Discussions

FN bleat about reconciliation and let me tell you this..... all the blockades are doing is fueling hate and anger towards their peoples.  
The Supreme court ordered the pipeline should be built, NO citizen or any group is above the law but we have Trudeau breaking the rule of law and he gets away with doing so...

When one decides to break the law to make a point there has to be consequences for that person otherwise it opens the door for everyone to follow suit.  
The police's decision not to intervene in some of the blockades is saying to everyone - hey do the same for whatever point you want to make and you will walk away scot free.  
This is not the way a democratic country works. Yes, you have the right to protest but you do not have the right to interrupt a person's ability to make a living or to interrupt a countries economy.  
Our PM needs to grow a pair, and do what needs to be done to ensure our countries economy is not adversely affected.

What I don't understand is what they want to accomplish. I love when they interview protestors and ask what is actually going to be transported in the pipeline a lot don't even know. How pathetic is that? Stopping trains and roads. What is that to prove. You block a VIA rail train. Passengers cannot get home as scheduled. Oh the horror that pipeline has on VIA rail. Blocking grain trains, now the farmers are hurt and what correlation do they have with this pipeline? Trains need to transport natural resources via train if pipelines don't get built. What does that solve. Even if Canada said "ok no more harvesting oil or gas from the earth" what is that going to accomplish. Most of the revenue given to First Nations comes from these resources. They drive to these protests using oil. They are dressed in clothing made from oil. The paper and writing supplies are made from oil. Instead of telling me to educate myself (already read the online treaties) or comments like Native Pride and that is it....why not instead of protesting offer solutions? Educate us on green energy that is viable not to rely on oil. Please don't tell me solar panels either. They are only about 60% effective and are still made from oil. This pipeline would reduce harmful emissions from China by using gas vs coal thus protecting so called mother earth. Isn't this why they are protesting is to save the earth? Why contradict yourself?

No matter what he does, it will be the wrong thing. I almost feel bad for him.  
 
Act immediately... heavy handed.  
Wait to act... too permissive, too slow to act.  
 
Enforce the injunctions... suppressing the right to protest.  
Don't enforce... letting them break the law.  
 
Build the pipeline... destroying the environment.  
Don't build the pipeline... destroying the environment.  
 
Agree with the hereditary chiefs... destroying work on reconciliation.  
Agree with the elected chiefs... destroying work on reconciliation.

LIke it all seems like a lot of overkill....you're blocking rail freight, slowing down infrastructure for what? I wish I could click a filter on my tv/google and just flag anything with indigenous/gas/pipeline and block it. We all got problems, but we don't sit down on railway tracks and pout until we get our way.  
 
Edited by Heynow, 2020-02-18 11:20:57

PM Trudeau is definitely over a barrel on this one and I do believe it is a no win situation for him. This is a disaster of his own creation though. He has spent years trying to appease everyone in every room he has walked into. What do you do when you are forced into the middle when you have told both opposing views they are 100% right and will be supported? His simple minded approach to diplomacy has created this but everyone on both sides will suffer.

From my understanding of the situation, this is exactly it. No one seems to know or agree who's in charge. Until there's resolution on that, how do you even being to find a path forward?  
 
I support reconciliation and self-governance, but it's hard to move the reconciliation part forward when there's uncertainty on how the governance parts are supposed to interface and interact.

Can someone advise if there is a universally agreed upon definition of reconciliation? I like the concept of reconciliation unless it is a constantly moving goal post. How can you set a goal if you cannot define it?  
 
Consultation seems to be a primary factor. The problem, as I see it, is that many folks define consultation as garnering 100% approval. This seems unlikely as, noted above, there is great divide between elected band councils and hereditary chiefs.

Trudeau has done nothing but put the wheels of reconcilation in reverse!! He is such an incompetent bafoon. This piece of work has to go. He is incapable of looking after himself, never mind a Country. I cannot believe the sheep that followed this pied piper.....right into bankruptcy. Everything he touches goes to crap. We as Canadians cannot let him or support him anymore. We are going to end up a third world dumping station.

 
 
Edited by Rick999, 2020-02-18 15:21:19

have been high jacked by other protesters that have other agendas besides than the original reason.

follow the money ...Do you see the large , extremely professional signs /flags being carried? nobody whipped them up in their basement . There is serious dollars flowing into keeping canadian resources of any kind from reaching the world market . This goes way beyond the statements being made as reasons for these folks on the picket lines

Could stop the inflow of money from the US that supports this behaviour, we could handle this nonsense a little better. As someone that benefits from the pipeline crossing my land, I doubt there are a lot of landowners complaining about this....so why these people? They get paid VERY well for pipeline activity on their land. I posed this question to the Land Agent when he stopped in to see me regarding the Line 3 replacement Project. He said the amount of money they get to protest is huge. As was earlier mentioned, much of it comes from US oil companies that do not want the competition from Canadian oil. And, he said a lot of money comes from the Hollywood Entertainment Industry. Actors/ entertainers who make millions of $$$ a year send ridiculous amounts of money to support special interest groups, in large part to “raise their own public image” so people will think they are doing something good with their money. As long as they get support from US oil companies and Hollywood, they will picket a long time unless somebody with a backbone steps in.

Maybe the oil and gas industry will stop trying to steal land and stop leaving their old flow lines and pollutives in the ground after they leave. Oil and gas is a tiny part of Canada’s economy and we don’t need the industry. In a few years it will become defunct anyway as we move to alternative energy sources. The industry is legalized land theft and destruction.

Land theft and destruction? I own land with 7 Enbridge lines on some of my land and would like some explanation on that comment.

Are you one of the many that has a great plan for getting themselves off fossil fuel eventually but haven't because it is just not practical at present?

I have experienced personally the underhand, dishonest and bullying tactics that the oil and gas industry uses against land owners. I have seen the destruction caused when oil companies push pasture bush to do their seismic testing and push out well sites. I have personally experienced illegal trespass on my land by oil company employees. I am also aware that these energy companies leave a mess when they abandon well sites and potential pollution issues which the land owner may then be liable to clean up. Most land owners in Canada have no idea what they agree to when they sign leases with energy companies. Take a look on the Manitoba government website at the number of abandoned wells that the tax payer is now on the hook to clean up. This is an industry that needs to clean up its act. Canada cannot pretend to have any environmental credentials given the behaviour and methods employed by Canada’s oil and gas industry. No amount of money will ever persuade me to allow access onto my property for oil exploration without a fight.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-02-18 20:07:01

I appreciate that you have had some bad experiences and completely respect your authority (under law) to not subject your land to the fossil fuel industry. However, I fail to see an 11% share of national GDP as a tiny industry considering the employment that goes along with it. I also think your assertion is legalized land theft is perhaps overblown.  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2020-02-18 20:53:46

I agree we are moving towards alternative energy. In 10 years 75% of new car sales will likely be electric. But Canada's oil industry will be doing well for a long time yet. We will be supplying 3rd world countries with oil for many years yet as they slowly switch. The Pipeline are going to get built, even if it takes 10 years. Currently, we don't have the electrical energy capabilities set up to support the switch transportation to electricity. We will have to move soon... be it nuclear or natural gas because if we don't we will be forced to bring coal back. We are not going to just freeze to death.  
 
I really can't figure out what the problem is with the pipeline. Are we talking about the trans-mountain pipeline? If so... Isn't it twinning an existing line? I mean there is already a line in the ground there. It is not as if they are disturbing, new land??

a natural gas pipeline that the company want's to build.  
 
The elected chief has said yes and has his supporters while the hereditary chief says no along with his supporters. So it really sounds like an internal band dispute and it's the hereditary chief supporters that are blockading and protesting. Then all the other bandwagon protesters joined in to make their own agendas apart of the base protest.  
 
It's more complicated than the PM telling the RCMP to breakup and arrest protesters.

Under the law of Canada a land owner cannot ultimately prevent oil and gas exploration or pipelines on their property, unless said land owner controls the mineral rights which is unusual. If an energy company wanted to drill a well in someone’s backyard in Brandon there would be little that you could do to stop them.  
Energy companies take agricultural land, pay agricultural rates for industrial use and then leave their industrial waste behind when they leave, government and the law protects them and it is wholly wrong. Land and property owners deserve respect.

Agriculture is the biggest industry in Canada. Driven by family owned farms it dwarfs the energy industry.

Those lines are replaced or abandoned will they be removed from your property? Usually old pipelines are cleaned out as best as possible and then plugged at each end. After years of deterioration these abandoned lines can leak pollutants that remain within (it has happened on numerous sites) . In many cases old pipelines and flow lines are not shown on current mapping so no one knows where they are buried. Potentially the surface or land owner could then become liable for clean up having obvious repercussions with ones liability insurance and potential resale value. When lenders realize that they may be lending against an environmental liability they may become less willing to forward loans on that property. Check the number of abandoned well sites in Alberta and the fact that supposedly struggling energy companies are trying to reduce or not even pay rental due on producing well sites (which is illegal). They take agricultural land for industrial use and leave their industrial waste behind. There is strong evidence to suggest that when the surface is disturbed for pipeline installation there can be quite a yield loss upon the disturbed ground that can last for decades.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-02-19 00:52:57

is almost as bad as the farming industry. Chemical residue from spraying and fertilizer run off polluting our lakes and ground water. Not to mention that cattle farms are along the creeks and rivers, polluting every spring run off. Must be no mirrors in some peoples houses.

Most agriculturalists take the care to look after their soil and water ways, reduce the risk of run off and work very hard to use the minimum of sprays and only where needed typically. Most fertilizer is banded into the ground to prevent run off. You forget that we rely on healthy soil and water to make our living. It is not in our interest to use excessive chemicals or fertilizers as in today’s industry with tight margins that would cause us to lose money. Personally I use the service of an independent agronomist to ensure that chemical and fertilizer use is carefully targeted for maximum safe crop benefit and to reduce waste and risk of pollution. Crops are carefully rotated to manage soil nutrients effectively and reduce insect and disease pressure therefore reducing the need for chemical control. My cattle rotationally graze native pasture which is under a conservation agreement and supports five species of rare upland birds among much other flora and fauna. This also benefits the health of the cows greatly and protects biodiversity. Farmers are the original environmentalists.  
It has been proven that most of the phosphorus build up in the Manitoba lakes comes directly from the city of Winnipeg.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-02-19 08:31:55

Farming is the fourth largest industry in Canada. But your right that farming is the leading polluter, it dwarfs the other industries.

The agriculture industry is the largest contributor to Canada’s economy. Government of Canada figures.

So I guess you are no longer buying gasoline or oil for your vehicles.

We are all part of problem. Pointing fingers will not solve anything. We are all participating in polluting our planet, whether we like it or not.  
Even the protestors. Last I checked we all like having warm houses and full fridges.  
 
Just so everyone is aware, it’s a natural gas pipeline not an oil pipeline that is protested.

TLR I have sat back and read how this thread has progressed and have to add support to what FarmerGeorge is stating. You are mistaken with agriculture being the largest polluter please see link attached and you will see while yes it is 4th on list please note percentages and metric tons of waste produced. http://prairieclimatecentre.ca/2018/03/where-do-canadas-greenhouse-gas-emissions-come-from/  
 
Edited by Thummmper, 2020-02-19 09:34:58