Discussions

So gas is at an all time high and my question is what can we do about it? Nothing?

Drive less, change driving style to drive more efficiently, make efficiency a bigger consideration when buying a new vehicle.

Maybe this is the call for an electric vehicle purchase. Two dollar gas could become $4 dollar gas . Whose to stop it?

The government is getting rich off people in rural Canada who do not have access to public transport like busses. The government could quit taxing us so much.

There’s nothing you can do except buy a smaller more economical or alternative vehicle and drive less.  
When I grew up in the UK a family car was a Ford Fiesta because gas was equivalent to $2 a litre years ago there. In Canada everyone expects to drive Yukons and Expeditions, that expectation is going to have to change.

More walking, biking, scootering for us where reasonable,… for now. Come October/November it’ll have to be a different story, but a guy can hope things settle down by then.  
 
Really having to adjust thinking as far as driving across town to get an item or two that might be cheaper than a store that’s closer. Have to run through the lens of if it’s really cheaper after factoring in ~$3 worth of gas, or if it’s something we can keep on a shopping list for next time we’re across town. Gotta be extra challenging for people living in in suburbs of real big cities that have to commute for shopping/work. Extra emphasis on living where you work/shop!

The taxes thing drives me crazy. Most of the taxes we pay are fixed per litre, and don't fluctuate with the cost of gasoline.  
 
For example, the federal excise tax is 10 cents a litre. That rate hasn't changed since 1995. Provincial tax in Manitoba is 14 cents per litre. The carbon tax is 11 cents, having gone up about 2 cents in April. The only tax that fluctuates with price is the GST.  
 
So at $2.07/litre, 35 cents go to taxes not including GST. Including GST, at current prices, it's an additional 10 cents/litre. So between all 4 taxes we pay, approx 20% of current fuel prices go to taxes.  
 
The rest is going to supply chain, and more significantly, the shareholders and investors.  
 
Can we cut some taxes? Sure. But they generate *a lot* of revenue that can't easily be replaced. All levels of government are seriously in the hole. Yes, Alberta did it. Alberta is also swimming is cash due to royalties from sky-high fuel prices. And you know what? Gas in Calgary is $1.91 today. By the time you adjust for their missing provincial gas tax (13 cents a litre) and adjust for less GST (because lower price), they are actually paying *more* than us on the profit margin side of things.  
 
Does some of fuel prices go to taxes. Absolutely. Are the taxes what's responsible for the current high prices. Not really. Will cutting taxes reduce the price? Short term, yes. But in the long run, probably not really. Plus you're kicking all kinds of other things down the road.  
 
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/06/facebook-posts/claim-exaggerates-fuel-tax-rates-australia-and-can/  
 
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/gas-prices-continue-record-breaking-surge-in-calgary-across-canada-1.5936005  
 
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/domestic-and-international-markets/transportation-fuel-prices/fuel-consumption-taxes-canada/18885  
 
 
https://youtu.be/QnBqAzJXVGo Climate Town "Who Broke Gas Prices?" A video that, while with a clear and obvious agenda, gives a decent breakdown of what goes into gas prices (spoiler: it's complicated)

I did the math based on the mileage we track on our vehicles. It costs me 41 cents a km to drive my big van, which gets terrible mileage. It's just over 4 km from my house to Superstore, so a round trip costs nearly $3.40.  
 
If the price differential of what I want is less than that, I will walk to Sobeys instead. It also puts into perspective how much all those little trips cost and ads up to.

Agreed twothreethree. what is more worrying is the indirect effect on produce prices &most other things, when buying rurally prices of essential goods are getting ridiculous, but buying a smaller vehicle is not going to change that anytime soon or EV's come to that.  
Here's the thing it's actually cheaper for me to drive my 5.7L Truck than my 3L BMW . Why is this? Because I only pay roughly$35 pm Autopac on the truck whereas the BM is almost $100 pm so if I only use the truck occasionally I am better off hmmm  
Government not thinking this through at all for sure .  
Of the Trillions of pounds of pollution the World produces . Canada produces 1.5% !!!!!!  
Take a look  
https://youtu.be/sytWLB4-W-M  
 
Edited by Leonidas, 2022-06-09 23:09:18

What happens when the current electricity rate of consumption triples or quadruples due to a massive spike in usage due to a major shift to electric cars ?  
 
Electricity is still a supply and demand product like gas so odds are we'll start seeing price increases as usage rates rise, we'll still be in the same boat as we are now, only then our home heating and lighting will be directly affected as well.  
 
I feel like gasoline industry has the same invisible boogeyman as the meat industry, as abbysmum pointed out, taxes per liter are a small percentage of overall price, just as cattle ranchers get a minuscule percentage of the end user purchase price of a pound of beef or pork.

I really wish I lived in a bigger centre, living in rural area is a huge disadvantage right now. Groceries are more expensive out here than the city. For example a pkg of top dog wieners is $7.99 (for dam wieners) and coop brand bacon is the same price! I see they are $2.47 at Giant Tiger this week! I get it’s about the freight costs etc, but when you are paying 5 bucks more for the same dam thing and gas is too expensive to shop in the city and stock up so you can save it really sucks! AND trying to order dry goods, cereals etc online seems to be limited as to what’s available online. Before Covid you could order all canned and dry goods online, now it’s a crap shoot what you can order. So paying $3.40 to drive to super store isn’t that bad!

Thanks for bringing the facts.  
There’s a lot of (ahem) gaslighting going on on the topic and wider inflation, trying to pin what ails people on gov as if rising prices is a locally, provincially or even nationally-specific problem and that a new politician has a meaningful solution that won’t at the other end sell the planet upstream and create a situation where that same revenue has to be recovered with a new tax somewhere else.  
 
Can we make changes at the local level to make things better? I think we can but it’s gotta be practical stuff centred around what we can actually change versus what’s out of our control. Big picture these are conversations that have needed to happen when you consider accelerating impact of fuel burning on the planet, but it doesn’t make it any less painful that this rise has happened so fast.

That hasn't really happened anywhere in the world yet, even in places where plug-in vehicles now make up the majority of sales. But even if it did, it would still be cheaper to fuel an electric car than a combustion car.

This is a large reason why I think that whoever planned developments like Brookwood or other massive residential developments have done a terrible job. No one can live in these neighborhoods without a car because they are simply too far removed from any grocery stores or other important services. There may be a single bus route that is accessible for public transit but other than that the people living there are SOL.  
 
Perhaps that isn't a problem given that the people who live in these neighborhoods are far more well off than I'll ever be and maybe don't mind paying for the gas required to simply buy groceries, but even if I could afford it there's no way you'd catch me living in one of those areas for that reason. I enjoy being in walking distance from most services I need.

Not a terrible idea-some people prefer to live in a less central neighborhood. Some of us live in the country, which is even further away from any stores. We like it that way, even if it means we cannot walk to any store...even now when gas prices are so high. IMO no place in Brandon all that far from any other place, so getting from Brookwood to Sobeys or whatever store probably is not a hardship.  
 
For anyone who does consider it a hardship-that is something to keep in mind when shopping for a home .

We were looking for a car that would be more efficient than our 1/2 ton, and were lucky enough to find a two year old Kia Niro hybrid.  
 
After a few months, we are averaging a combined 4.3 litres/100km.

Norway being highest percentage of EV sales seems to be increasing hydro costs and relying on government subsidies to make up the difference, and their mwh rate is already crazy high compared to ours, mb seems to be about $90/mwh whereas norway is at $300(euro)/mwh.  
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/international-issues/despite-electricity-price-increases-electric-vehicle-sales-in-norway-climb/  
 
A lot of articles seem to point to EV usage not affecting the market by more than a few percentage points, but from I gather a level 2 home charger runs at 20-40 amps and can take 3-5 hours to charge, that's like running your furnace full bore for up to 5 hours straight every day, how does that not literally double or even triple that house's electricity consumption per day or is my math wrong ?

Government could introduce fuel rationing which could reduce demand and therefore price.  
Or  
Raise interest base rates in steeper increments reducing consumer spending and therefore fuel demand and price.

Your math is off. Let's say the typical EV driver will drive around 50km per day. That will require around 25 kWh of energy, or around 750 kWh per month. A typical gas-heated house will use around 1000 kWh per month, or an electric heated house will probably be around 2000 kWh per month. So charging an EV would usually not double a house's electricity consumption.

I wouldn't say the math is off, just the thought of how frequent recharging would be required. Someone shouldn't need to charge every day like you said. The new F150 Lightning (with larger 131 kWhr Battery) says it has a range of 512 km, so you could go over a week before requiring a recharge if we used 50km a day.  
One also has to wrap it around in their brain that you're electricity bill is no longer just your home but it i:ncludes you fuel as well, so its definitely going to go up. Just remember it would cost 131 kWhr x 9.423 cents/kWhr = $12.21 to go 512 km with the new lightning, a standard F150 that uses 9L/100km and would use 45 L to go 500 km, so right now it would cost you $90 at $2 per Litre.  
The biggest thing is how long it would take you to make up for the increased purchase cost of the EV over the Gas vehicle.

Electric cars average.2 kWh per kilometre. So the 50kms would be 10kwh. Which is even more manageable.

is going to be needed is an off peak rate for charging overnight, most will charge sufficiently to 80% in a 10-12 hour charge.  
The problem comes with the government losing the tax revenue from the gasoline/diesel sales. That shortfall will have to be made up somewhere along the line. Possibly as an additional purchase tax (off putting to buyers) or as a charge on the electric used, the latter being the most efficient as the power companies will merely have to remit larger cheques.  
Problems arise for those folk living in apartments without ground floor access, thousands more charging points are going to be needed and the cost of those will have to be recouped somewhere from the motoring public.  
This is without the cost of vandalism and the petty minded who will doubtless find it amusing to disconnect vehicles in process of charging, or perhaps somehow you can "lock in" the connection?  
The one sure thing is that the government will not lose money on EV's.  
 
Edited by vegimite, 2022-06-10 16:09:50