street.  
 
Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-20 15:50:38

https://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/leave-his-family-or-return-to-slavery-in-19th-century-campbell-county-her-great-great/article_02b9e15c-8de3-58e4-af22-8fe1d6f7b984.html  
 
According to this he owned 15.

Although, I cannot get into this site... I'll take your word for it at this time. Therefore I've have been swayed over to the side in removing Rosser from our city street. This is all that I needed. Thank you.  
 
Edited by snowman5, 2020-06-20 18:03:16

Yeah. Remove it. While the confederate army part is not great I could get over it if he was not a slave owner. Slave owner I really don’t care how much it costs. Take it down.

It’s more or less a family history type write up from the great grand daughter of a slave, who was owned by Thomas Rosser.

Again, remove all personal references from any naming, if we so choose, because there are skeletons everywhere. It's all or nothing folks.  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-20 19:35:12

Never in a million years would I condone these alleged actions that this man has taken.  
 
That being said, good god it would be so much easier to just find someone else named Rosser who is decidedly less bad and choose to honour them with the street name instead. Because as Justasoul has said, it is all or nothing, because we will then have to decide whether or not we should rename Victoria ave, or Cornwallis Municipality, etc etc etc etc etc etc.  
 
Compared to all the other issues happening on the planet this is so incredibly unimportant.

If we are so focused on erasing what happened over 100 years ago. Here is a 2018 document showing what is currently still happening in our world. I hope that people who want change also stay away from all the products listed as chances are you are probably wearing clothing right now that was produced by a child or some sort of slave labour.  
https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/ILAB/ListofGoods.pdf

We shouldn’t be trying to rewrite the parts of our history that we don’t like. Many of these people played key parts in creating the world as we know it today . They lived in different times with different attitudes. We need to remember and learn from our history so that we can learn from those wrongs and create a better future for everyone, but we can start with our own excessive consumption habits. Most of us live in relative opulence these days and we forget that when it doesn’t suit us. Most of us live well off of the hard work and poor conditions endured by others TODAY yet we do little about it.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-21 09:41:03

a persons background in the 1880's isn't like it is in 2020. Checking what Rosser did during the Civil War in 1881 is essentially taking his word for it. There were no online references for what the leadership did back then, can't call his previous employers. Plus Rosser named the avenue himself not residents themselves.  
 
We should learn from past history and not repeat the fails. On the other hand should we continue celebrating past fails with statues, road names, place names? While renaming roads and towns are more difficult, we should know the history behind the names. And we shouldn't be over reacting over every single thing that has some sort of negative background.

You are correct that Rosser did atrocious things by Canadian standards today. I don't think anyone is trying to debate that. It must be added that these things were legal at the time. In fact, just 10 years prior to the civil war, States were admitted into the Constitution in pairs. It was deemed there had to be a balance between Free States and Slave States. I am not saying it was right, but it was observed legislation. In fact, I will say it was very wrong. That doesn't change the fact that it was the law of the land.  
 
So, Rosser fought for his State in the 1860's, partially to defend what was legal at the time.  
 
In 1870, Louis Riel practiced Capital Punishment. This was a legal practice at the time but is now illegal and considered atrocious.  
 
My point in saying all or nothing is that, if we get rid of references to Rosser, we need to get rid of references to Riel as well.  
 
This is not an emotional reaction, this is simply evaluating everything on a level playing field.  
 
As an aside, I would submit that all colors of men and women have both held slaves and been slaves at some point in history and that it is still a major part of the world today.

Many civilizations through history have slavery and persecution in their past, we don’t agree with it but unless the reminders are there it will be forgotten and will continue to reoccur. We are each aiding modern day slavery and persecution through our shopping habits and that is the ugly truth that needs to be addressed.

I said a few posts up, in the 1880's and early 20th century there was really no reliable way to research people. And many of the things they did in the day were the norm and legal. I'm sure there are many namesakes in Brandon's past with skeletons in the closet that today we frown upon.

I have heard of some cities placing plaques or other signage that describes the history of street names that have been named after "unsavoury" people in order to educate people about the names and where they come from.  
 
That being said, like I said in a previous post, this feels like far more trouble than it's worth considering all the other problems that we should be working on repairing. Not to mention I don't think anybody would have actually cared if it wasn't brought up in the first place, seems a little cynical if you ask me.

think that is the best idea for this. Essentially put an asterix beside his name. There are a lot worse people that we could have an avenue named after.  
 
That would be good for many of our streets and avenues in Brandon. Who was McTavish, Van Horne, Rosser, Stickney, Frobisher, Daly, etc..  
And before all of this happened, how many knew the history behind Rosser Avenue, where does the name come from?

This is a sensible idea. I also agree that there are currently more important problems to work through.

I think that City Council is fully capable of working through more than one problem at a time. "We have much bigger things to do" is always such a weak argument.

So Do you think that educating people about past history in the hope of creating a better future is a bad idea?  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-21 23:04:04

"Rosser" is named for Thomas Lafayette Rosser, a Confederate major - meaning he served in the Confederate Army.  
 
I'll spare a full history lesson, but the Confederate Army fought to defend the right for white Americans to own Blacks, and subjugate them to history's greatest crimes against humanity.  
 
It isn't "just a name" or "just a word." It's a monument to a monster. It is not a piece of our history that we should be proud of, and there is no educational or historical value in having a street named after a bigot. It does nobody harm if it is removed, it does not "erase" history if it is removed.

American's shameful history not Brandon or Canada's.  
Our history with Rosser is that he founded our city and brought in the railway, correct me if i am wrong in what Rosser did for our city.

I'm not going to come at you with a personal attack, though it is tempting.  
 
The history is Rosser's. It has nothing to do with WHERE he lived that history. By this logic, why not name a street after a Nazi officer? The atrocities of World War 2 were not perpetrated in Brandon. It's ridiculous.  
 
You (and TrevorB or whatever) are doing everything you can to distract from the reality that Thomas Rosser was an abhorrent bigot, and a slave owner. If you support those things, just come out and say it. There is no excuse to have his name on a street in this City.  
 
There are resources you can use - I know you know how to work the internet, because you post here 300 times per day - to find out the histories of Daly, Frobisher, McTavish, and any other name you want.  
 
The research on Rosser has been done, and he was the embodiment of evil, and he eagerly signed up to fight for his evil.  
 
Changing a street name so that our City is LESS represented by the American Confederacy is NOT "more trouble than it's worth" and I say that as someone whose address would be affected by this. It is embarrassing to fill out my address with the name of a slave owner.  
 
As I've previously said, worse efforts than Mayor Chrest's have been made to make Brandon an inclusive and welcoming place for all people, especially the Indigenous community, and I hope that effort continues and we can finally make a meaningful change to how we are choosing to represent ourselves as a community.  
 
Just because there are worse people to name a street after doesn't mean we should settle for a slave owner. Surely we can hold ourselves to a higher standard than "not the absolute worst."  
 
Being ignorant to history is not an excuse.

"I'm not going to come at you with a personal attack, though it is tempting. " (then proceeds to come at them with passive aggressive personal attacks) lmao.  
 
Let's just call it 1st Avenue and leave it at that then.

Why don't we make a concerted effort to find a person with the name Rosser that stands for an accomplishment that we can get behind and make a proclamation that we are rededicating Rosser ave. to that person at the same time we can admonish the original Rosser for all his evils and proclaim him to no longer a person the good people of Brandon honour in any way. Surely the simplest answer to the problem

I can't wait till this Covid is over and people go back to work and focus on more meaningful issues to tackle. Some have too much time on their hands. Heck I moved here 20 years ago and never knew what anyone of these street names meant. Still don't. Do I care, not at all. If we are worried about some dead guy that has been gone for how long now???? We have some big issues other than this. Heck we better have major movies pulled and labeled. Just saw Forrest Gump. Bubba's mom doesn't have to work in a kitchen anymore. A white lady was serving her now. Wait.....what.....is that allowed. BAN THE MOVIE!! Call Google Maps.....we need to change street names!! Call the post office, call the mayor, call the prime minister.  
 
Curious, out of all these years of the name Rosser Ave, throwing it out there, people like GetRec'd, have you been offended this whole time you have lived in Brandon, or just since this thread was started? Why have we not heard about all this many years ago?