Discussions

Sammy how do you not get 8 year olds and 14 year olds are different? Would you let an 8 year old babysit? No. Then why would you let a 14 year old?  
I wipe my toddlers butt, I'm not gonna do that when theyre 14! I breastfeed my toddler. Won't do that what they're 14 either. What age is it appropriate to stop doing those things? Well that's up to me but there is an age when things become different.

Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nikkol said "The way that so many in this thread are playing into the stereotypical norms of rape culture is absolutely staggering.     Never EVER should anyone hear of a child (or adult or ANYONE) being sexually assaulted and immediately ask, "but what was he/she wearing?" ... "was he/she asking for it?" ...     If anyone is sexually assaulted the blame is solely on the one who was unable to control their impulses due to the fact that they obviously have a mental illness.     With points of view like this it is unfortunately obvious why so many suffer in silence rather than face their attacker and take the risk of being blamed and ridiculed for being a victim of someone else's sick and twisted urges. Thus allowing the attacker to continue their predatory ways.     A pre-pubescent child, that above the waist looks like every other pre-pubescent child, was JUST being a kid and should inspire no thought other than that.     And remember to always follow your instincts. Should you see something out of place or see anyone suspicious around children, CALL THE POLICE. " We wouldn't have to worry about predators, because they wouldn't exist. But reality is they are out there and chances are they're going to prey on those that attract their attention, such as a girl at a pool not wearing a top versus a girl at the pool wearing a top. Sure a predator could very well prey on the girl wearing the top, however, I think the chances are higher that the girl not wearing the top would be singled out first. These are children that can't make informed decisions on their own, we the adults need to decide what's best for them and in today's world, though it sucks that we have to, I do feel it's best for their safety to be covered up so as to not attract attention from the wrong sort. If an adult wants to walk around nude that is their choice and I have no issue with that as they are fully aware of anything that could happen, children are innocent and don't understand these things. " The chance of your kid getting abducted by a stranger:     1 in 14 million     The chance of your kid getting hurt playing sports:     1 in 5     Lifetime chance of drowning:     1 in 1,113       Your situation from a statistical point barely exists. " I'm not necessarily discussing abduction or getting hurt playing sports or drowning.     Go look up the statistics on molestation of adolescents, it's high, so high in fact that parents do need to be proactive in preventative measures for their children, whether they are boys or girls.     If you want to see girls topless at the pool then that's your prerogative, but personally, I do not. Enough children are sexually abused as it is without attracting attention to the parts of their body that will one day be sexualized. If and adult wants to take a stand for the sake of equality, that's fine, but let's not start that ball rolling by putting an innocent child at risk. " And I bet if you look at those statistics more closely you will find that those are almost all committed by persons already known to the victim.     I have repeatedly said that sexualization of young girls is reprehensible, but you insist on painting me as a deviant. I have no desire to see young girls at the pool topless, and if they were there I wouldn't actually notice. I don't tend to notice young, prepubescent girls.       Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 12:23:12"

No need to get your panties in a bunch, I wasn't suggesting that you personally would be ogling these topless girls, but simply that you're on the bandwagon that encourages equality between the sexes, including dress codes when at the pool.  
 
Still, the fact is, if ol' dirty minded uncle Jim or cousin Dan sees little Betty Sue at the pool without her top on, they may be inclined to take their fantasies to a level of reality with the little tyke and we sure don't want to encourage that, do we?  
 
Just because most sexual abusers are known to the victim, doesn't mean we need to tempt them further.  
 
*Names used are NOT referring to actual people in any such incidence whatsoever.

You just won't get the point, with you're ideology women shouldn't be allowed to vote or do anything a man can. Equality is equality, whether its at the job or at the pool.  
 
Obviously each parent is responsible for their child and if you feel this way then do what you have to. Stop trying to voice inequality around.

4thepeople said "You just won't get the point, with you're ideology women shouldn't be allowed to vote or do anything a man can. Equality is equality, whether its at the job or at the pool.     Obviously each parent is responsible for their child and if you feel this way then do what you have to. Stop trying to voice inequality around. "

Actually I'm all for us women having the right to vote and having equality in every way shape and form as men.  
 
I also believe in protecting innocent children.  
 
See where it connects there?  
 
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.  
 
There's laws in place to protect children from abusers, however these laws are only put into effect AFTER a child has already been abused A lot of good that does the child victim.  
 
Prevention is always the best medicine.

dueindecember said "Sammy how do you not get 8 year olds and 14 year olds are different? Would you let an 8 year old babysit? No. Then why would you let a 14 year old?   I wipe my toddlers butt, I'm not gonna do that when theyre 14! I breastfeed my toddler. Won't do that what they're 14 either. What age is it appropriate to stop doing those things? Well that's up to me but there is an age when things become different. "

People were saying that breasts aren't sexual and that both men and women have them and that if one gender can go topless than the other gender should be allowed to as well.  
 
So if that's the case, than a 14 year should be able to do so as well, just like the 8 year old.  
 
My point is that I do believe men and women's bodies ARE different and that means covering up different areas....at any age.  

I hope people don't get upset about this comment but in a way I have to laugh at the idea of all the pedophiles that could be a danger to a young topless girl. I can sort of remember back to when I was going through puberty and I'm sort of thinking that the greatest threat likely comes from horny young guys at about her own age.

Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nikkol said "The way that so many in this thread are playing into the stereotypical norms of rape culture is absolutely staggering.     Never EVER should anyone hear of a child (or adult or ANYONE) being sexually assaulted and immediately ask, "but what was he/she wearing?" ... "was he/she asking for it?" ...     If anyone is sexually assaulted the blame is solely on the one who was unable to control their impulses due to the fact that they obviously have a mental illness.     With points of view like this it is unfortunately obvious why so many suffer in silence rather than face their attacker and take the risk of being blamed and ridiculed for being a victim of someone else's sick and twisted urges. Thus allowing the attacker to continue their predatory ways.     A pre-pubescent child, that above the waist looks like every other pre-pubescent child, was JUST being a kid and should inspire no thought other than that.     And remember to always follow your instincts. Should you see something out of place or see anyone suspicious around children, CALL THE POLICE. " We wouldn't have to worry about predators, because they wouldn't exist. But reality is they are out there and chances are they're going to prey on those that attract their attention, such as a girl at a pool not wearing a top versus a girl at the pool wearing a top. Sure a predator could very well prey on the girl wearing the top, however, I think the chances are higher that the girl not wearing the top would be singled out first. These are children that can't make informed decisions on their own, we the adults need to decide what's best for them and in today's world, though it sucks that we have to, I do feel it's best for their safety to be covered up so as to not attract attention from the wrong sort. If an adult wants to walk around nude that is their choice and I have no issue with that as they are fully aware of anything that could happen, children are innocent and don't understand these things. " The chance of your kid getting abducted by a stranger:     1 in 14 million     The chance of your kid getting hurt playing sports:     1 in 5     Lifetime chance of drowning:     1 in 1,113       Your situation from a statistical point barely exists. " I'm not necessarily discussing abduction or getting hurt playing sports or drowning.     Go look up the statistics on molestation of adolescents, it's high, so high in fact that parents do need to be proactive in preventative measures for their children, whether they are boys or girls.     If you want to see girls topless at the pool then that's your prerogative, but personally, I do not. Enough children are sexually abused as it is without attracting attention to the parts of their body that will one day be sexualized. If and adult wants to take a stand for the sake of equality, that's fine, but let's not start that ball rolling by putting an innocent child at risk. " And I bet if you look at those statistics more closely you will find that those are almost all committed by persons already known to the victim.     I have repeatedly said that sexualization of young girls is reprehensible, but you insist on painting me as a deviant. I have no desire to see young girls at the pool topless, and if they were there I wouldn't actually notice. I don't tend to notice young, prepubescent girls.       Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 12:23:12" No need to get your panties in a bunch, I wasn't suggesting that you personally would be ogling these topless girls, but simply that you're on the bandwagon that encourages equality between the sexes, including dress codes when at the pool.     Still, the fact is, if ol' dirty minded uncle Jim or cousin Dan sees little Betty Sue at the pool without her top on, they may be inclined to take their fantasies to a level of reality with the little tyke and we sure don't want to encourage that, do we?     Just because most sexual abusers are known to the victim, doesn't mean we need to tempt them further.     *Names used are NOT referring to actual people in any such incidence whatsoever. " I'll tell you what, let's let the evidence decide.     It is not uncommon on European beaches for women of almost any age to go topless (it varies from country to country, I'm not talking about nude beaches either). You find me statistics that show that in countries that have allowed female toplessness on the beach to happen, that incidents of pedophilia have went up in those countries. Show me proof and I will concede your point.     Right now you're making wild conjectures with nothing to back it up...       ============     BTW, if you suspect that Dan or Jim are a bit creepy, stop inviting them over whether or not the kids are swimming...       Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 13:15:00"

..however, women are often shamed into not talking about the sexual abuse they endured. Judges often dismiss their cases against their sexual abusers, and their families often shun them for suggesting that any sexual molestation ever occurred. So unfortunately the statistics will be very skewed.  
 
What I do know, as a woman, is that pretty much every woman I know and many men also, have endured sexual abuse in their life, most of them endured this as a child, and most of these victims have expressed that they know many others that have also endured abuse, so I know it occurs in our society, and often.  
 
If you are oblivious to this, consider yourself and your Loved ones very lucky.  
 
And please, don't tempt fate with anyone you hold dear. It's truly not worth it.

..Dan and jim are typically the ones you trust the most with your kids. Just sayin'.  
 
You usually would never suspect the ones that do the deed.  
 
It never ever hurts to be careful. It could be devastating if you're not. Maybe not to you personally, but to the life of a child who would live with the effects for a lifetime.

I like that...... Proof would be nice, but not going to happen.  
 
GreenDragon I hate to say it but it's people like you and a few others in this thread that make nothing into something.  
 
You're probably scared of everything in this world.  
 
 
 
Edited by 4thepeople, 2015-06-25 13:23:46

What is common practice in another country and what is accepted their has absolutely nothing to do with what we as a society do here in our country.  
 
Many countries allow for all sorts of things - where do we draw the line in establishing our own culture and morality?  
 
Regardless of what is common in Europe, we are in Canada and in Canada it is NOT common practice for women and girls to go topless, even if it is allowed legally. Someone else said, 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should' and I agree 100%.  
 
It is NOT common for 8 year old girls to go topless anywhere, it isn't even common in North America for 5 year olds to go topless so why would you want to turn your daughter into a spectacle just because the law says you can? That is what I do not understand about his thread or this story - the motivation behind it. The price of this outrage and 15 minutes of notoriety is an 8 year old being showcased as a martyr. 8 year olds are kids, not political activists and shouldn't be used in that way - in ANY way.

YOU"RE MAKING THEM INTO A SPECTACLE WHEN NO ONE CARES.

Nordberg said "    Butterflymbca said "What is common practice in another country and what is accepted their has absolutely nothing to do with what we as a society do here in our country.     Many countries allow for all sorts of things - where do we draw the line in establishing our own culture and morality?     Regardless of what is common in Europe, we are in Canada and in Canada it is NOT common practice for women and girls to go topless, even if it is allowed legally. Someone else said, 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should' and I agree 100%.     It is NOT common for 8 year old girls to go topless anywhere, it isn't even common in North America for 5 year olds to go topless so why would you want to turn your daughter into a spectacle just because the law says you can? That is what I do not understand about his thread or this story - the motivation behind it. The price of this outrage and 15 minutes of notoriety is an 8 year old being showcased as a martyr. 8 year olds are kids, not political activists and shouldn't be used in that way - in ANY way. " You make this about the parents because it suits you.     They were concerned because their daughter thought she was in trouble. She probably thought the police might come. Kids are funny that way. She didn't understand why adults were freaking out about her body when it looked just like her brothers'. Luckily she has good parents and they will tell her that some people have strange hangups.     She did nothing wrong, all she wanted to do was play in the water. It is the City of Guelph and people like you who made this even become an incident, ridiculous because the City of Guelph should know the law better than any other city on Ontario. "

The one at fault here is the guardian of that 8 year old girl at the time she was topless in the pool. The adult should be aware of the rules and abide by them. Because of the adult's thoughtlessness this child has had to endure upset and embarrassment.  
 
Put the blame where it should be instead of instigating an argument.  
 
The rules of the pool are in place to protect all the children and it is illegal to break these rules.  
 
Follow the law, abide by the rules,and respect our differences and life will go smoothly.

GreenDragon said "    Nordberg said "    Butterflymbca said "What is common practice in another country and what is accepted their has absolutely nothing to do with what we as a society do here in our country.     Many countries allow for all sorts of things - where do we draw the line in establishing our own culture and morality?     Regardless of what is common in Europe, we are in Canada and in Canada it is NOT common practice for women and girls to go topless, even if it is allowed legally. Someone else said, 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should' and I agree 100%.     It is NOT common for 8 year old girls to go topless anywhere, it isn't even common in North America for 5 year olds to go topless so why would you want to turn your daughter into a spectacle just because the law says you can? That is what I do not understand about his thread or this story - the motivation behind it. The price of this outrage and 15 minutes of notoriety is an 8 year old being showcased as a martyr. 8 year olds are kids, not political activists and shouldn't be used in that way - in ANY way. " You make this about the parents because it suits you.     They were concerned because their daughter thought she was in trouble. She probably thought the police might come. Kids are funny that way. She didn't understand why adults were freaking out about her body when it looked just like her brothers'. Luckily she has good parents and they will tell her that some people have strange hangups.     She did nothing wrong, all she wanted to do was play in the water. It is the City of Guelph and people like you who made this even become an incident, ridiculous because the City of Guelph should know the law better than any other city on Ontario. " The one at fault here is the guardian of that 8 year old girl at the time she was topless in the pool. The adult should be aware of the rules and abide by them. Because of the adult's thoughtlessness this child has had to endure upset and embarrassment.     Put the blame where it should be instead of instigating an argument.     The rules of the pool are in place to protect all the children and it is illegal to break these rules.     Follow the law, abide by the rules,and respect our differences and life will go smoothly. "

Well as for the law, it's legal. As for the pool rules, show me where it is posted that women have to wear tops, if it is posted then someone theoretically could sue them for inequality.

Nordberg said "    Butterflymbca said "What is common practice in another country and what is accepted their has absolutely nothing to do with what we as a society do here in our country.     Many countries allow for all sorts of things - where do we draw the line in establishing our own culture and morality?     Regardless of what is common in Europe, we are in Canada and in Canada it is NOT common practice for women and girls to go topless, even if it is allowed legally. Someone else said, 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should' and I agree 100%.     It is NOT common for 8 year old girls to go topless anywhere, it isn't even common in North America for 5 year olds to go topless so why would you want to turn your daughter into a spectacle just because the law says you can? That is what I do not understand about his thread or this story - the motivation behind it. The price of this outrage and 15 minutes of notoriety is an 8 year old being showcased as a martyr. 8 year olds are kids, not political activists and shouldn't be used in that way - in ANY way. " You make this about the parents because it suits you.     They were concerned because their daughter thought she was in trouble. She probably thought the police might come. Kids are funny that way. She didn't understand why adults were freaking out about her body when it looked just like her brothers'. Luckily she has good parents and they will tell her that some people have strange hangups.     She did nothing wrong, all she wanted to do was play in the water. It is the City of Guelph and people like you who made this even become an incident, ridiculous because the City of Guelph should know the law better than any other city on Ontario. "

She is 8. If you are trying to convince anyone that an 8 year old doesn't get that she is different than a boy and is completely oblivious to the fact that she was the only girl without a top, you are either gullible or naive.  
 
Your definition of a 'good parent' and mine are completely different apparently.  
 
Do you let your 8 year old daughter run around topless? Are you ok with it? Playing basketball in the school yard - would you be ok with her playing on the skins team when she was the only girl doing so? Will your 8 year old be at the splashparks this weekend topless? Will you?  
 
Politics and debate are fine - if you are willing to back up your position with action, if not - it is just a bunch of hot air and internet muscles.

How does that define a "good parent" hahaha... you're foolish. Here is the Canadian law so that it is clear, you do what you want with you're children and don't accuse people if they are more liberal and comfortable with their bodies.  
 
 
Law  
In Canada, the law on public decency is found in Sections 173 and 174 of the Criminal Code.[2] However, what constitutes an indecent act is not defined, and is open to interpretation by the courts.  
 
In 1991, toplessness as an indecent act was challenged by Gwen Jacob in Guelph, Ontario, who removed her shirt and was charged with indecency. Part of her defense was the double standards between men and women. Although she was convicted, this was overturned by the Court of Appeal. This case determined that being topless is not indecent within the meaning of the Criminal Code. However, it did not establish any constitutional right of equality. This case subsequently led to the acquittal of women in British Columbia and Saskatchewan who faced similar charges. Although each Province and Territory technically reserves its right to interpret the law as it pleases, the Ontario case has proved influential. Since the matter has not been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada, it is still possible that a woman could be convicted elsewhere in Canada, but interpretation of moral law in Canada has become increasingly liberalised.[1] There do not appear to have been any further women charged in Canada since these cases were decided.

4thepeople said "How does that define a "good parent" hahaha... you're foolish. Here is the Canadian law so that it is clear, you do what you want with you're children and don't accuse people if they are more liberal and comfortable with their bodies.       Law   In Canada, the law on public decency is found in Sections 173 and 174 of the Criminal Code.[2] However, what constitutes an indecent act is not defined, and is open to interpretation by the courts.     In 1991, toplessness as an indecent act was challenged by Gwen Jacob in Guelph, Ontario, who removed her shirt and was charged with indecency. Part of her defense was the double standards between men and women. Although she was convicted, this was overturned by the Court of Appeal. This case determined that being topless is not indecent within the meaning of the Criminal Code. However, it did not establish any constitutional right of equality. This case subsequently led to the acquittal of women in British Columbia and Saskatchewan who faced similar charges. Although each Province and Territory technically reserves its right to interpret the law as it pleases, the Ontario case has proved influential. Since the matter has not been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada, it is still possible that a woman could be convicted elsewhere in Canada, but interpretation of moral law in Canada has become increasingly liberalised.[1] There do not appear to have been any further women charged in Canada since these cases were decided. "

I don't care what the law in Guelph says. It is NOT a common practice to have girls go topless and in doing so they are being displayed and made a spectacle.  
 
Any parent that would do that to their child to prove a point, further an agenda or just because they are ignorant or dismissive of social practice is irresponsible IMO. No different than the reality TV shows where parents use their children as commodities to make a buck - shameful.  
 
keep arguing the court ruling all you want - isn't going to change society over night and until it is a commonly accepted practice, my child will not be the topless poster-girl for public nudity and any parent willing to do that to their own should have their head or at least their motives questioned.

Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "    Nordberg said "    Butterflymbca said "What is common practice in another country and what is accepted their has absolutely nothing to do with what we as a society do here in our country.     Many countries allow for all sorts of things - where do we draw the line in establishing our own culture and morality?     Regardless of what is common in Europe, we are in Canada and in Canada it is NOT common practice for women and girls to go topless, even if it is allowed legally. Someone else said, 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should' and I agree 100%.     It is NOT common for 8 year old girls to go topless anywhere, it isn't even common in North America for 5 year olds to go topless so why would you want to turn your daughter into a spectacle just because the law says you can? That is what I do not understand about his thread or this story - the motivation behind it. The price of this outrage and 15 minutes of notoriety is an 8 year old being showcased as a martyr. 8 year olds are kids, not political activists and shouldn't be used in that way - in ANY way. " You make this about the parents because it suits you.     They were concerned because their daughter thought she was in trouble. She probably thought the police might come. Kids are funny that way. She didn't understand why adults were freaking out about her body when it looked just like her brothers'. Luckily she has good parents and they will tell her that some people have strange hangups.     She did nothing wrong, all she wanted to do was play in the water. It is the City of Guelph and people like you who made this even become an incident, ridiculous because the City of Guelph should know the law better than any other city on Ontario. " The one at fault here is the guardian of that 8 year old girl at the time she was topless in the pool. The adult should be aware of the rules and abide by them. Because of the adult's thoughtlessness this child has had to endure upset and embarrassment.     Put the blame where it should be instead of instigating an argument.     The rules of the pool are in place to protect all the children and it is illegal to break these rules.     Follow the law, abide by the rules,and respect our differences and life will go smoothly. " One more time...     It is not against the law in the Province of Ontario for a female of any age to be in a public place where men are allowed to be topless. The Ontario Court of Appeal decided this 19 years ago. IN GUELPH!     Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?     So... Follow the law, abide by the rules,and respect our differences and life will go smoothly.             Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 13:57:27"

Is there a fence separating this pool from the rest of the area? Do you have to pay money to enter the premises? Oh you do?! Well then, they have their own set of rules that have to be abided by and it's usually posted that proper swimsuit attire is worn in the pool.

but I really can't grasp you're point of view, motives? poster girl? hahaha.  
 
Someone must not be comfortable with their own body and have to reflect this on there children, which is fine.  
 
In reality, no one cares if children are topless, there are no differences.  
 
Older women can when they want to because they have equal rights and obviously want to make women like you jealous.

4thepeople - you just lost all credibility with me and anyone following this discussion who knows me. I have NO jealousy issues, I actually teach female empowerment and have taught burlesque dance for years showing women how to embrace and love their bodies and sensuality. Assuming that I am insecure about my own body because I do not want my 8 year old to go topless is ludicrous and the last resort of someone with no defense to their position so they resort to personal attacks.  
 
Nordberg - I will defend a women's rights as hard as anyone but when it comes to my children, tables turn. Come back to this discussion when you have an 8 year old daughter.

Yes she was singled out. I can only guess that it was for her own safety, and for the safety of the other minors in the pool. It is currently common knowledge to assume that girls bathing suits cover their tops and bottoms whereas boys bathing suits cover bottoms only. There may be such a time in the future that gender neutral swimsuits are sold in stores and worn as the norm. But that time is not now. Right now, any child doing so COULD be opening themselves up to unnecessary bullying, shaming, teasing, and abuse. I don't want to see a child go through that. Do you? Maybe we should start the equality argument with adults first, not children. Not in practice anyway.

Butterflymbca said "4thepeople - you just lost all credibility with me and anyone following this discussion who knows me. I have NO jealousy issues, I actually teach female empowerment and have taught burlesque dance for years showing women how to embrace and love their bodies and sensuality. Assuming that I am insecure about my own body because I do not want my 8 year old to go topless is ludicrous and the last resort of someone with no defense to their position so they resort to personal attacks.     Nordberg - I will defend a women's rights as hard as anyone but when it comes to my children, tables turn. Come back to this discussion when you have an 8 year old daughter. "

I don't care what you think of me ButterflyBurlesque, i'm defending the rights of women of any age. Obviously you do what you want with you're children and keep voting Harper. In the end parent's will parent their own children and you will parent you'res.  
 
You have no right to determine that someone else is a "bad parent" because they are more liberal and can realize that they are children not nude poster images.  
 
 
Edited by 4thepeople, 2015-06-25 14:43:52

Nordberg said "My spouse just asked an interesting question:     [i]What if this girl doesn't identify as a female, but identifies male, gender-neutral, or other. Would it be okay then?[/i]     Many transgender individuals start to identify early in life, often well before puberty. How would you handle the situation then? Would it be okay for the parents to advocate then? Why is the gender assignment of this girl so important to complete strangers that they insist that she cover up? "

And deserves its own thread.  
 
For these children I believe they should be getting medical assistance in the way of hormone treatments coupled with counselling to help them be confident that their outward appearance matches who they are inside. In this instance girls that feel trapped in a boy body should wear bathing suit tops and bottoms and boys trapped in a girl body should wear only bottoms, though with medical help, if it were advanced to that level, would be able to alter the shape of children's bodies so that they match the gender they feel they are. This isn't even doable yet. All in good time, in the future. Right now would not be the time to start because the child would be opening themselves up to potential harm.  
 
My little girls body sure doesn't look like a little boys body. She needs to cover up, even at a pre pubescent age. Predators don't care who the child feels they are inside, they only care about what the kids appearance is, which is why we need to cover our children appropriately to protect them.

You're first paragraph makes no sense and i'm not going to waste time trying to comprehend what you said.  
 
As for you're little girl if you feel the need, then please do, no one is trying to tell you not to. All were saying is that if certain parents feel differently about the subject then respect they're point of view and don't make they're child into a spectacle when they do.

I'm sickened to even acknowledge you posts as I don't agree with a thing you've said through this entire conversation, but disregarding that, I feel you've made an erroneous point.  
 
This is not about making a spectacle of someone elses child.  
 
What right do parents have to make a choice for their minor child that could open them up to bullying, shaming, and abuse? It should NOT be the parents choice, that's what. No child should be dressed inappropriately in today's society. When the child reaches an age of maturity they can decide on their own how much skin they want to bare, the parent should not have precedence over their child's body in this manner. End of story.

Nordberg said "    Butterflymbca said "4thepeople - you just lost all credibility with me and anyone following this discussion who knows me. I have NO jealousy issues, I actually teach female empowerment and have taught burlesque dance for years showing women how to embrace and love their bodies and sensuality. Assuming that I am insecure about my own body because I do not want my 8 year old to go topless is ludicrous and the last resort of someone with no defense to their position so they resort to personal attacks.     Nordberg - I will defend a women's rights as hard as anyone but when it comes to my children, tables turn. Come back to this discussion when you have an 8 year old daughter. " Here's the thing about rights, you don't get to pick and choose.     I will defend the rights of anyone I see getting their rights attacked. You do not get to decide who has the right to have an opinion. I've lost any respect for you that I may have had.     I do not understand how someone can consider themselves a role model for female empowerment and then attack an 8 year old girl's right to choose her own clothing.     You're a walking, breathing contradiction.     Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 14:36:43"

You think I am attacking an 8 year old's right to choose her clothing? THAT is how you see this?  
 
Not in the least. I am definitely questioning the parents of an 8 year old girl that will not only allow but argue for and defend their decision to allow their child to go topless.  
 
She is 8 - even if it WAS her decision, it is a parent:s responsibility to guide her and this decision put her in a position no 8 year old could comprehend let alone defend.

Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "I'm sickened to even acknowledge you posts as I don't agree with a thing you've said through this entire conversation, but disregarding that, I feel you've made an erroneous point.     This is not about making a spectacle of someone elses child.     What right do parents have to make a choice for their minor child that could open them up to bullying, shaming, and abuse? It should NOT be the parents choice, that's what. No child should be dressed inappropriately in today's society. When the child reaches an age of maturity they can decide on their own how much skin they want to bare, the parent should not have precedence over their child's body in this manner. End of story. " So the child cannot make the choice.     The parents aren't allowed to allow the child to make the choice.     So, the parent doesn't have a choice, the child doesn't, but you do? You, a complete stranger to the child? Sounds like you are stacking the deck in favour of your opinion.     ===================     Of course this is about making a spectacle about someone else's child. This whole thread is about someone else's child. If it wasn't for people with your opinion, this little girl would be at home with good memories about her day in the water. Instead, because 8 year old female chests get you all freaking incensed, it's become a national story and so far a four page eBrandon debate.     Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-25 15:20:41"

For the safety of the children in todays society they need to be covered up until they reach an age of maturity and can decide on their own.  
 
Goodness children need more rights in this world.  
 

You're a plain fool, you and ButterflyBurlesque are the type of people that make non issues into issues, like Nordberg said, if no one said anything, nothing would of happened and the girl would of gone home happy without incident.  
 
We as parents have the right to parent our children, not other's. IF ITS FOR SAFETY COVER UP THE BOYS TOO. Children should not be embarrassed because of people like you that think its "inappropriate" just because of the gender of the individual with no physical difference.

After I posted that I wondered if this is the manner in which you would respond. I'm disheartened to see it.  
 
Children's rights are made by an advocate(s) for children that speak on their behalf for the benefit and safety of them all.  
 
It is (or should be) a child's right to be appropriately clothed for today's society to safeguard their person from ridicule, shame and the potential for abuse until such a time when she/he can make an informed decision.  
 
 
The evidence is common sense.

If there was one word in the English language that would best describe you GreenDragon, it would be CONTRADICTING. You're all over the place, you say children need more rights then you think you should decide what's right for all children?  
 
Again show the evidence that a topless child is more at risk than not so, why do people live in Europe if there is such risk?  
 
Maybe you're common sense is just stupid and you have no idea what you're talking about... Also please don't vote this year because my common sense say's you shouldn't.  
 
 

Nordberg said "    GreenDragon said "After I posted that I wondered if this is the manner in which you would respond. I'm disheartened to see it.     Children's rights are made by an advocate(s) for children that speak on their behalf for the benefit and safety of them all.     It is (or should be) a child's right to be appropriately clothed for today's society to safeguard their person from ridicule, shame and the potential for abuse until such a time when she/he can make an informed decision.       The evidence is common sense. " Yes, how dare I have an enlightened opinion that differs from yours.     The only reason that a child would need to be sheltered from ridicule and shame would be because of attitudes such as yours. You are the problem.     And you still haven't demonstrated how a young girl going top-free is inherently dangerous. "

A young girl going top-free is inherently dangerous because she would be an easy and likely target for sexual abuse from a peer or adult that is viewing her displayed sexual parts. Even if she hasn't hit puberty yet.