Discussions

Haven't the new people to Canada been given money to start their own business? That's not a 'even playing field' either is it?

Reserves are permanent and irreversible. That's the "big one" for me to have a reason to object. I don't care if it's industry, commercial development, a casino or homes being planned. Talk to any businessman or lawyer and it's completely unheard of in the "real world" to have a contract that lasts forever. But, with treaties and reservation lands... They can outlast governments. That's the part that gets under my skin. A gas station has a life cycle, at best, of twenty to fifty years. They go out of business, forfeit their obligations to the municipal government (taxes), they in turn... the municipality can legally take over, try to regain revenue loss and re-purpose it. Can't do that with reserve land status. ...It can just sit there, forever. Look at the residential school land overlooking the Valley Road. It just sits there. Can anyone imagine what will happen if or when this purposed Urban Reserve Plan runs it's coarse after thirty, fifty, a hundred or so years? That's right, folks. They walk away, leaving a blight sitting on 18th street for everyone to drive by. If the First Nation Band Council decides to close up, they can also decide not to honor to pay, maintain, clean-up or return the land to it's original state. And the city really can't do a whole hell-of-about-it either, other then to go through the expensive formalities of legal pursuits. ...only to achieve a ruling that does nothing.  
 
Yes sir, lot's of companies make great deals with our city and produce great profits at our expense. Our city has a colorful history of getting the "short end of stick". Companies like Maple Leaf got us good with tax credit deals and lets not forget the waste treatment headache. However, when Maple Leaf does close-up and walks off... We (future city council) still can do something with that property, because we can reclaim it. From best of my knowledge, we can't do that with an urban reserve. This is what makes me fearful. That sense of permanent loss of control of land within our city. Be damned, if I sound like some suspicious hack! I don't have faith or trust in this deal. There's too much controlling power being relinquished by the city that will likely lead to abuse in the future. Democracy as we know it won't exist on that property when we give up our rights to allow this reserve status to happen. We've made "bad deals" before, but nothing in the likes of this that could burn us forever.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.  
 
And, am I to understand there's another urban reserve being planned between the Tran Can and the Airport? But I guess that doesn't count because it's outside of the city boundaries.

Students from Osaka University in Japan put together a culturally responsive housing unit to assist a First Nations group. The students traveled to Manitoba to assist in implementing the plan here on a Manitoba reserve. Hats off to these students and their Professor, so much respect for being human and cohesive rather than judgemental.

I agree with snowman5. I too am against the deal.

Currently Petro Canada operates over 20 gas bars and convenience stores on First Nation land, similar to the one in Winnipeg and in the Trans Canada not far from Brandon....you know the one. Urban reserves offer real business opportunities for First Nation people. When I read this thread I see a lot of people afraid of giving First Nations the opportunity to actually gain a foot hold and make some real impact in the community. I, for one fully support this. The more active First Nations are in our economy, the the better off we all are.

snowman5 said "Reserves are permanent and irreversible. That's the "big one" for me to have a reason to object. I don't care if it's industry, commercial development, a casino or homes being planned. Talk to any businessman or lawyer and it's completely unheard of in the "real world" to have a contract that lasts forever. But, with treaties and reservation lands... They can outlast governments. That's the part that gets under my skin. A gas station has a life cycle, at best, of twenty to fifty years. They go out of business, forfeit their obligations to the municipal government (taxes), they in turn... the municipality can legally take over, try to regain revenue loss and re-purpose it. Can't do that with reserve land status. ...It can just sit there, forever. Look at the residential school land overlooking the Valley Road. It just sits there. Can anyone imagine what will happen if or when this purposed Urban Reserve Plan runs it's coarse after thirty, fifty, a hundred or so years? That's right, folks. They walk away, leaving a blight sitting on 18th street for everyone to drive by. If the First Nation Band Council decides to close up, they can also decide not to honor to pay, maintain, clean-up or return the land to it's original state. And the city really can't do a whole hell-of-about-it either, other then to go through the expensive formalities of legal pursuits. ...only to achieve a ruling that does nothing.     Yes sir, lot's of companies make great deals with our city and produce great profits at our expense. Our city has a colorful history of getting the "short end of stick". Companies like Maple Leaf got us good with tax credit deals and lets not forget the waste treatment headache. However, when Maple Leaf does close-up and walks off... We (future city council) still can do something with that property, because we can reclaim it. From best of my knowledge, we can't do that with an urban reserve. This is what makes me fearful. That sense of permanent loss of control of land within our city. Be damned, if I sound like some suspicious hack! I don't have faith or trust in this deal. There's too much controlling power being relinquished by the city that will likely lead to abuse in the future. Democracy as we know it won't exist on that property when we give up our rights to allow this reserve status to happen. We've made "bad deals" before, but nothing in the likes of this that could burn us forever.     Just my opinion, I could be wrong.     And, am I to understand there's another urban reserve being planned between the Tran Can and the Airport? But I guess that doesn't count because it's outside of the city boundaries. "

I can think of three gas stations in the city that the property is just sitting empty...I don't know if they will be abandoned forever but it seems like it already.

zep said "    snowman5 said "Reserves are permanent and irreversible. That's the "big one" for me to have a reason to object. I don't care if it's industry, commercial development, a casino or homes being planned. Talk to any businessman or lawyer and it's completely unheard of in the "real world" to have a contract that lasts forever. But, with treaties and reservation lands... They can outlast governments. That's the part that gets under my skin. A gas station has a life cycle, at best, of twenty to fifty years. They go out of business, forfeit their obligations to the municipal government (taxes), they in turn... the municipality can legally take over, try to regain revenue loss and re-purpose it. Can't do that with reserve land status. ...It can just sit there, forever. Look at the residential school land overlooking the Valley Road. It just sits there. Can anyone imagine what will happen if or when this purposed Urban Reserve Plan runs it's coarse after thirty, fifty, a hundred or so years? That's right, folks. They walk away, leaving a blight sitting on 18th street for everyone to drive by. If the First Nation Band Council decides to close up, they can also decide not to honor to pay, maintain, clean-up or return the land to it's original state. And the city really can't do a whole hell-of-about-it either, other then to go through the expensive formalities of legal pursuits. ...only to achieve a ruling that does nothing.     Yes sir, lot's of companies make great deals with our city and produce great profits at our expense. Our city has a colorful history of getting the "short end of stick". Companies like Maple Leaf got us good with tax credit deals and lets not forget the waste treatment headache. However, when Maple Leaf does close-up and walks off... We (future city council) still can do something with that property, because we can reclaim it. From best of my knowledge, we can't do that with an urban reserve. This is what makes me fearful. That sense of permanent loss of control of land within our city. Be damned, if I sound like some suspicious hack! I don't have faith or trust in this deal. There's too much controlling power being relinquished by the city that will likely lead to abuse in the future. Democracy as we know it won't exist on that property when we give up our rights to allow this reserve status to happen. We've made "bad deals" before, but nothing in the likes of this that could burn us forever.     Just my opinion, I could be wrong.     And, am I to understand there's another urban reserve being planned between the Tran Can and the Airport? But I guess that doesn't count because it's outside of the city boundaries. " I can think of three gas stations in the city that the property is just sitting empty...I don't know if they will be abandoned forever but it seems like it already. "

Oh but the city can buy them back and do something with them eventually! Just look at the flourishing ex-Esso station on Fourth and Rosser that's been shuttled since 2006! The broken pumps, graffiti and garbage are doing wonders for the ambient atmosphere of the area.

So what I am understanding is that they want to make an 'urban reserve/ First Nation urban development area' to settle a land claim/ get tax free/ treaty status on the land.  
 
What I don't understand is why the First Nation in question needs to make the land treaty status to build a business(s) there? Can they build up a business without the tax exemptions and treaty status on the land? (btw the original treaties 1 and 2 do not mention tax free status)

It's business Or are you trying to stir the pot?  
 
I say if Gambler First Nation has money to invest then let's get at it! Glad to hear that a deal was reached!

What exactly is an urban reserve?

First off I didn't know where Gamblers First Nations was located at, guess I live in a small world at times, but it's located in the Bibscarth area.  
Decided to post a link.  
 
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/gambler-partnership-elcano-1.4247811

RC123 said "What exactly is an urban reserve? "

Portage, The Pas, Swan River.  
 
Edited by Whoknows123, 2018-02-21 08:29:47

What benefits is there for an urban reserve for the Gambler First Nation and what would be the benefits for the City?  
 
Am I correct in thinking that the Gambler First Nation pays for the land but does not pay property taxes afterwards? Do they pay for city services such as water, sewer, snow removal etc? I genuinely do not know how it all works.

I see the older thread has been joined to this one. Interesting read.

RC123 said "What benefits is there for an urban reserve for the Gambler First Nation and what would be the benefits for the City?     Am I correct in thinking that the Gambler First Nation pays for the land but does not pay property taxes afterwards? Do they pay for city services such as water, sewer, snow removal etc? I genuinely do not know how it all works. "

They buy the land and develop it. Instead of city taxes it will be in lieu of. This covers the need for fire/police/water/etc. Converting to reserve status they don't pay tax on goods. Wages if native don't get taxed. Gasoline if treaty number don't get taxed. At the end of the day businesses and hotels will still be able to compete. Everything will still cost the same as it does down the road. If a hotel is built can't see the rooms being cheaper than other local places.

Anyone know how much land is involved? Heard it is on 18th somewhere by Monterey Estates and just trying to picture the area.  
Just wondering how big the area is - like big enough to accommodate a casino/hotel complex if the govt. ever gave the o.k.? One can only hope.........

Is just north of Kal Tire. The old mini golf property right north of Clare ave

The very first post has the article and an aerial view of the land

8 acres of new commercial development will be a big economic boost for the city. Can't see it being anything other than a win-win.  
And thanks Fishin Guy for explaining the urban reserve concept so clearly. Maybe that will set some people's minds at ease as the term "urban reserve" seems to freak them out.

What I don't understand is...If you become reserve status can the land be sold again? Really the only benefit I can see is having workers from the reserve not have to pay taxes. But say they develop the area and an investor wants to buy the property, they can take the money, invest again, repeat cycle. Just like Wayway owns a small parcel of land where the antique place on hwy 10 north was. Something like 6 acres they are going to develop sometime there. If you want to sell off to gain more property could you?

not enough information has been provided to really asses the situation

Fishin Guy said "    RC123 said "What benefits is there for an urban reserve for the Gambler First Nation and what would be the benefits for the City?     Am I correct in thinking that the Gambler First Nation pays for the land but does not pay property taxes afterwards? Do they pay for city services such as water, sewer, snow removal etc? I genuinely do not know how it all works. " They buy the land and develop it. Instead of city taxes it will be in lieu of. This covers the need for fire/police/water/etc. Converting to reserve status they don't pay tax on goods. Wages if native don't get taxed. Gasoline if treaty number don't get taxed. At the end of the day businesses and hotels will still be able to compete. Everything will still cost the same as it does down the road. If a hotel is built can't see the rooms being cheaper than other local places. "

As mentioned this is a business venture. That being said one has to wonder how a small reserve of around 300 can secure funding and loans to support such a lofty investment.  
 
One hopes that this investment does not produce the same result as the Casino on the urban reserve at Sand hills ( loosing millions).  
 
The only competitive advantage is the avoidance of taxes on products that people of status can purchase. After that their plans are to try to compete in a very competitive industry with low margins within the city.  
 
Time will tell just hope that it doesn't turn into a financial burden for the 300 people that it is supposed to benefit.

Well that land their talking about is out of the way and not a prime location. IMO sure it helps Brandon in receiving some sort of cash, which is good. But in the end, I do not see anything significant coming into that area to attract anyone.

These threads always do well to disappoint me. A lot of people getting defensive about something they understand almost nothing about because they have decided that if it benefits the Indigenous community, it must not be good for anyone else...for /some/ reason.  
 
Look, the reality is that development in the city is good for the city. Development of any kind necessarily means economic impact, and that always extends beyond the confines of the business/location.  
 
Anything that creates jobs, brings tourism, enhances business or helps strengthen the Indigenous community, I'm for. Whether or not, as some have said, I get cheaper gas or smokes (which just stinks of negative stereotypes) is really a moot point if your ability to care extends beyond yourself.  
 
There aren't enough opportunities out there and one being created for your neighbor is something to celebrate, not be scared of.  
 
Man. As for the guy commenting on "new Canadians" or however he put it, do better.

I believe it is actually called PILT, Pay in Lieu of Taxes. As some have said it is paid to the city "in lieu of" property "taxes". As for how often the amount is adjusted like property taxes are, I'm not sure. Hopefully for the cities' rate payers just as often.  
 
The issue, and how it creates an uneven playing field, is that it is not the business(es) that will be paying the PILT, it is the land owner, which is the Federal Government. It makes it an uneven playing field to it's similar competition in that, the business(es) don't have to make as much profit to cover their operating expenses (property taxes) and in some cases can pay less in salary because the staff isn't taxed on it. They can then have lower prices and still make more profit, which makes it unfair to similar businesses.  
 
The comparison to Maple Leaf (in Brandon), or as was being done in many cities to try and lure the Amazon HQ, is a fair one, in my opinion. I don't think the concessions that are made to large businesses are offset by the "increased tax base" that is often sited as a good reason. An increased tax base would require new citizens to move to town, and the supposed 'higher wages" don't directly bring in more money to the CITY tax base, (yes more for Prov/Fed income taxes). I don't believe the "trickle down" economics, trickle enough down to justify the expense/lost revenue.

History is full of "special deals." Including some that saw these areas colonized. The topic doesn't really bare going super in depth on that, but it's just not fair to hold a community to a different standard than the one you may be a part of has never embodied.  
 
It's worth remembering that all of this is Treaty 1 & 2 land, and acknowledging that acknowledges that agreements like this are an effort of reconciliation and hopefully it becomes one full of opportunity and empowerment.  
 
History has a powerful echo, and it's one we still hear and one that can only be affected by acknowledgement and concerted efforts for equity and equality.  
 
Shortages in Indigenous businesses may be in some part an issue of fear, but it's not the fear that you're outlining.  
 
We should be extremely proud that our city is a destination for efforts like this one. I know I am.

Urban Reserves were established in the western provinces as an addition to the early land treaties and are a means of further compensating First Nations for the large tracts of their land ceded to the Canadian government.  
 
First Nations have to right to establish First Nations economic trading zones (Urban Reserve) on former First Nations land. As a reserve, the do not pay local property taxes, but do pay annual fees for all city services, including hydro, water, sewage, roads, police and fire service. This amount will equal what would have been collected through taxes.  
 
The Urban Reserve will be open to anyone, not just First Nations people. It is simply an designated First Nations owned and operated business area whose purpose is to generate income, be profitable, and use those profits of the benefit of their communities.