Discussions

I'd really like for you or anyone with the same ideals to clarify for me what "fair share" is? For me/us to contribute 10 % of our income to charities would mean giving up only my annual medications; then there are medications for my S.O.. We have to make choices. These are life supporting medications in both cases.  
How would you deal with that? Just curious.

A person could interpret the OP to be saying that only people who donate large tax-deductible amounts of money to registered charities are going to go to heaven. Those who are unable to donate money, I guess they aren't going to enjoy the riches of heaven. If we don't give money to registered charities, we are ungenerous and uncaring.  
I am pretty sure that is not what Christianity is about. I think SpagettiMonster's grandpa has it right - don't try to guilt, shame, or otherwise persuade others to do something that you think is the only way, just worry about yourself.

Curlysister your interpretation of my words is reading something into my message which is not there. I am not saying that only people who donate large sums go to Heaven. I don't get to determine who goes to Heaven, and for good reason. Nor did I ever say that those who don't give money to registered charities are necessarily ungenerous and uncaring.  
 
Perhaps for those who may not have much, or who may be have limited financial means, it may be comforting to know Jesus' words in this regard.  
 
"He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums.  
A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents.  
Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, “Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury.  
For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.”  
 
But curlysister I completely disagree with your comment on not trying to persuade others to consider doing what I believe is right. Every day our society attempts to persuade us to take certain courses of action, why not attempt to persuade Brandonites to consider whether in certain cases they can give more to charity? Do you honestly believe that there is something wrong with that curlysister?

The last couple of days I have been thinking of all the charities my daughter and I have been collecting for. It's getting a little overwhelming to be honest. The only tax receipt I file is from my weekly church offering because it's substantial, I'm too busy volunteering to keep track of all the rest. Like many have said school charities come at you all year. So far this month we have been collecting donations for the Terry Fox run. Collecting pledges for a run we are doing to support infant and child medical care in 3rd world countries. Raised enough to send a girl to school in a country where girls don't typically get to attend school. Last but not least is the Run for the Cure. We also donate our time to 5 different organizations at different times of the year, church, service clubs, and community outreach groups etc. I see many people around me in the community donating many hours of their time and money to lots of different causes. Maybe you need to change the circle you run in to see all the good things people do in our community for others. I think the people who can help out do. Lead by example and others will follow, isn't that what Jesus did? It turns people off to be accused of being uncharitable and uncaring.

If you really think about it every single person in this country who files /pays income tax is indirectly donating to charity. Just look a bit deeper to see how much of our hard earned tax dollars have been given for aide to other countries while we have people in our own country who are suffering.  
 
To the original poster:  
Do you not realize Health care is NOT FREE: We pay through our taxes!  
Years ago they did not pay the high tax rate we currently have whether that be federal, provincial carbon, GST , property taxes etc ,  
they received more than 2% interest on money they saved at the big banks.  
Cost of inflation matched the cost of living  
And the differences go on.  
As for the quotes from the BIBLE- well I equate it to a child-A creative yet delusional imagination of a character!

actually GETS to the people it's supposedly for? Next time you want to donate to a charity check out how much the paid people (CEOs, CFOs etc.) get paid & what % that is of every dollar donated. Quite frequently a HUGE chunk of what you donate is actually to pay for salaries NOT to help out.  
 
As well, I used to donate to the Salvation Army - that is until those ILLEGAL immigrants came over the border at Emerson. It had been bitterly cold when this was all going down & 2 days before the illegals fiasco, the Sally Ann was saying that they didn't have enough shelter spaces for CANADIAN homeless sleeping outside during that cold. Two days later, they miraculously found ONE HUNDRED beds "somewhere" for those illegals. ONE HUNDRED. So they are letting our own citizens go without while catering to someone who is entering this country illegally.  
 
Rather than donate cash, perhaps consider volunteering your time etc. to an organization. My husband helps out at a soup kitchen & we donate excess from our garden to those in need. I spend my charitable dollars feeding & taking in (spaying/neutering, finding homes) for feral cats in my area. We KNOW where our money & efforts are going and it sure isn't to some big wig's exorbitant salary or at the expense of CANADIANS in need.

"I also have to ask from a Christian perspective, who is going to make it to Heaven, if Jesus' own words are, 'Sell your belongings and give alms.'"  
You are asking who is going to heaven if we aren't giving away our belongings.  
 
"So, what's going on with people, have the vast majority of us seriously just become incredibly ungenerous and uncaring? "  
You are calling the people of Brandon (or the vast majority of us) not just ungenerous and uncaring, but INCREDIBLY ungenerous and uncaring.  
 
" I quote my source as coming from the Globe and Mail, which provides the statistics given to it by Statistics Canada. Those stats would have come from actual tax numbers.  
There appears to be a disparity in numbers between the survey you quote and the tax numbers produced by Stats Canada. This is unfortunate because it means that people are either lying in the survey, or they aren't reporting their charitable donations on their tax returns. "  
Funny that your first inclination is that people are lying about what they donate! Just because it is self reported, does not mean the information is less accurate.  
 
" why not attempt to persuade Brandonites to consider whether in certain cases they can give more to charity? Do you honestly believe that there is something wrong with that curlysister? "  
Because people are generally good and kind. Those who are able, DO give of their time and energy and talents and wisdom and money when they can. There are much more effective ways to increase giving (and not just monetarily). Leading by example, being humble and kind, asking someone if they want to go with you when you volunteer, being a champion of kindness and generosity in all aspects of your life, not calling anyone out or presuming you know their situation and abilities, not expecting or hinting that people should leave themselves short of money/ time/ energy in order to help others, praise people for the good that they do, publicly share how MUCH people are doing rather than how much they are NOT doing, etc ,etc.

You need to interpret the bible as a whole not just bits and pieces of it. Charity means many things - taking 30 seconds out of your busy day to offer some kind words to a family who is devastated with a member suffering from cancer, or who lost a loved one to death. It also means mowing the grass or shoveling the sidewalk for a senior or someone for whatever reason finds this task difficult. If you can afford to donate money then by all means donate to the local hospital (they are always looking to purchase equipment), dog rescue, food bank or soup kitchen. People need to fix the problems in their own community before extending themselves to other countries or even other communities.

To large registered charities whose most funds go to adminisration. I give to people in my own community who are facing major health problems, or are victims of crimes. I don’t have tax receipts. I probably give about$1000/year. We are not wealthy people so this isn’t small to us. We don’t have t

This response is ON POINT! Couldn’t have said it better myself. Your up committed2brandon

In response to Curlysister and some of the others who have suggested that people are generally good and kind. I agree that in many ways, many many people within our society are good and kind. There is much proof of that. As I said in a previous post, donating money is not the only way one can give of themselves to help others or in particular the less fortunate in our world. I commend all those who give of their time, money and efforts for the love they have for their neighbors and this world.  
 
However, I stand by my original point, that the actual Statistics Canada numbers suggest that on the whole Canadians on average, when it comes to their pocketbooks do not give very much at all to charity. I also stand by my original comment that we have so many more reasons to give to charity now then we ever have in the past, and we have so many more reasons to give to charity as Canadians then most of the rest of the world.  
 
You seem to be offended by my comments in particular Curlysister, but I think it's important to remember that I was not calling out any specific person, but rather I left my post open-ended, because although yes I believe there are many who give a lot, compared to our overall population what we give today relative to what our ancestors used to give to charity is abysmally low.  
 
I think that to remind us that there is so much more that can be done is exactly what we need to hear. There is so much grace that comes from giving to help those who are in need. The words of Christ are just as prevalent today as they were in the past. True, I'm worried about our society, and I think we need to hear it, that there is still much suffering in this world, and that there is so much more that can be done to help those who are in need.

I think the stats done by Canada are flawed though. As you can see from posts here, people are donating but maybe not to the big charities anymore where a lot of the donations are spent on salaries and not where the donator perhaps hoped it would go...to the actual charity. So, as a result, many people are taking it upon themselves now to help those directly in need and not getting the credit/receipt for it.  
 
Look at any post on a swap page where the OP is asking for help in regard to household items, toys for kids, clothing, food...people of Brandon jump in and help. That’s the kind of charity I like to see and donate too. You know it’s made an impact and it’s direct from donator to donatee (I think I made up those words haha)

Many people live paycheck to paycheck these days. Lots of people I know have a zero or even slightly in overdraft before there next paydays. I know some people who have lots of money as well. I read an article once that said after we pay taxes on our paycheck. Then taxes on all the goods we buy over half of our income is gone to the government. Then you factor in all the bills people have and you still want 10% of our income to be donated. In all honesty I just don’t think the Majority of people have the money to give.

I too believe that most people are mostly good. I see good things happening every day. Some mundane some epic many are so ubiquitous as to almost be invisible.  
 
The truth is, in many ways we “globally” are getting better. Poverty levels are dropping, infant mortality rates are dropping, equality is being accepted more and more by cultures all over the world. As a result women are being educated at a rate that was unheard of a generation ago. This, the education of women, is the single most effective method of elevating a society out of wide spread poverty.  
 
We are, as a whole far more “aware” than we have ever been ( though it’s not obvious sometimes ie look to the climate change thread for evidence of that ) and the role of altruism has moved to the level of governance with nations contributing to humanitarian crisis on an unprecedented scale.  
 
The problem people have with your post( I think ) is the impression you’ve are defining charity in a very narrow way. What about the tax dollars we all pay? Are you including them? The act of deliberate election of an entity we know will help in situations of crisis and will use our hard earned tax dollars to do so can be seen as an act of charity.  
 
Canada has long been known as a charitable country and that reputation is well earned by the citizens who insist we help when global neighbours need help.  
 
One could assume you are a generous person given your post and subsequent defence of it. But those posts imply others are not, and that is what leaves a bad taste in their mouths. A “Who are you to sit in judgement?” kind of feeling  
 
One could say your generosity is born of compulsion. Your religion insists, so you do. Is that true altruism? What would happen if you were to be convinced your beliefs are false?  
 
Or perhaps you give in an effort to avoid the fires of hell rather than out of innate goodness. That amounts to coercive giving which by definition is not generosity.  
 
How do you like having your motives brought into question? Not much fun is it?

If you go back 50-60 plus years (some of us are older then dirt and remember those years) the catholic church preached that one must give a tiding of at least 10% of their monthly income in order to survive the wrath of satan. Even if this meant a family went without necessities required to live. That was preached every in almost every sermon on Sunday. Back then families were large consisting of 6 or more children, and they struggled to make ends meet - yet in order to be saved they still gave 10% of their income to the church. Since then people have smartened up - and take care of their families first without feeling guilty or feeling threatened by the fires of hell. Did you know the Vatican is the wealthiest organization in the world - worth 100's of billions of dollars-yet not one cent is used to help the poor in developing countries. Our parents, grandparents and great grandparents etc. contributed to that wealth due to the fear put into them by the Priest - so we should all have a say in regards to the disbursal of said funds. In regards to Revenue Canada you have to have a minimum of $75.00 worth of taxable receipts in order to claim a deduction. There are a lot of low income families and seniors on fixed incomes whose yearly donations do not amount to $75.00 yet they give what they can. There are also individuals who give more then $75.00 but don't claim same as they have enough other claims (eg. medical expenses) that puts them in a 0% income tax bracket that they don't need to claim their charitable donations. As stated previously charity consists of many things - donation of money, food, acts of kindness etc. Your charity should stay within your community.

I agree with you that in so many ways globally the world is getting better. However, there is still incredible widespread poverty throughout much of the third world where they could definitely use some of our help. I further agree that the education of women has been absolutely instrumental in helping to lift much of the world out of poverty. To say that it is the single most effective method however is difficult to judge. I say that because at the same time as there have been improvements in woman's education, there have also been great strides made in improving the production of food, technology, healthcare and education both of men and women.  
 
In response to your suggestion that people perceive me to be defining charity in a narrow way, I think that may be fair, however as I have said in previous posts there are many more ways to give charitably then just monetarily. Perhaps my original post was not as lengthy as it could have been in giving the appropriate due I could have to alternative forms of charity, but then again as can be surmised from some of the responses I have got, some people have only been reading bits and pieces of what I have posted – and perhaps understandably so, we only have so much time on this earth, after all.  
 
You then ask the following questions:  
 
“What about the tax dollars we all pay? Are you including them? The act of deliberate election of an entity we know will help in situations of crisis and will use our hard earned tax dollars to do so can be seen as an act of charity.  “  
 
My response is that no, I did not specifically include the tax dollars we pay as an act of charity in my original posts. I certainly agree however that the 'deliberate election of any entity we know will help in situations of crisis' can be an act of charity. The problem with seeing paying ones tax dollars as an act of charity though is that paying taxes is a requirement that we all have. It is something that is forced upon us, though not without generally good reason. Voting for a certain governments that we know will provide programs to help the less fortunate or which will provide support and humanitarian efforts to those in need may be a good thing to do, but it is not the same thing as giving because one is freely choosing of ones own volition to help those in need.  
 
When you are referring to my posts on this subject, I see what you mean when you say:  
 
“But those posts imply others are not, and that is what leaves a bad taste in their mouths. A “Who are you to sit in judgement?” kind of feeling”  
 
I agree that this could be construed as one possible implication from my original post, that I am somehow sitting in judgment of others, this however was not my intention. Do most advocates end up facing the same form of scrutiny when they campaign for a social cause, and suggest that others should take a cause more seriously, such as you have done in your postings on climate change?  
 
As an aside, I think that this same sort of feeling likely comes over many within our society when their government ends up using their tax dollars to support causes that the government deems as charitable, but which much and sometimes most of the populace does not agree with. For example when Justin Trudeau pledged billions of dollars over 10 years to help fund abortion worldwide for 10 years. Although Justin was elected as our prime minister, I think many still feel like he doesn't have a right to give away our tax payers dollars for a cause that many feel causes much more harm in the world then good. As I said earlier, our tax dollars are forced from our hands. Our charitable donations are acts of the will.  
You then ask,  
 
“One could say your generosity is born of compulsion. Your religion insists, so you do. Is that true altruism?”  
 
To this I would say that your question is almost pointless in a sense, mostly because that question can be asked of pretty much anyone in any set of circumstances. The old did you do something truly altruistically or did you do it because of some selfish reason has been asked about a million times over, not just to question someones religious motives. By that logic, one could suggest that anyone anywhere in every situation is selfish, which I think is a really pointless suggestion to make, and kind of a joke.  
 
But I will do my best to answer your question none the less. My religion does insist that we give to charity, but that doesn't make the act any less right. If anything, I would suggest that it makes it all the more right, because it implies that you believe in a moral code and are actually prepared to follow up on it, which at the very least makes you internally consistent. To then question the reasons why that person believes in those moral codes is sort of a separate but related question, which is what you have done when you say,  
 
“Or perhaps you give in an effort to avoid the fires of hell rather than out of innate goodness. That amounts to coercive giving which by definition is not generosity.”  
 
Well again, I could pose the same question you asked one step earlier right back at you, is there ever any truly altruistic acts?  
 
Your question really comes down to one of terms and the use of them. It is an easy feat for someone who has studied logic and philosophy to refute questions like those because your terms are ambivalent. You say that giving for the sake of some other reason is not acting out of generosity, I think most dictionaries don't define generosity that way. Does one have to be truly altruistic to be generous?  
 
To give you a few pieces more of information into the Christian response however, the hope is that for someone who is striving to be a true Christian that yes they would give in part because they want to go to Heaven, for Heaven is the place where the source of all true love exists, and in giving we share in the gift of that love. We want to be like our Lord and savior, for he is all good and all loving, and so why wouldn't we want to be more generous, especially if that draws us ever closer to the one who is the source of all love?  
 
And to your final question,  
 
“How do you like having your motives brought into question? Not much fun is it?”  
 
Actually, I disagree, in this case I rather enjoyed it, being able to converse with you, and share my thoughts. So thank you Spaghetti Monster, I will pray for you (but probably not for the most altruistic reasons, lol)

Ram 1952, I have a difficult time believing that the Catholic Church ever preached that in order to be saved every single person had to give 10 percent or more of their income to the Church, but even if some unfortunate preachers within the Catholic faith may have taught that, this does not in any way take away from the fact that it it not a Catholic belief.  
 
However, I truly believe that if one can give away 10 percent of their income to Charity, it is more then a good idea to do so.  
 
As for your comments that  
 
“Did you know the Vatican is the wealthiest organization in the world - worth 100's of billions of dollars-yet not one cent is used to help the poor in developing countries.”  
 
Actually, you are 100 percent completely wrong about that. The actual fact is that the Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services in the world. According to one statistic, the Church runs more then 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,500 hospitals, 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, with 65 percent of the orphanages, hospitals, clinics and homes for the elderly located in developed and developing countries. This doesn't even i:nclude much of the charitable spending and work that goes into projects ran by over 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world which are not picked up by official statistics. This doesn't even mention how much the Catholic Church has done in the centuries past in feeding the poor, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry or healing the sick.

Lots of stats. Got any on number of children defiled? Not giving just money. How generous.

I notice that you have been able to respond to quite a few others who have posted. Could you please answer the simple questions that I asked of you ?  
Thank you.  
By the way, I do give of my time as I'm able.

Woody94,There can be no doubt that there have been many unfortunate cases of sexual abuse amongst individuals within the Catholic Church, and my heart goes out to any victims of this sort of abuse. But to label the Church based on the actions of a small portion of those who make up it's body, is the equivalent of being prejudiced towards an organization or group based on one or a few of it's members. Or as an analogy, this would be the equivalent of someone saying the education system is ugly and defiled because of all of the teachers who sexually assault children.  
 
Some statistics, as you have requested Woody94.  
 
One of the most intensive studies on clerical sexual abuse in the United States suggested that the percentage of priests accused of sexually assaulting minors is around 1.8 percent.  
 
Hofstra University researcher Carol Shakeshaft looked into the issue of child sexual abuse in the school system in the US and in her words she says “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more then 100 times the abuse by priests.”  
 
Further the evidence strongly suggests that the sexual abuse claims of pedophilia in Protestant Church's is much higher then that in the Catholic Church, and most of it is being done by volunteers.  
 
Ok, now if the Catholic Church claims to be the Church that it says it is, and that is the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, then would it not make sense that Satan would do everything he could to attempt to bring down the Catholic Church. Therefore, is it really any surprise that when people think about the Catholic Church, the sex scandals are often the first thing that comes to mind? Is it any surprise that our mainstream media often barrages us with headlines of scandal within the Church but just as often ignores the allegations of sexual abuse within the education system, protestant Church's and other entities like the boy scouts?  
 
Now, here's another thing. Remember the communist party? Well it was a pretty big deal at one time, so much so that for much of the last century the world was under constant threat of nuclear annihilation from communist governments who had as one of their stated aims the complete destruction of religion and in particular seemed to have their eyes set on destroying the Catholic faith. Well, we know from one former Communist educator who was called to testify before congress in 1953 that she was “personally responsible for more then 1,200 seminarians, priests and bishops.” She further said that the directive came directly from the Kremlin that their stated intention was to try to get communist party members who were homosexuals who could live double lives and be priests. What does that mean? That there was a group of predatory homosexuals who became priests not to serve the Church but to destroy her from within.  
 
The evidence suggests that the vast majority of victims of clerical sexual abuse are male, somewhere between 80 percent to more then 90 percent. Therefore, although the Catholic Church preaches that practicing homosexuality is a sin, there appears to be a crisis within the Catholic Church, where there are a small number of mostly homosexual priests who have committed unspeakable acts against mostly teenage boys.  
 
The facts remains, the Catholic Church is still the largest charitable organization in the world, and does so much good, just as most teachers do much good, you cannot discredit the Catholic Church simply based on the actions of a small number, whose actions the Catholic Church had undeniably condemned.  
Below I have included the references to my statistics and sources  
 
 
https://www.firstthings.com/article/1996/02/004-the-uses-of-clerical-scandal  
 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/  
 
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-enemy-within/  
 
https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

To MDG, I'm not sure what for you would be a fair share to charity. It could be that in your case, as you have said likely you simply don't have the funds right now to give financially to charity. Perhaps your way of giving is in many other non-financial ways. I'm not attempting to judge you MDG or anyone individually. Only you can know what you can or can't give in your heart. I will pray for you that you come to know that.

I do not want to turn this thread into a religious debate - however- here are a few things for you to consider- corruption within the catholic church has been going on for centuries. Because of the corruption many new religions (such as Lutheran and United to name a couple) came about during the dark ages. The abuse of children has been going on within the church for a 100 years or more. Remember, a clergyman could abuse a child on Friday - go to confession on Saturday - and all was forgiven within the eyes of God according to the church. Its only been the last few years that the church has acknowledged a problem simply because so many young people have become dislusioned with same and have left the church. Look around at how many churches have been closed and said property put up for sale due to dwindling congregations I admire you for your steadfast belief as in order to have hope of an afterlife one must believe in something.

A few people have mentioned being concerned with what % actually makes it to the charity. This is a valid concern, and for any registered charity, you should be able to find those numbers, even if it involves a bit of digging. If you are serious about trying to up your charity donations, you can do some searching ahead and find where your money will be best used. Everyone has something they are passionate about... whether it is veteran's affairs, cancer research, children's hospital, spreading the pro-life message, climate concerns, helping those in less fortunate countries, etc etc. If you want to, and if you are able to, find a project you are passionate about and become involved in it. It is easier to donate when you know how the insides of the charity work. In this rural setting, there are many grow projects that collect money for different causes, such as Boissevain building a seniors home they are collecting for, or some towns collect money for rink repairs, a daycare, etc, and of course, there is CFGB. These projects have many volunteers, and are surprisingly efficient with donations.

That is one heck of a terrible question. First, you don't worry about what other people give. Get off your condescending high-horse and mind your business about other people's financial and philosophical reasons of how they handle their money.  
Secondly, I do not give 1 cent to charity for one simple reason. There are many people getting rich or simply wasting charity money. Look at the open book finances of how many/most charities operate. I won't be a part of that. Maybe just help out those who you can. Get involved in the community and do what you can where you are on an individual basis. Get your hands dirty. You're talking about God and Jesus and whatnot.... so I'll speak your language (former Christian here) St Francis said, Preach the Word wherever you are, and only if you have to, use words.  
 
And very briefly and lastly, there are surprisingly good philosophical reasons for not participating in charity. Not that I particularly subscribe to them, but there are.