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(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

****
6/22/2020 at 12:48 PM

Fishin Guy said "I can't wait till this Covid is over and people go back to work and focus on more meaningful issues to tackle. Some have too much time on their hands. Heck I moved here 20 years ago and never knew what anyone of these street names meant. Still don't. Do I care, not at all. If we are worried about some dead guy that has been gone for how long now???? We have some big issues other than this. Heck we better have major movies pulled and labeled. Just saw Forrest Gump. Bubba's mom doesn't have to work in a kitchen anymore. A white lady was serving her now. Wait.....what.....is that allowed. BAN THE MOVIE!! Call Google Maps.....we need to change street names!! Call the post office, call the mayor, call the prime minister.

Curious, out of all these years of the name Rosser Ave, throwing it out there, people like GetRec'd, have you been offended this whole time you have lived in Brandon, or just since this thread was started? Why have we not heard about all this many years ago? "
So because we were not completely aware of his history in the past, that disqualifies us from re-evaluating his suitability now? Now, with more light being shone on these issues throughout North America, seems like the exact time to re-evaluate the situation.

Fine , we get it. You're not bothered enough that the namesake of Rosser Ave owned slaves, fought as an officer for the Confederacy, and was otherwise fairly unethical and a hothead. Sure, you don't care enough to change the name. The part I don't understand is why you are actively arguing against it, basically defending a fairly horrible person. What will significantly change in your life if the name of Rosser Ave is changed? I just don't understand why anyone would pick this hill as one to die on.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
6/22/2020 at 1:03 PM

This is from a story about Dundas Street in Toronto, but the thoughts fit.

https://nationalpost.com/news/petition-to-rename-dundas-street-garners-attention-amid-renewed-focus-on-monuments

“People take for granted that street names don’t matter, but they do because they speak about our values,” said Melanie Newton, a history professor at the University of Toronto. “They inscribe historical realities of power and privilege into the landscape that we move through every day.”

She said such statues, schools, buildings and streets send a message not only to those who have been put on the margins, but to those who do the marginalizing.

“The argument that these monuments are there to remind us of inequality is nonsense,” she said. “These monuments … are there to remind people that whatever change happens, the kind of power and privilege that these people represent is still the foundation of the state and its structures and of the order of society.

“They are there to reassure those with power that even as society changes, they do not have to worry that their power will really be threatened.”

“I would question why people feel that they are so bad at their jobs that they need street names in order to educate people,” she said. “That is what we are paid for.”
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Thomas Lafayette Rosser
6/22/2020 at 1:24 PM

Trevor said "https://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/leave-his-family-or-return-to-slavery-in-19th-century-campbell-county-her-great-great/article_02b9e15c-8de3-58e4-af22-8fe1d6f7b984.html

According to this he owned 15. "
In the interest of accuracy IMO important to verify that the Thomas Rosser mentioned in this link is the same Thomas Rosser we’re talking about here.

From resources noted in the links at the end of this post I can attribute this timeline below to Thomas Lafayette Rosser. This is an incomplete timeline and I hope others can help to fill it in and build on any of the points within by reading more themselves.

1836
born

1849
family relocated to Texas. Father had owned a plantation and 20-30 slaves (1)

1856
Joined United States Military Academy (1)

1861
Left academy 2 weeks before graduation, enlisted in Confederate States Army. Over time there, became Major General. (1)

Being another country’s history, a lot of folks probably aren’t up to speed on just what that entailed (I wasn’t but this has gotten me to start doing my homework). A good starting point at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Army

There’s quite a detailed discussion within on the topic of motivations of Confederate soldiers, including that “white supremacy and the right of property in slaves were at the core of the ideology for which Confederate soldiers fought.” (4)

You could get into beliefs held by individuals but you would have quite the case to make if you’re wanting to say that a Major General didn’t know that was at the core of what was being fought for. Would however be interested if there is more to be learned on Rosser in this regard.

1865
War ended.

1869
Headed West after various unsuccessful jobs and business ventures (2)

1870
Joined Northern Pacific Railroad (2)

1881
This is where local history starts to come in via position taken with Canadian Pacific Railroad. Over that time said that he:
“shaped Canadian settlement patterns and created towns, and facilitated the expansion of the Canadian Pacific Railroad. Even though he had a financial interest, he pushed the rails westward and helped Canada grow and prosper” (2)

1882.
Appears to be when legal problems hit, arrested in Winnipeg (3)

1885
Had Moved back to Virginia by this time (1)

1885-ish (age 49):
“He envisaged a prosperous, proud, unrepentant South in which industry thrived and Whites accepted political but not social equality with blacks.” (1)

Mentioned somewhere in this timeframe that he had given an interview that implied he was reconstructed, that he would not reinstitute slavery even if he had the power. (1)

1890
Quote from Thomas Lafayette Rosser:
“The southern country so long cursed by the presence of (blacks, but he used a word other than blacks that clearly referred to that segment of the population of the South) is now attracting the attention of the aspiring young men of the over-populated sections of the North, and soon the tide of immigration will pour in..... and thus lighten our burdens, aid in the construction of all the railroads that we require......” (1)

Thoughts
No secret in my posts that I feel being a Confederate Major General is enough that I don’t feel right in having a street self-named in his honour. Others might look for more information on motivations behind joining the Confederate Army and fighting in the war. Others might look at his time after the war and assess any changes/adaptations to the post-war reality and factor that into how they ultimately see this. There are definitely some blanks in that department and so maybe there’s more to learn, but this line toward the end of link #1 below in summing up his life would seem to say that anyone wanting to make the case that this was a reformed, modern post-war man of his time will be facing an uphill battle:

“He retained a value system tied largely to his notion of honor and based almost entirely on the old agrarian slave structure. Strangely for Rosser time and exposure did not weaken these values, nor did he ever fully reconcile them with his own adaptation to the new order.” (1)

If anyone has anything to add to building this understanding of who Rosser was that would be helpful, but all of the circle talking, the misdirection, the trying to justify slavery or racism based on the period, the shallow “snowflake” and “down with political correctness” stuff where a poster doesn’t seem to even be interested in discussing doesn’t really add anything that’s worth reading over the course of a mature, constructive discussion. Let's come up with our best-possible understanding of who Rosser was, assess if this is someone that should've been able to name a major street after himself in the city and how we feel about that honour standing. If there is enough support for the idea that it wasn't let's see realistic suggestions on how to reconcile with that and if those suggestions come with a cost let's at least see a realistic idea of potential costs to consider against those suggestions.

(1) https://www.jstor.org/stable/4249276?read-now=1&seq=10#metadata_info_tab_contents

(2) https://www.google.ca/amp/s/monroemichigan.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/two-cavalry-commanders-george-armstrong-custer-and-thomas-lafayette-rosser-sr/amp/

(3) https://books.google.ca/books?id=OqwxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA351&.....

(4) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Army
SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

renaming
6/22/2020 at 2:03 PM

PEOPLE: History is history and the way we move on is to learn from our history and do not repeat what was not in the best interest of society and build on what was good for our society.
Some countries have tried changing history in the past and that didn't turn our very well, namely Nazi Germany.
If we destroy everything that is linked to our history then the next generation will have no knowledge of our foundations (good or bad).
This Confederate Officer has a street named after him must of meant AT THE TIME he did something that was right for Brandon. There are all kinds of statues, schools, streets and towns named after someone and does that mean that they were saints all their lives?
GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

...
6/22/2020 at 2:11 PM

Fishin Guy said "I can't wait till this Covid is over and people go back to work and focus on more meaningful issues to tackle. Some have too much time on their hands. Heck I moved here 20 years ago and never knew what anyone of these street names meant. Still don't. Do I care, not at all. If we are worried about some dead guy that has been gone for how long now???? We have some big issues other than this. Heck we better have major movies pulled and labeled. Just saw Forrest Gump. Bubba's mom doesn't have to work in a kitchen anymore. A white lady was serving her now. Wait.....what.....is that allowed. BAN THE MOVIE!! Call Google Maps.....we need to change street names!! Call the post office, call the mayor, call the prime minister.

Curious, out of all these years of the name Rosser Ave, throwing it out there, people like GetRec'd, have you been offended this whole time you have lived in Brandon, or just since this thread was started? Why have we not heard about all this many years ago? "
It has been offensive to me as long as I've known Rosser's history. As I'm sure it is to anyone who is aware of the history. Just a simple thing called "learning."

As the times change, so can our understanding of the events of the past. If these are things that you don't care about, then I'm curious why you (among others) seem so invested in preserving a street named after a slave-owner.

By keeping that name, the City of Brandon is sponsoring the history. Allowing it to represent our community. I do not want that to be a part of our identity.

And because I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, I can also imagine the City making a change to a street name and working on other community issues, at the same time, though you seem to contradict yourself when deciding how big of a deal a street name.

"Do I care, not at all. If we are worried about some dead guy that has been gone for how long now???? We have some big issues other than this."

"Call Google Maps.....we need to change street names!! Call the post office, call the mayor, call the prime minister. "

I don't know what your point is about Forrest Gump, maybe someone else can address whatever that part of your rant is about.
GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

this is just wrong
6/22/2020 at 2:20 PM

SensibleFarmer said "PEOPLE: History is history and the way we move on is to learn from our history and do not repeat what was not in the best interest of society and build on what was good for our society.
Some countries have tried changing history in the past and that didn't turn our very well, namely Nazi Germany.
If we destroy everything that is linked to our history then the next generation will have no knowledge of our foundations (good or bad).
This Confederate Officer has a street named after him must of meant AT THE TIME he did something that was right for Brandon. There are all kinds of statues, schools, streets and towns named after someone and does that mean that they were saints all their lives? "
Almost everything in this post is wrong. Germany is perhaps a perfect example of how they have reckoned with their past WITHOUT any monuments to the monsters that still haunt their history.

Go to Germany. You will NOT find any monuments to the Nazi party. They are well aware of their history. They are also well aware of the dangers of building statues and monuments to the monsters.

Now take the United States. They have an uncountable number of monuments to the Confederacy. They also have a (I hesitate to use the word) burgeoning rise of neo-fascist, racist, confederate sympathizers.

If your only way to acknowledge the past/history is through statues and street names, then you mustn't have much of an interest in it. Changing the name of a street has no bearing on the history of our community, but it WILL have an affect on our ability to move forward.

The history of Brandon and the land around it far pre-dates a racist from the southern States. So, maybe, if we are all so invested in preserving our history, that is a good place to start.

Take the trash out. Bye bye Rosser.
SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

names
6/22/2020 at 2:30 PM

I am not saying that people should have things named after them but there are countless towns, streets, schools, buildings, parks named after people who meant something to their communities in the PAST HISTORY OF THAT COMMUNITY.
Just because you do not like someone doesn't mean that he or she didn't do something that was worthy to THAT COMMUNITY.
SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

SensibleFarmer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 129

Point
6/22/2020 at 2:38 PM

GETREC'D -you missed the point on the reference to Germany. Of course there are no monuments glorifying what the Nazi's did. It was the Nazi's who tried to change history by destroying everything that didn't suit them.
snowman5
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1022

snowman5
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1022

Can anyone verify Nitehawk?...
6/22/2020 at 3:39 PM

I can't get past the paywall. (Because I'm cheap) But if this is what the details reveal... That's a huge game changer. I need to shift into the middle again, until this is verified by Adam or a reputable news source to sway me again to either side of this Rosser debate again. Maybe the city needs to hire an professional historian before acting on behalf of a groups demands?

Just my opinion, I'm waiting for more results.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Different Rosser
6/22/2020 at 4:07 PM

NiteHawk said "actually read the article in the link that Trevor posted earlier?
Its an article about Bobbi Bowman's great great grandfather William Williamson who was a slave of Thomas Rosser.

I will just quote a few passages directly from her article :
"The story of this fearsome choice illustrates how enslaved black people used Virginia law to fight for their freedom and their families. And, it is a story of family love, kindness, friendship and even trust between blacks and whites living under the brutality of slavery."
"Grandpa deeded his land, his home, his animals, and all of his belongings to his white neighbor Thomas Rosser. Grandpa, still free, continued to work the farm that now belonged to Rosser"
"On June 8, 1871, Thomas Rosser and his wife, Martha, filed a stunning deed at the Campbell County courthouse. The Rossers returned to Grandma Mariah, and her children, everything that Grandpa deeded to them 17 years earlier.
The Rossers could have sold Grandpa. They could have sold his land, his house, and his possessions. Instead they allowed the family to stay together. They kept their possessions in safekeeping. The Rossers saved our family."

"Bobbi Bowman is a retired journalist who lives in McLean, Virginia. She wrote this piece with hopes of finding descendants of Thomas and Martha Rosser. “We want very much to meet them and thank them for giving us our family,” she said."

So a slaves descendant publicly writes that Rosser actually saved her family and would like to meet any of Rosser's ancestors to thank them personally .

Wonder why no one took the time to comment on the article. Maybe it just didn't fit your narrative.
Either way this paints a rather different picture of Rosser. That it was written by someone who was directly impacted by his actions speaks volumes more than the people who are triggered by a street sign. "
That might just clinch it, looks like a totally different Thomas Rosser in the link Trevor posted. “Our” Thomas Lafayette Rosser married an Elizabeth Barbara “Betty.” See link below, which is 100% about the Thomas Lafayette Rosser that named a street in Brandon after himself:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/monroemichigan.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/two-cavalry-commanders-george-armstrong-custer-and-thomas-lafayette-rosser-sr/amp/

for anyone looking to dig further, also keep in mind that there's at least a 3rd Tom Rosser, Thomas Lafeyette Rosser's son as per https://www.jstor.org/stable/4249276?read-now=1&seq=10#metadata_info_tab_contents

For anyone looking to go a step further on Thomas Lafayette Rosser, this book looks like it might provide more depth:
https://www.amazon.com/Custers-Gray-Rival-Confederate-Lafayette/dp/1945602082
GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

...
6/22/2020 at 4:11 PM

Trevor B said "links I posted, his Civil War time wasn't overly anything terrible. Other getting injured a bunch of times, a few wins, and the fastest retreat of the war. Don't really see anything that he should get his name removed for having to do with his time in the Civil War.

His time with the CP only lasted under a year. He did name streets and towns after himself and friends. Him and Stickney profited from land deals knowing where they were running the rail line through. Hence why Van Horne fired Rosser. Van Horne and Rosser nearly got into a fight in Winnipeg after the firing. But even those events aren't enough for me to say remove his name. "
How did I miss this horrible post.

He was in the CONFEDERATE Army. Do you understand the historical context of that? Would you be fine with a street names after a Nazi? Because, it is not unfair to call the two comparable.

So ridiculous.

To address the current gaslighting in this article, guess what? Whether or not a descendant of one the human beings that Rosser OWNED thinks he's fine and dandy or not does not make it true, or even all that relevant. While I'm sure they have plenty to say, it does not excuse treating humans as animals or worse because of the colour of their skin, which he did with obvious purpose.

Brandon is fine with having the name of a slave owners represent the City, or they aren't.

Perhaps if you are so sympathetic to the Confederacy, you consider moving to Kentucky where the movement seems to be alive and well.

Rossers legacy is hatred, and you can not support using his name without endorsing that legacy.
Alvin Hansen

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 236

Alvin Hansen
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 236

Skeletons in Closets Everywhere
6/22/2020 at 5:31 PM

Obviously slavery is wrong. Nobody can dispute that. Remember at the time, both the South AND North had slaves. Moreover, only the very wealthiest families could afford the luxury of slaves. Few know that there were slaves that fought for the confederate army. I don't believe that casting confederates and Nazis in the same pool is a fair comparison because the confederates were simply fighting for independence, not to take over the world.
If you dig deep enough and long ago enough, I'm sure that you could find unsavory details about any family. It all has to be taken in context of the time that history occurred. Does just being from the Southern states make one a racist? There are many Southerners who are proud to fly the rebel flag because they are proud Southerners, not because they sympathize with the KKK. There are many bands who have identified as playing Southern Rock, a genre which draws upon elements of country, gospel, blues, soul, R&B so these bands are not supporters of Klan values by any means.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Prior to
6/22/2020 at 5:37 PM

the abolition of slavery, there were many slave owners all through the US. You will likely find that many on the Union side of the Civil War that had family that owned slaves. That's because it was legal!! So his family having slaves when growing up isn't a surprise. When he went to West Point he was 20. He owned his farm after the abolition of slavery with no slaves.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Just because
6/22/2020 at 6:36 PM

someone fought for the Confederacy in the 1860's doesn't automatically make them to be white supremacists or racist. Right or wrong slavery was a way of life and legal at that point in American history. There needs to more proof of horrendous acts that he committed for me to say yes, definitely remove his name from signage in Brandon. Otherwise keep it, but make note of the history of the namesake.
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

# 1
6/23/2020 at 8:56 AM

GetRec'd said "I'm not going to come at you with a personal attack, though it is tempting.

The history is Rosser's. It has nothing to do with WHERE he lived that history. By this logic, why not name a street after a Nazi officer? The atrocities of World War 2 were not perpetrated in Brandon. It's ridiculous.

You (and TrevorB or whatever) are doing everything you can to distract from the reality that Thomas Rosser was an abhorrent bigot, and a slave owner. If you support those things, just come out and say it. There is no excuse to have his name on a street in this City.

There are resources you can use - I know you know how to work the internet, because you post here 300 times per day - to find out the histories of Daly, Frobisher, McTavish, and any other name you want.

The research on Rosser has been done, and he was the embodiment of evil, and he eagerly signed up to fight for his evil.

Changing a street name so that our City is LESS represented by the American Confederacy is NOT "more trouble than it's worth" and I say that as someone whose address would be affected by this. It is embarrassing to fill out my address with the name of a slave owner.

As I've previously said, worse efforts than Mayor Chrest's have been made to make Brandon an inclusive and welcoming place for all people, especially the Indigenous community, and I hope that effort continues and we can finally make a meaningful change to how we are choosing to represent ourselves as a community.

Just because there are worse people to name a street after doesn't mean we should settle for a slave owner. Surely we can hold ourselves to a higher standard than "not the absolute worst."

Being ignorant to history is not an excuse. "
post today 299 to go! Hey i think you need to go and read my previous posts there buddy!
In no way am i ever been in favor of slavery, for any people.
I have faced racism all my life, from the white side of the family and the aboriginal side. One was just as bad as the other.
All i am saying is to leave the past in the past.
I did read last night about previous prime ministers of this country and i was shocked at what i read. Everyone makes errors but this particular prime minister did good to that lasts until today.
Look up McKenzie King, sorry i don't have a link to provide but easy enough searched on your own.
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

uh no
6/23/2020 at 9:02 AM

snowman5 said "I can't get past the paywall. (Because I'm cheap) But if this is what the details reveal... That's a huge game changer. I need to shift into the middle again, until this is verified by Adam or a reputable news source to sway me again to either side of this Rosser debate again. Maybe the city needs to hire an professional historian before acting on behalf of a groups demands?

Just my opinion, I'm waiting for more results. "
the city does not need to pay for a professional historian. How about the Rosser avenue group pay for the services of a historian? They are the ones who want the name change not the city. This city has enough expenses without adding more.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

**********
6/23/2020 at 11:42 AM

I seriously don't understand how the "middle" can be, "I'm okay with a Confederate Major General being the namesake of one of the main streets in town."

He was an officer, not some grunt soldier being swept up in the war. Like I said before, he knew what he was fighting for and it was slavery. Hell, most of his underlings knew what it was about. He fought for the right to own PEOPLE. I frankly don't give a **** whether or not he in particular owned slaves, he thought it was okay and he fought for it to continue. Not only did he fight for it, he led other men into the fight.

He fought for the right to own other people!!!

Seriously, I am perplexed by civil war apologists in the Deep South: I am genuinely ashamed of the fact that people in my own Canadian prairie hometown tacitly approve of this BS. We don't need more "research", we need to grow a spine, draw a line, and say that if you are okay, even tacitly, with slavery, you don't get a street named after you.

This shouldn't even be a frickin' debate.

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-23 11:42:49
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

Well
6/23/2020 at 12:48 PM

RantsFromWinnipeg said "I seriously don't understand how the "middle" can be, "I'm okay with a Confederate Major General being the namesake of one of the main streets in town."

He was an officer, not some grunt soldier being swept up in the war. Like I said before, he knew what he was fighting for and it was slavery. Hell, most of his underlings knew what it was about. He fought for the right to own PEOPLE. I frankly don't give a **** whether or not he in particular owned slaves, he thought it was okay and he fought for it to continue. Not only did he fight for it, he led other men into the fight.

He fought for the right to own other people!!!

Seriously, I am perplexed by civil war apologists in the Deep South: I am genuinely ashamed of the fact that people in my own Canadian prairie hometown tacitly approve of this BS. We don't need more "research", we need to grow a spine, draw a line, and say that if you are okay, even tacitly, with slavery, you don't get a street named after you.

This shouldn't even be a frickin' debate.

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-23 11:42:49"
The whole country was accepting of slavery less than a decade before the civil was. There was, thankfully, an evolution of ideology that happened rather quickly.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

****
6/23/2020 at 1:32 PM

bart2 said "Robert E Lee led the Confederate forces. His position prewar was that he would join the army Union or Confederate, that his state, Virginia, chose. That was his criteria, what his state decided. People may have had different criteria for choices than the ones that have been assigned by yourself and others, long after the fact in this discussion. To label them with other criteria without proof is wrong and unacceptable.

We've had an incorrect Mc/Macdonald an incorrect Rosser and many comments that probably constitute libel in this discussion. Maybe a little proof and fact checking isn't a bad thing . But then what fun would social media be?
And thanks but I don't need to grow a spine, I have my opinions and just like you I am entitled to them. "
Really? We're using Robert E Lee as the measure now?

All this tells me is that Lee found a way to weasel out of having to make a real decision and standing for the thought that slavery was wrong. "I didn't lead the war FOR slavery, Virginia made me do it!"

Regardless of how he made the decision, he too fought for the side that seceded from the Union and was fighting for the right to own people. He was a traitor of the highest order and ethically barren.
Prizzy
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Prizzy
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History is history
6/23/2020 at 2:36 PM

Let’s learn from it....not try to destroy or get rid of it.
snowman5
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1022

snowman5
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1022

It's so weird...
6/23/2020 at 3:33 PM

Here, I thought education is the source to ending our dilemma. How narrow minded are we to not look for all the facts? To just spew out the word Confederate and expect the public must immediately formulate that it equals evil without questioning is a form of profiling. This Rosser debate is from a direct result of the "Black Lives Matter" movement that's fighting one the very things that plagues the rights of minorities. ...Profiling. Yeah, I'm wavering on the name removal. ...Because I want all of Thomas Lafayette Rossers life presented before us. What's wrong with that?

This goes right back to the stories my mom told... Her family came to Canada with nothing after WW2. They were Dutch refugees labeled with the stigmatic title as DP's (Displaced People). Their Canadian sponsors were good, fair farmers near Winnipeg with empathy. Meanwhile many other Canadians felt entitled to looked down at them as the scourge that forced labour wages down among the "working class". She and her family lived through the prejudice and established a life as a new Canadians while putting up with the annoyance of a few fixated minds that were more talk than action. My grandparents tolerated it because they had the support from a small Dutch community of sorts established in the area. The German DP's? ...To say that it wasn't as easy in the 50's would be an understatement for some. Fortunately, the Dutch Canadians welcomed in these families and for a decade protected their background so if they had to, they could portray themselves as Dutch immigrants. Preventing the narrow minded ridicules or be denied services brought on by ignorance and misguided hatred towards this one fact of a person. ...that they were German and their father was in the war.

Right now, I can see a resemblance to the stories told from my mother and the blinded attitudes formulated from the frenzy that is called social media. As I said in another post "Yeah, he was a Confederate... What else did he do?" What surprises me that people are angry/upset that I want more information. That I haven't made up my mind and joined their cause simply on this one fact that he was a Confederate officer. Yes, but almost all of the soldiers were absolved after the war. So, it's like Rosser isn't really a criminal, he's been forgiven by the country that he went to war with. Why keep repeating over and over his part as a Confederate without context of his individual thoughts and actions? ...Seems to be lacking a little relevance. Trying to convince others that details don't matter seems too simple minded and very judgmental. The implication I'm getting by some is Confederate equals slavery which equals racism to conclude that anyone and everyone involved being not part of the Union in the American Civil War are evil people. Yikes! Pretty awesome Kangaroo court we have going here if we use that conclusive formula. Let's ignore for the moment, the clemency that happened after the war, the war itself and the fact slavery was legal in his state (even though it's wrong by everyone's standards today)... Who is this guy, Rosser, and what did he do? That's all I wanted to ever know! I don't want you to hold him against to our standards (I'll do that part on my own, thank you), but give me his standards and the standards of the 1880's. And for Pete's sake, don't give us your assumptions, please, give us solid facts. To be truthful, I don't think anyone here in Brandon can give us all the facts. Hundred and fifty year-old documents are not easily obtained through the internet and if I'm right about the vibe here by some... I think a few that are a little biased in this town on this subject. *joke* This is why I suggested seeking outside help before this gets political or too overly preemptive/reactive in making a sound judgement.

I'll admit, Rossers history doesn't look good by modern standards. It's so easy to see things from one point view and declare it good, bad or acceptable with a explanation. However, history should be judged by the entire context of facts, not limited by our inability to cope with our impulses from emotion. We deserve all the facts to find the truth. If the majority of Brandon agrees to remove the name from our street, I would feel confident the decision was done through proving & providing the facts, not profiling a single fact.

...And, I'm going to wait it out a little longer and not make the same mistake in taking someone's word on information I wasn't able to view and make another poor judgement.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Edited by snowman5, 2020-06-23 15:41:01
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

**************
6/23/2020 at 3:46 PM

bart2 said "Kind of missed the point. Oh well thanks for your time. Carry on ranting. We have a saying in training, Too far from the fence. Maybe you should contact Stonewall, there's a place named after a Confederate General and a documented slave owner.
Hey!The sun is shining give it a try :-) "
Oh no, I thoroughly got the point, I just think it's total hogwash.

And yeah, Stonewall has a problem. Not a great legacy there is it?

So is that your line? Confederate General okay... slave owner not okay? I'm gonna go with Confederate General not okay... I'm thinking that's a lot more ethical and moral position.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Right now
6/23/2020 at 4:08 PM

snowman5 said "Here, I thought education is the source to ending our dilemma. How narrow minded are we to not look for all the facts? To just spew out the word Confederate and expect the public must immediately formulate that it equals evil without questioning is a form of profiling. This Rosser debate is from a direct result of the "Black Lives Matter" movement that's fighting one the very things that plagues the rights of minorities. ...Profiling. Yeah, I'm wavering on the name removal. ...Because I want all of Thomas Lafayette Rossers life presented before us. What's wrong with that?

This goes right back to the stories my mom told... Her family came to Canada with nothing after WW2. They were Dutch refugees labeled with the stigmatic title as DP's (Displaced People). Their Canadian sponsors were good, fair farmers near Winnipeg with empathy. Meanwhile many other Canadians felt entitled to looked down at them as the scourge that forced labour wages down among the "working class". She and her family lived through the prejudice and established a life as a new Canadians while putting up with the annoyance of a few fixated minds that were more talk than action. My grandparents tolerated it because they had the support from a small Dutch community of sorts established in the area. The German DP's? ...To say that it wasn't as easy in the 50's would be an understatement for some. Fortunately, the Dutch Canadians welcomed in these families and for a decade protected their background so if they had to, they could portray themselves as Dutch immigrants. Preventing the narrow minded ridicules or be denied services brought on by ignorance and misguided hatred towards this one fact of a person. ...that they were German and their father was in the war.

Right now, I can see a resemblance to the stories told from my mother and the blinded attitudes formulated from the frenzy that is called social media. As I said in another post "Yeah, he was a Confederate... What else did he do?" What surprises me that people are angry/upset that I want more information. That I haven't made up my mind and joined their cause simply on this one fact that he was a Confederate officer. Yes, but almost all of the soldiers were absolved after the war. So, it's like Rosser isn't really a criminal, he's been forgiven by the country that he went to war with. Why keep repeating over and over his part as a Confederate without context of his individual thoughts and actions? ...Seems to be lacking a little relevance. Trying to convince others that details don't matter seems too simple minded and very judgmental. The implication I'm getting by some is Confederate equals slavery which equals racism to conclude that anyone and everyone involved being not part of the Union in the American Civil War are evil people. Yikes! Pretty awesome Kangaroo court we have going here if we use that conclusive formula. Let's ignore for the moment, the clemency that happened after the war, the war itself and the fact slavery was legal in his state (even though it's wrong by everyone's standards today)... Who is this guy, Rosser, and what did he do? That's all I wanted to ever know! I don't want you to hold him against to our standards (I'll do that part on my own, thank you), but give me his standards and the standards of the 1880's. And for Pete's sake, don't give us your assumptions, please, give us solid facts. To be truthful, I don't think anyone here in Brandon can give us all the facts. Hundred and fifty year-old documents are not easily obtained through the internet and if I'm right about the vibe here by some... I think a few that are a little biased in this town on this subject. *joke* This is why I suggested seeking outside help before this gets political or too overly preemptive/reactive in making a sound judgement.

I'll admit, Rossers history doesn't look good by modern standards. It's so easy to see things from one point view and declare it good, bad or acceptable with a explanation. However, history should be judged by the entire context of facts, not limited by our inability to cope with our impulses from emotion. We deserve all the facts to find the truth. If the majority of Brandon agrees to remove the name from our street, I would feel confident the decision was done through proving & providing the facts, not profiling a single fact.

...And, I'm going to wait it out a little longer and not make the same mistake in taking someone's word on information I wasn't able to view and make another poor judgement.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Edited by snowman5, 2020-06-23 15:41:01"
there is such a knee jerk reaction to anything that "might" be deemed racist. Do things need to change, yes. But do it in an educated way. No one is properly educating themselves on many subjects. They are using the Facebook and YouTube education system.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Petiton
6/23/2020 at 9:22 PM

A petition created yesterday to encourage City Council to rename Rosser Ave is at just over 80 signatures as of now:
https://www.change.org/p/brandon-city-council-rename-rosser-avenue-brandon-mb
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

A good
6/23/2020 at 10:50 PM

Podcast on the topic of statues and streets named after historical people. Very informative.

I love FU_Politics | STEPHEN & STEVEN - TEARING DOWN HISTORY, let's play it!
https://www.podbean.com/ea/pb-9pj2q-e0093e
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

I just don't get it...
6/23/2020 at 10:58 PM

I just don't get it.

Why are people going to bat for this long dead Confederate General? It makes no sense. I keep seeing, "We need more information", or, "we need more education on the subject". It's simply a cop out.

What more information do we need? He quit West Point a few weeks before grad to go join the Confederate army. I have a good feeling that he knew what the war was about and what he was fighting for. Regardless, he picked the wrong damn side. He fought for slavery. I do not care whether he had slaves or not, he fought for the right of his fellow Confederates to own slaves. He even named the town of Stonewall after Stonewall Jackson, someone we know owned slaves. He obviously admired Jackson as you don't generally name things after people you do not have great respect or affinity for. We know these things, why in the hell do we need to know more?

Let's talk education. Continuing to honour this man is hurtful. Yeah sure, maybe to some of you reading this, you don't give a flying fudge about who Rosser is, or what he did during his life. Fine, you don't care, but jumping to his defence doesn't seem like the next logical step. Civil rights leaders have been trying to educate us about how destructive and hurtful Civil War monuments are to a huge number of African Americans, as a sign that "we may no longer own you like we did your ancestors, but we still control government and society and we will make you walk by monuments to those that wronged your family, just because we have the power to do so." When people tell you that these monuments are hurtful, why isn't that an educational moment? You say you want more information, but when presented with real pain that's happening now you just ignore it. You've been given the information, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

I can hear it now, "Brandon doesn't have a Civil War monument! What the hell are you talking about?" Damn right we do. Rosser Ave is a monument to a Civil War Confederate General. It honours him, that's what monuments do. The argument that we can use it as an educational opportunity is a complete non-starter. I can use the same argument that we can use the renaming of the street as an educational opportunity. "________ Ave was named Rosser Ave up until 2020 when the Council decided that the main street of commerce in Downtown Brandon should no longer be named after a man that fought for slavery, self-dealt and got fired from the railway, and who wasn't even a Canadian.

This has nothing to do with "more information" It has to do with the fact that renaming the street makes some people uncomfortable: "If we do this, what's next?". Can I say this is the last street we'll rename? Probably not. I'm sure there's some skeletons in the proverbial closet still to be found. So, we'll look at the evidence when we come to it, and make a decision. This will not send us down the slippery slope of renaming every street. I suspect that 95% to 99% of streets in Brandon are named after people that were not Confederate soldiers or Nazis. Hell, had we named a street William H Cosby Drive 30 years ago, I suspect we would have changed it this past year to someone more deserving.

Why? Because that's what progressive societies do. They grow, they change. Sometimes we come to conclusions that things that were "meh" in the past are down right unacceptable today. With Thomas Lafayette Rosser we have reached that point. The Street is a monument to a Confederate General, a leader of men in a terribly misguided war, in a Western CANADIAN city. If anyone can explain why that's okay, I'm listening. So far, nobody has given one good reason for keeping it. The best reasons I've heard are, "He wasn't great, but neither was anyone else at the time." "It wasn't that bad, we don't have proof he owned slaves", and "This is just because of Black Lives Matter".

You know what, Black Lives do Matter, and we'e been told for years that monuments to people like TL Rosser are hurtful and damaging. So when you say you want to be educated, take some time and listen to what people are telling you. Maybe the education you crave has been offered to you the whole time.

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-23 23:07:52
Bass-ic
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 217

Bass-ic
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 217

If there is
6/24/2020 at 12:05 AM

a petition to keep the name I will sign that one. Changing names changes nothing. Yesterday is gone do something to make to morrow better!
girlwhojustliveshere
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 1

girlwhojustliveshere
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 1

another petition! go brandon!
6/24/2020 at 1:10 AM

http://chng.it/d27WbXpHMz

here’s another petition, calling for the renaming of rosser ave. if many people sign both petitions, it would send a strong, unified message to our city council. while this is just a street name, it shows our community’s values and who we choose to emphasize through our memorializations has impact, whether we like it or not. while brandon will never escape its controversial roots, we as a community have the opportunity now to work towards building a better future
Kida

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

Kida
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

...
6/24/2020 at 5:01 AM

If we don't learn from our history we are doomed to repeat it....
Orion's-Belt
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 579

Orion's-Belt
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 579

Petition
6/24/2020 at 7:07 AM

Bass-ic said "a petition to keep the name I will sign that one. Changing names changes nothing. Yesterday is gone do something to make to morrow better! "
I’d sign this pettition also. Don’t support slavery. But this seems like it would cost a lot of tax dollars. Changing all the signs. Changing addresses with the post office. The time it would take by home owners and city council and the post office.

Just keep it the same and learn from our mistakes.