Discussions

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-farmer-fuel-tax-exemption-under-review-1.3620754  
Interesting read,.  
I wonder if Saskatchewan does take away the tax exemption would be removed in Manitoba also.  
121 million is a lot of tax dollars that could be used to repair rural roads that the farm trucks are destroying by driving over them.  
Take a look at municipal roads that are heavily used, a lot are horrendous.

sprinter said "http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-farmer-fuel-tax-exemption-under-review-1.3620754   Interesting read,.   I wonder if Saskatchewan does take away the tax exemption would be removed in Manitoba also.   121 million is a lot of tax dollars that could be used to repair rural roads that the farm trucks are destroying by driving over them.   Take a look at municipal roads that are heavily used, a lot are horrendous. "

Maybe with that train of thought, you could help save those rural roads by picking up the FOOD that farmers grow for you and me with your car and save all that farmer truck traffic.  
Be real. Farmers can't haul seeds and grains with a helicopter. Those roads were built for rural people(Farmers). And NO I am not a farmer.  
While you're taking a look at some of the horrendous rural roads, take a look at some of the horrendous streets in town..??..l?? Go Figure!!

Ahhhh good topic. Perhaps farmers could only take out half loads of grain to the elevators, or make twice as many trips for seed/fertilizer. I mean sure, we can afford to double our time and fuel investments so city people on a Sunday drive have smooth roads. Guess this means you won't mind paying the farmer double his costs when you pick up some beef or bread from the store. Well, that doesn't sound too good does it?  
 
Maybe, and I'm speculating here, it's got something to do with all the excessive rains in the last few years. That may have something to do with the soft roads.  
 
But, I'll remember this next time I see some young kids cutting donuts and sh*tters all over the road cutting it up. Or, when I see oil field trucks on the move again.  
 
Have a smooth day everyone!

The worst part is, even if they clawed the taxes back you know deep down that no where near that $121 million would go anywhere near a road project, hello general revenue stream/bullshit political vote buying project

i always thought the reason for the tax exemption was because most of the fuel is not used on the roads therefor they should not be paying the road improvement tax (which doesn't go to roads most of the time anyway)  
 
I could see them not getting the exemption for the fuel they use on road, grid roads were built for them but they do cost to maintain, but reality is that they would get a bunch of that back when they do their taxes as those are input costs which they can claim for so while the SK government may be trying to find more cash im not sure the farm fuel exemption would be the best place for it

municipal tax to cover the costs of roads and many other municipal expense -the same as city taxes for street repairs and more .......

To reply to the fact of chewing up rural roads with farm trucks...often those semi trucks (not the farm trucks of yesteryear) are overloaded and do go down rural roads when there are paved ones close nearby. One or two miles difference is not that big of a deal. There is no need to get defensive. It is a fact.  
 
Rural roads were not built for large (often overloaded) trucks. If you think about it, less, slower and much lighter loaded traffic in general was on those roads when they were built. Some, like ours, as much as it may have been an award winning road, had & still has a dirt base. This is where the true problem comes in...that, and some are used as an alternate highway (as ours is, and it isn't just local farmers using it) and it should be updated to accommodate heavier loads and heavier traffic. Sprinter has made a very legitimate point. Better roads are what is the issue here...not a farmer's income.  
 
It is certainly worse driving on it in wet years...sometimes it has been impassible. We have seen a semi get stuck, really stuck, on the road within sight from our house. That made our road unusable. There was a better road to use, it would have just taken a few minutes longer...and he would have arrived at his destination on time instead of sitting in the mud hole. It was our access in and out. Our mile was just as bad on the other side of the lane. That farmer found an alternate route the next time to his destination...we could not. I had not seen gravel roads get so bad until the big rigs started using them. I was a farm kid and travelled gravel all over almost all the time...  
 
Now back to the article...I do think that that money would get spent elsewhere, however, as the political leaders may never see the beating gravel roads get, nor would they care.

While it's very true that alternate routes can be available at times, sometimes you need to look at the most cost effective way to get things done.  
 
Also, the amount of money that municipalities would receive for use on gravel roads (that are not provincial numbered roads) compared to what the province would get, to spend on provincial roads (paved and gravelled) is extremely low.  
 
We as rural people have a portion of our property tax that goes into road maintenance every year. But hey, if we can get more money from the gas tax to improve roads I'm all for it

As mentioned above, many of the gravel roads were not built for the semi traffic when they were built many years ago. The farmers are also their own worst enemy as I see them using the gravel roads in the municipality to avoid the spring road restrictions on the paved roads. Most of the municipalities do not impose spring road restrictions.

In my travels around this corner of the province, I tend to see a lot more gravel hauling semi's on the highways and gravel roads than I do farm trucks and trailers, I wouldn't hesitate to say 2 to 3 times as many.  
 
I'm not saying any of them are the problem, goods need to be moved from point to point, I just wish more of our gas taxes went towards infrastructure instead of filling gaps in other departments.

The reason the roads have more semi is because all the railways were torn out and the the farmers were forced to pay to haul the grain faster and farther. Now the railways are pocketing that saving and will only pick up 112 rail cars at a time,the farmer does all their work for them now. Paying fuel tax on fuel being used in the field will not fix the roads. when you are burning 15 gallons an hour producing cheap food I think taxing that is asking a lot of the farmer.  
The Ceo of the railway had a compensation of 45 million dollars, I think we know where the real money in Agriculture goes, tax the big corps that are sucking all the profit out of Ag not the farmer.

B said "As mentioned above, many of the gravel roads were not built for the semi traffic when they were built many years ago. The farmers are also their own worst enemy as I see them using the gravel roads in the municipality to avoid the spring road restrictions on the paved roads. Most of the municipalities do not impose spring road restrictions. "

Like was previously mentioned above in another quote...the govt ripped up our local rail lines because steel is worth alot. They tore down all local elevators because they built a whole bunch in clusters around SW and SE Mb and they figure that that is more beneficial..to have 3-5 elevators within a few miles radius and those of us in the middle of nowhere, well no one cares about us!! We have to take gravel roads to haul anywhere we need to ship our grain because the hwys nearby have restrictions yes. Well what do you expect us to do "B" to make a living for 6 wks in the spring? Will we go on welfare to support our famillies because "hey we cannot drive on the roads till after restrictions" That is just plain STUPID. I wonder if you stay home for 6 wks during restrictions??  
And there is an elevator south of us that empties out all its barley and sends past our Govt road (gravel) during those same 6 wks. I cannot even count the number of semis flying by our yard.  
Had the railroads and elevators stayed in place then ALL our gravel roads AND highways would be in better shape. Our Govt in its wisdom deemed them obsolete (our forefathers who tolled to build these railroads must all have rolled over in their graves)so this is the consequences. It will not get any better! Trust me, as farmers, dont you think we also cringe at the shape of our roads? our livelihoods depend on the roads. Does yours?  
We have enough to deal with farming:weather, pests, volatile pricing, high costs of imputs etc

The government closed the rail lines and elevators? Aren't they privately owned for the most part?

I am not picking on farmers here , but lets be realistic.  
Some here say they are hauling product long distance.  
I get that.  
I am a commercial operator.  
I pay a high insurance rate for commercial plates.  
I do not get a tax break at the pumps.  
I have to saftey my truck once a year(it is not a semi).  
A farm plated truck gets the fuel tax benefit.  
Farm plated trucks get a fuel tax benefit.  
Farm plated truck get a huge discount when it comes to insurance.  
And the kicker is, a person with a class 5 licence can operate that that tandem, that in all likely hood has air brakes and on top of that , they can hookup a pup behind it and it is legal to operate it on the "public " road system.  
As a commercial owner , myself and others find this so unfair.  
A lot of these farm trucks are operating daily on the highways.  
So is it fair?  
I think it is not.

I have to add some info here for the last post.  
 
While it's true farmers get the discount on purple fuel, when prices skyrocket as we've seen in the past, we have to absorb that extra cost. You , as a commercial business, and even owner operator business can very simply put a "fuel surcharge" on their bill, and the end user has to pay it. We as farmers can't do that. So businesses have some control over their fuel cost.  
 
While I agree that only having a class 5  
To drive a tandem truck and pup trailer seems unfair, I can bet you that most of the farmers driving those have plenty of experience and can handle them quite fine. Also, to add to the stupidity of this law, if I hook my flat deck trailer to my truck (3500 Sierra) I all of a sudden need a class 3 because of the weight. I'm sorry if that's unfair, but it's total BS. Why should I have to go get a new licence (class 3, which happens to be the exact same test as a class 5, you just can't lose as many points on the test. Stupid eh?) just to haul my trailer around? Same goes for my cattle trailer.  
 
Kids on the farm are exposed to driving at a much younger age then "city" kids and develop skills faster and earlier then they do. When some kids have 4-5 years of driving experience when they go for their first drivers test, who would be a better driver? (Granted not in all cases, but a lot)  
 
As for the insurance I'm not sure why, I'm thinking likely for liability reasons.

Can I just point out the (very) obvious, that dyed fuel is also used in the tractors and other farm equipment? They are burning the majority of that fuel in the field, not on the road, provincial or municipal.  
 
So, my feeling is that if the fuel tax is meant for road upkeep and improvements, it makes little sense to pay that tax when the equipment isn't on the road, except to get from field to field. And, the majority of equipment moving is doing so on rural roads, for which farmers pay plenty of tax already.  
 
Even the semi trucks you all seem to hate, the farm operator has paid municipal taxes to cover the costs of those repairs and maintenance. The municipality isn't getting a share of provincial fuel taxes for road upkeep. It comes directly from the users of those roads.

No, the test is not the same, by a long shot.

If it is a licensed vehicle on the road, I feel it should not be using purple fuel. They are using highways so should be paying the fuel tax.  
 
My opinion is the only place purple fuel should be used is in tracters and other farm equipment. Many of the pick up trucks that are using purple fuel are glorified cars and are used more for personal or pleasure use than farming. If it on the road pay the tax

T Jay said "If it is a licensed vehicle on the road, I feel it should not be using purple fuel. They are using highways so should be paying the fuel tax.     My opinion is the only place purple fuel should be used is in tracters and other farm equipment. Many of the pick up trucks that are using purple fuel are glorified cars and are used more for personal or pleasure use than farming. If it on the road pay the tax "

Then you would have no issues paying a toll to use gravel roads (not provincial numbered), since landowners have some of their taxes to maintain these roads, where as people living in cities do not?  
 
And, rural residents are not allowed to burn purple fuel if their vehicles are not registered as a FARM vehicle. If caught, there is a substantial fine. Also, does it matter if a farmer uses a "glorified car" (Im assuming you mean a crew cab vehicle here) for farm and personal use? Not all of us can justify more then one vehicle, so why would we?

Tractors working in the field, yes i understand the fuel exemption, i don't think anyone has a issue with that.  
When a person uses the gas/ fuel tax exemption to provide fuel for their vehicle to use "public" roads, be it municipal, or provincial i feel there should be a level playing field.  
When i go to the campground, i see a lot of farm plated trucks pulling camping trailers and boats.  
Is that business?  
I see a lot of farm plated truck owners exploiting the purpose of the tax.  
I live in a town, a town now that has merged with others and other municipalities, so my tax dollars go towards maintaining the rural roads also.  
My fuel tax dollars also go towards that.  
So your argument just doesn't have any merit.

But the canadian farmer is the first to complain when someone somewhere else gets a subsidy.  
Is this not a subsidy.

Guess what, they are paying a fuel tax.

paying a fee to drive on gravel roads as soon as the vehicle paying a reduced fuel tax pays a fee to drive down my residential street paid for by my taxes.I will guarantee there are more farm pick ups wandering my residential street than non farm vehicle driving on your dusty roads.  
 
I still stand by my statement if it is licensed and on the road a full fuel tax should be paid.  
 
Drive into any small town school parking lot and count the number of farm plated pickups.  
 
Check the campgrounds, the coffee shops, curling rinks, the baseball diamonds. Check the plates on those glorified cars.  
 
For 35 years I repaired vehicles, many of them,right from cars and pick ups, had obviously had never seem a farmers field had marked fuel in them.

T Jay said "If it is a licensed vehicle on the road, I feel it should not be using purple fuel. They are using highways so should be paying the fuel tax.     My opinion is the only place purple fuel should be used is in tracters and other farm equipment. Many of the pick up trucks that are using purple fuel are glorified cars and are used more for personal or pleasure use than farming. If it on the road pay the tax "

along the same lines as this person is thinking, that anything that is plated for the road should burn road taxed fuel. And I have been a farmer and and when I could I did benefit from using dyed fuel for my road travels, but also have said to many people that it isn't totally fair either. Many other businesses run equipment and burn fuel for "non road" purposes that pay road tax. Landscapers running bobcats, anything with steel tracks etc, should not have to pay road tax on their fuel either. Thats an opinion that I have expressed more than once and if our country is going to start to work together I as a farm boy would support that change.

Ok let's be fair about things, we produce both cattle and grain and the prices of these commodities are set on a world market. With cattle we compete against countries that have no winter and lower costs of production in just about every area and our country will import beef from these countries to keep the consumer happy. Grain farmers face competition from countries around the world, our neighbour to the south has government ag programs that we could only dream about but because of a much smaller population would never happen here.  
Back to the fairness idea. Most business in this country lives and operates in a domestic world, ya, I would like to see fairness, I would like to see our borders open and allow trade people as well as business to operate in this country using the rules and wage levels of their home country, just imagine people coming here to work in your field of occupation for half or a third or what you receive. In my mind that would be fair, and it likely wouldn't affect your lifestyle much would it.  
We get a bit of a brake on fuel and many other Canadians get a break in other areas, such a cheap food because some of compete on a world market.

FarmerMike said "    T Jay said "If it is a licensed vehicle on the road, I feel it should not be using purple fuel. They are using highways so should be paying the fuel tax.     My opinion is the only place purple fuel should be used is in tracters and other farm equipment. Many of the pick up trucks that are using purple fuel are glorified cars and are used more for personal or pleasure use than farming. If it on the road pay the tax " Then you would have no issues paying a toll to use gravel roads (not provincial numbered), since landowners have some of their taxes to maintain these roads, where as people living in cities do not?     And, rural residents are not allowed to burn purple fuel if their vehicles are not registered as a FARM vehicle. If caught, there is a substantial fine. Also, does it matter if a farmer uses a "glorified car" (Im assuming you mean a crew cab vehicle here) for farm and personal use? Not all of us can justify more then one vehicle, so why would we? "

Don't be obtuse. Everybody pays for their own local roads. It would make no sense to charge tolls to everybody from other municipalities.

Farm commodities are not the only items priced on the world market. The price of many items is set on the world market. Steel, clothing, oil, tractor parts and many more. A few of the items that I can think of that are not priced on the world market is milk and eggs.  
 
We did not have to let people into Canada to work for lower wages, poor and unsafe working conditions, they stayed in their own country and sent their lower priced and in many cases inferior products here.  
 
Many of the countries do not have to heat their work places, lower costs. Are located close to tide water and have much smaller land mass to transport raw materials and finished product, which lowers transportation costs.  
 
Many countries have few or no pollution control laws, lower costs.  
 
Many countries have few or no labor laws, lower costs.  
 
There are many reasons other countries produce items cheaper than we do. And if we are competing with them, we need to adapt.  
 
There are a few countries that I will not knowingly have their food on my table. I do prefer food produced in Canada and do at times pay extra for it.  
 
If you want to talk ag programs, is supply management a subsidy?

Farmers fuel tax rebate are needed because 95 percent of a farm fuel use is diesel fuel. only a tiny percent is used for farm vehicles.last year our fuel bill was 36000 for farm fuel and 2500 for vehicles use. half that vehicle use would be farm related. so we spent 37200 dollars producing cheap food and adding the fuel tax to that would amount to approx 4000 dollars. ask the average consumer to pay 4000 extra in road tax and see how much sense that makes. Commercial trucker complain about farm trucks having cheaper cost but they are on the road only 10 percent of what a commercial trucker would be, plus farmers can't bill someone else with a fuel surcharge.

I wouldn''t say supplyanagement is any more of a subsity than something like minimum wage, without supply management on things like milk, eggs and poultry the supply as well as price would rise and fall to what the market would bare. With minimum wage, any worker is garenteed a certain amount of money for a job, and minimum wage increases regardless of unemployment numbers.  
 
As for adapting I would ask this. Say grain prices really take a tumble, we have a farmer in Melita who produces grain, and we have a farmer across the line that produces grain, their government says to increase the price of grain they will pay their farmer not to grow a crop for a few years, and our government does nothing, same goes for their government buying grain or paying farmers to store grain, so I would like an explanation how to adapt to something like that  
Usually we don''t adapt, what we do is sign trade deals that are supposed to make things better, but if you listen to the current line of thought out of the US, they are questioning whether this works or not. Most trade deals that are signed have nothing to do with adapting, or even competing, but are sign to protect a standard of living that is not really sudtainable in a global economy  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-06-10 06:38:56

Dont see how driving with farm plates is any different then all those kids driving around with commercial plates because daddy is a business owner. Just cause u see a truck with farm plates in town doesnt mean they are exploiting the tax exemption. Could technically live in town or in town paying bills.