Discussions

If people are concerned about taxes and social programs they had better realize that they are going to continue to rise if we continue or our present course of expanding the number of government employees as well as wages.  
A recent report by I think the Canadian taxpayers association said that 40% of small business owners made less than minimum wage, these people have money and time invested and if they decide to call it quits there's going to be a big hit to the economy.  
I was asked about cattle prices and like most private business we have ups and downs, electricians, plumbers or most people that run businesses in the trades or even the service sectors have ups and downs, and nearly all of them face competition from others in the same types of businesses. If business suffers a significant downturn it results in a smaller tax base as well as increased demand on government programs which will mean those who are earning monies which exceed a certain level will likely pay at a higher level.  
 
The last people to realize we are in a global economy will likely be governments and government employees, going to be interesting when it happens.

When you retire and sell all your cattle, your land and your equipment, will you be a millionaire?  
 
My very hard working brother made a cool half million selling his herd last fall. He is a small farmer with 2 sections of land.  
 
When everything is sold, he will be a multi-millionaire.  
 
Like any good farmer, he will use all the small business and farm tax holes he can find to hide his money from the tax man, unlike what our local serve and protect will get.  
 
Are you sure your not the "guy" we shouldn't be talking about.

Have someone in the family that wants to farm, so thing won't be getting sold.

this discussion has turned into one about how much the police make when all Brandon's managers make well above the 100k mark.

I''ll confess something, when in high school we did aptitude test every year from grade nine on, mine always came back first choice police services, then clergy, social worker, guidance Councilor and so on.  
I did really want to get into the Mounties, but at the time there were a few shootings and I figured my luck wasn''t really good, so a decision was made not to choose that as a career. The stated pay at that time was very reasonable when compared to the average wage, it was in the $18,000 dollar level, and many of those in the Mounties were not in them for the money but were maybe like myself and would have done the job because it was in their character, not sure if it is the same today, but I believe that many in police services are in there because of their character, and would work for less, but why would you when so many others employed by governments of different levels are well paid, unions might play a big part in it, but you are right, government employees and management cost a lot.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-07-01 14:38:01

don brown said "I''ll confess something, when in high school we did aptitude test every year from grade nine on, mine always came back first choice police services, then clergy, social worker, guidance Councilor and so on.   I did really want to get into the Mounties, but at the time there were a few shootings and I figured my luck wasn''t really good, so a decision was made not to choose that as a career. The stated pay at that time was very reasonable when compared to the average wage, it was in the $18,000 dollar level, and many of those in the Mounties were not in them for the money but were maybe like myself and would have done the job because it was in their character, not sure if it is the same today, but I believe that many in police services are in there because of their character, and would work for less, but why would you when so many others employed by governments of different levels are well paid, unions might play a big part in it, but you are right, government employees and management cost a lot.     Edited by don brown, 2016-07-01 14:38:01"

I'd have to do some checking but I think the RCMP are way below the pay threshold of city police forces. Does anyone out there know for sure?  
 
I wonder how many young men and women go into policing for the pay? A lot of people who become nurses do so for the money.  
 
You make a better police officer or nurse if you have that special desire to serve, I think so anyway.

don brown said "If people are concerned about taxes and social programs they had better realize that they are going to continue to rise if we continue or our present course of expanding the number of government employees as well as wages.   A recent report by I think the Canadian taxpayers association said that 40% of small business owners made less than minimum wage, these people have money and time invested and if they decide to call it quits there's going to be a big hit to the economy.   I was asked about cattle prices and like most private business we have ups and downs, electricians, plumbers or most people that run businesses in the trades or even the service sectors have ups and downs, and nearly all of them face competition from others in the same types of businesses. If business suffers a significant downturn it results in a smaller tax base as well as increased demand on government programs which will mean those who are earning monies which exceed a certain level will likely pay at a higher level.     The last people to realize we are in a global economy will likely be governments and government employees, going to be interesting when it happens. "

I heard about that report but wasnt sure just how much weight that should have? , one who all did they i:nclude in small businesses? anyone from the person selling avon or cookies could be i:ncludes, second, as a business owner you can play with your wages, pay for lots of stuff as business expense and take out dividends, so when they say many small business owners dont make minimum wage it may be technically true but not really accurate  
 
the city may have to many high paid managers tho, i never looked but i would disagree that the city employees make above average wages, maybe years past but any I have looked at in my career were below industry standards, i wonder if that is true for managers as well?

Why is it every year when this report is published, people focus on the police and firefighters? They are an essential service and there is a cost/benefit to them. The real focus should be in the Administration and how the quantity of them has ballooned in the past 5 years. How many Directors, Deputy Directors, Managers, Coordinators, Planners, etc. etc. did the City have 5 years ago vs. today? The report lists 13 Directors, 3 Deputy Directors, and 15 Managers. There are 7 positions in H/R – Director, Deputy Director and 5 others. Their combined salaries are approximately $544,728. Add 40% benefits, the approximate remuneration is $762,619! IT has a Director, Manager, and 12 Information Technologists. Combined salaries are approximately $1,020,675. Add 40% benefits, the approximate remuneration is $1,428,945. These are positions that made the list, there may be more positions in those 2 Depts., that make under the $50,000. There is something wrong with this picture that a city of 48,000 citizens requires that many staff in IT. It appears there is some empire building going on. How much duplication of work/processes is there going on? In this day and age with the advancements in IT technology to have an IT Dept of minimum 14 people seems ridiculous. Are we using antiquated systems? Are the processes that were being used 5 years ago, still required today or have they become redundant or are we employing SALY (same as last year). Do any of these Directors stop and analyze the processes in their Dept. and ask themselves, wait a minute, I have 2 people doing different tasks with the exact same end result – maybe I can streamline and would only need 1 person?  
Mayor and City Council, I urge you to review the report in detail and ask yourselves, are we doing the citizens of Brandon a disservice in allowing the empire building to continue?

14 people in IT sounds pretty reasonable.  
 
In this day and age with the advancements in IT technology to have an IT Dept of minimum 14 people seems ridiculous.  
 
Generally with all the advancements in IT and new systems, devices, and software being added to the portfolio, the support and design requirements will increase. So more people are required as the level of technology increases. The systems don't look after themselves.  
 
Edited by ultraguy, 2016-07-02 14:37:09

maybe you should find out exactly what the IT department is responsible for before you decide how many staff they need.

WilliamBell said "maybe you should find out exactly what the IT department is responsible for before you decide how many staff they need. "

just what the IT department does. I was looking at the city's website about a month and a half ago at the schedule for the sanitation department and found myself looking at a calendar for 2015!

iluv2garden said "Why is it every year when this report is published, people focus on the police and firefighters? They are an essential service and there is a cost/benefit to them. The real focus should be in the Administration and how the quantity of them has ballooned in the past 5 years. How many Directors, Deputy Directors, Managers, Coordinators, Planners, etc. etc. did the City have 5 years ago vs. today? The report lists 13 Directors, 3 Deputy Directors, and 15 Managers. There are 7 positions in H/R – Director, Deputy Director and 5 others. Their combined salaries are approximately $544,728. Add 40% benefits, the approximate remuneration is $762,619! IT has a Director, Manager, and 12 Information Technologists. Combined salaries are approximately $1,020,675. Add 40% benefits, the approximate remuneration is $1,428,945. These are positions that made the list, there may be more positions in those 2 Depts., that make under the $50,000. There is something wrong with this picture that a city of 48,000 citizens requires that many staff in IT. It appears there is some empire building going on. How much duplication of work/processes is there going on? In this day and age with the advancements in IT technology to have an IT Dept of minimum 14 people seems ridiculous. Are we using antiquated systems? Are the processes that were being used 5 years ago, still required today or have they become redundant or are we employing SALY (same as last year). Do any of these Directors stop and analyze the processes in their Dept. and ask themselves, wait a minute, I have 2 people doing different tasks with the exact same end result – maybe I can streamline and would only need 1 person?   Mayor and City Council, I urge you to review the report in detail and ask yourselves, are we doing the citizens of Brandon a disservice in allowing the empire building to continue? "

been a management hiring blitz ever since Dave Burgess lost his seat as our Mayor!  
 
I have tried to keep track of the hiring and it boggles my mind!  
 
I well remember the former editor of the Brandon Sun begging then mayor SDH to hire a director of communications because as he printed in his column "a city the size of Brandon and we don't have a DOC', not too long after his begging (yes, that was his exact word) his co-worker from the paper was hired.  
 
I am in total agreement that the city is swamped with managers.  
 
I wonder how many IT people are employed by our hospital?

Don't cry. Apply.

Simple solution would be to phone the city and ask.

It used to be 50,000 they would post in the paper what these high paid city workers made . Now it's over 90,000 for or small city. They need to get a city manager like they used to have that would get rid of the over paid employees . Now the city has people working at city hall that have titles that are made up to pay them more and the city manager doesn't care as long as his pocket getting the cash too . Sad part is there's not a dam thing we can do about it . Just my opinion.

depending on ambient conditions anywhere between 100 to 300 milliamps, yes milliamps can kill dependending on the resistivity of the person involved and length of limb contact 0.2A causes the heart to fribillate and if not corrected well you know the answer to that one

I would have to agree that our administration and management has ballooned in the last 10 years, mostly under SDH. I don't begrudge police and fire for what they earn.

Good for them!!! I believe people make choices. The people who have received an education, work hard to protect the people in our community, have earned it!! I don't begrudge people who make a good living. It's always the whiners that sit around and complain about another person's good fortune. I say good for them!! Keep doing what you're doing and to the naysayers, focus on your own life and your choices.

WilliamBell said "Simple solution would be to phone the city and ask. "

i guess I should have called city hall and asked why last year's calendar was on sanitation's site for their pick up schedule, after all, with all the IT people working down there it shouldn't have happened and should have been corrected post haste.

G.E.S. said "Don't cry. Apply. "

previous posts?  
 
Residents are worried about the bottom line, the amount homeowners and business owners pay in taxes every year.  
 
The focus needs to be on citizen's ability to keep paying these big tax bills.  
 
I for one think that paying a city manager 206k a year on our small population base is far too much. I don't think I am the only one who shares this point of view either.

with G.E.S. and TallCoolOne.  
 
Many of the posters here seem to be motivated by jealousy and personal greed. Many want some city employees to have their income reduced, so that the posters have to pay less tax.  
 
If you think those city employees have such a sweet deal compared to you then get the necessary qualifications, invest years in developing your skills and you, too, could be in that position.  
 
We all made our choices. To whine now because others' choices worked out better is very small-minded.

I do not begrudge anyone in the salary they are making, providing they are qualified and are able to do the job effectively.  
I do not know if the city employees are paid appropriately. They may or may not be. An objective, independent, third party study would have to be conducted. To have it done internally would be self servicing and subjective.  
What I am questioning is the NUMBER of City employees. Is the City appropriately staffed for the breadth and depth of our infrastructure? Anything can be justified if there is something to be gained by it. The more people you have working for you, the more you become detached, sheltered and removed from what is actually going on. Are the processes being used appropriate and valid for today, do they make sense? Are we employing best practices? Do the people at the top stop and ask themselves, why are we doing this and does it still need to be done this way, is there a better more efficient way? Staffing levels can take a life of their own until someone steps back and takes a hard look at it. Maybe we are overstaffed, maybe we are understaffed I don’t know. It is time the Mayor and Council take the bull by the horns, ask questions and seek answers, from an independent, third party firm that is not answerable to the administration at City Hall. Or at a minimum, walk around City Hall and other work areas i.e. City garage, Police Station, Fire Hall, unobtrusive with your eyes and ears wide open and observe and listen to what is going on, you would be surprised what you can learn by doing this.

This topic seems to come up every year. City of Brandon uses comparable cities to determine how much each department should get for wages/raises. Ie: The cold hard truth is. It doesn't really matter what you think about people making over 100k, it's how the system works. I look forward to seeing this thread started again next year. Here's a link to show that other cities also operate in this way....and have the same concerns.  
http://panow.com/article/525565/103-city-prince-albert-employees-earning-over-six-digits-2014-public-accounts-report

standard standard h8r said "with G.E.S. and TallCoolOne.     Many of the posters here seem to be motivated by jealousy and personal greed. Many want some city employees to have their income reduced, so that the posters have to pay less tax.     If you think those city employees have such a sweet deal compared to you then get the necessary qualifications, invest years in developing your skills and you, too, could be in that position.     We all made our choices. To whine now because others' choices worked out better is very small-minded. "

Give me a break! I've talked to a lot of people with deeper pockets than I have who say Brandon's taxes are too high!  
 
The taxes will no doubt be rising again for the next budget, school board will sock us with yet another increase. That is the worry of citizens!  
 
We come on here to voice our opinions, why be so derogatory towards us?  
 
The Brandon Sun editorial yesterday addresses this very issue, do you think the editors are "jealous" of the city employees wages? Pfft!

all sounds like a bunch of jealousy to me.  
 
If any of the posters on this thread made that much, you can bet they would not be posting.  
 
It's what they make, deal with it.

Don''t get yourself riled about it, all one has to do is look at fiscal responsibility at all levels of government, whether federal, provincial or at municipal and city levels. It is not so much about the increases in wages that is the problem, that is only part of it, the bigger part of it is comparing public to private without applying the actual rules of economics or business principles to the public sector in regards to their spending. The public sector believes that the well will never run dry, and given present tax policies, it may never run dry but the tax burden will continue to increase on all people who make an income above a certain level, or those who own property.  
 
There is a long term picture here that many overlook, but I believe that eventually the principles of business will become part of the management of governments, and it will be relative to the strength of the economy, otherwise we will become a country like Greece.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-07-03 13:13:04

Brenda said "all sounds like a bunch of jealousy to me.     If any of the posters on this thread made that much, you can bet they would not be posting.     It's what they make, deal with it. "

As the taxpayers who are paying those wages we don't have to "deal with it". We have a right to question it. I for one am always confused why Brandon firefighters need to be paid on par with those in Winnipeg. Because of the danger in fighting fires in all of our skyscrapers? I always hear that they get the large salaries because of how dangerous it is. The last firefighter to lose his life on the job was over 60 years ago. And then because of their schedules a lot of them impinge on the private sector by running their own businesses on their down time, effectively taking work from legitimate Brandon companies. I think this department needs to be overhauled!

Johnbisonbear said "    WilliamBell said "Simple solution would be to phone the city and ask. " i guess I should have called city hall and asked why last year's calendar was on sanitation's site for their pick up schedule, after all, with all the IT people working down there it shouldn't have happened and should have been corrected post haste. "

Or maybe they need to hire more because they were too busy and it got overlooked.  
 
In reality, I doubt that the IT people manage the website's content. That generally isn't an IT responsibility.

Johnbisonbear said "    standard standard h8r said "with G.E.S. and TallCoolOne.     Many of the posters here seem to be motivated by jealousy and personal greed. Many want some city employees to have their income reduced, so that the posters have to pay less tax.     If you think those city employees have such a sweet deal compared to you then get the necessary qualifications, invest years in developing your skills and you, too, could be in that position.     We all made our choices. To whine now because others' choices worked out better is very small-minded. " Give me a break! I've talked to a lot of people with deeper pockets than I have who say Brandon's taxes are too high!     The taxes will no doubt be rising again for the next budget, school board will sock us with yet another increase. That is the worry of citizens!     We come on here to voice our opinions, why be so derogatory towards us?     The Brandon Sun editorial yesterday addresses this very issue, do you think the editors are "jealous" of the city employees wages? Pfft! "

I come on here to voice my opinion. When I disagree with your position, why do you claim I am being derogatory ? Are you being derogatory when you disagree ?  
 
Have you ever heard anyone complain because their taxes are too low ?  
 
I know people who would be quite happy to see all city employees take a 25% cut in pay. Their motivation ? Jealousy and greed. They think that if the household income of 1000 city employees was decreased then they would keep more of their earnings. They feel that stepping on someone else in order to improve their situation is justifiable. These same people would revolt if their employer or benefit payer decreased their earnings of benefits.

iluv2garden said "I do not begrudge anyone in the salary they are making, providing they are qualified and are able to do the job effectively.   I do not know if the city employees are paid appropriately. They may or may not be. An objective, independent, third party study would have to be conducted. To have it done internally would be self servicing and subjective.   What I am questioning is the NUMBER of City employees. Is the City appropriately staffed for the breadth and depth of our infrastructure? Anything can be justified if there is something to be gained by it. The more people you have working for you, the more you become detached, sheltered and removed from what is actually going on. Are the processes being used appropriate and valid for today, do they make sense? Are we employing best practices? Do the people at the top stop and ask themselves, why are we doing this and does it still need to be done this way, is there a better more efficient way? Staffing levels can take a life of their own until someone steps back and takes a hard look at it. Maybe we are overstaffed, maybe we are understaffed I don’t know. It is time the Mayor and Council take the bull by the horns, ask questions and seek answers, from an independent, third party firm that is not answerable to the administration at City Hall. Or at a minimum, walk around City Hall and other work areas i.e. City garage, Police Station, Fire Hall, unobtrusive with your eyes and ears wide open and observe and listen to what is going on, you would be surprised what you can learn by doing this. "

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