Discussions

Unvaxxed ?

HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

It sure would be nice
1/12/2022 at 8:55 AM

If we could get a breakdown of current hospital numbers and breakdown by vaccination status.
Irie Mon
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 368

Irie Mon
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 368

I Don't Get It?
1/12/2022 at 9:11 AM

Rick999 said "I am not opposed to these vaccinations. I see the help they are doing, but here in Canada we are and still should be free to make these decisions. I am a strong believer in " home of the free". People before us have given a lot more to see that we have and maintain these freedoms to choose. We should not bash the "unvaxxed" anymore than we should not bash a person for different religious beliefs or different skin color. Currently in the US this decision to force vaccination is with the Supreme Court as an infringement on a peoples rights and freedoms. I hope our Governments, local and Federal are watching this closely. "
I don't get it. We are forced to get out of bed 5 days a week because we have to get to work. We are forced to stop at that stop sign down the road and forced to stop at that red light. We are forced to do work and to have lunch at a certain time. We are forced not to murder our neighbor because he stole my rake, and we are forced to love our mother-in-law. But when we are forced to have a vaccine that will re-start the country and save thousands of lives, nope!! You can't tell me what to do!! I just don't get it.
Spades!!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1224

Spades!!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1224

The Land of the Self-Entitled....
1/12/2022 at 3:46 PM

The following blows my mind.

Hiding behind the constitution as a an excuse to not get vaccinated. Our Charter of Rights entitles us to make our own life choices in regard to lifestyle, education, provision of health care etc. The Charter of Rights does not entitle us to do what we want at the expense of another person's life choices or safety. It is the responsibility of those governing bodies to ensure rules and regulations are in place to protect everyone. It is the individual's responsibility to respect those rules and regulations. Those people disregarding regulations are living a life of blatant self entitlement.

The same goes for people hiding behind their religion to stay unvaxxed. Most religious preach love and kindness for your fellow human being. So why would you stay unvaxxed and increase the rate of covid spreading, contribute to full hospital beds that should be used for people who are requiring surgery or other health care procedures. Selfish people who hid behind religion are hypocrites of the highest order.

To the people who proclaim the cure is worse than the disease, that we should open up the economy, let people go about their normal lives. Mean while covid is spreading at a higher rate never before seen in recorded history. How will the economy function if opened up and the incidence of sickness increases at a rate causing stores to close because there are no healthy staff to man the stores. Oh well there likely is nothing in the stores anyways because the shipping companies and drivers are sick and there is no one to deliver goods to communities. Then there is no health care services available because hospitals staffing shortages caused because more and more hospital staff (medical staff, Kitchen staff, cleaning and laundry staff, maintenance) are off sick and there is no one to prepare meals, maintain sanitation, equipment operation etc etc. Schools close because the teachers are all sick. Oh well probably no students to teach anyways because they are all sick too.

The utter stupidity of people is mind blowing!
sammy
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8749

sammy
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8749

irie mon
1/12/2022 at 4:57 PM

I’m with ya! I don’t get it either. There are plenty of rules we have to abide by to live in a functioning society. Why are vaccines any different?

I sort of compare unvaxxed to driving while intoxicated. Sure you might make it home safely but there’s a risk that you’ll crash and kill yourself or another person. Was it worth it to drive drunk? Was your “right”/want to do something in public that is dangerous more important than someone’s safety? Someone’s life? Do what you want on your own property but when you put the public at risk, shouldn’t there be consequences?

Religious people are supposed to care about others, are they not? I don’t get it. I believe some are actually anti-vax but I feel like many are anti-govt and will not get vaxxed because they don’t want to be told what to do…even if it does mean it will keep them and others safer

I really don’t know if there is any hope of educating some of them
rogercsr2007
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 261

rogercsr2007
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 261

Quebec
1/12/2022 at 5:32 PM

Wonder if Manitoba will follow suit? TAX THE UNVACCINATED! Sounds like a lot of people would love this to happen. Thousands of First Dose Appointment’s have been made since the announcement.
houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

houriete22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 43

I suppose
1/12/2022 at 7:03 PM

I do suppose that the human rights could implement a vaccination policy that infringes on religious freedoms for the sake of protecting everyone's health right? Or, how would the infringement be justified? Bills are always being passed for either purposes so I don't see why it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited by houriete22, 2022-01-12 19:05:43
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Actually
1/12/2022 at 7:11 PM

rogercsr2007 said "Wonder if Manitoba will follow suit? TAX THE UNVACCINATED! Sounds like a lot of people would love this to happen. Thousands of First Dose Appointment’s have been made since the announcement. "
Actually, I believe it was the announcement that you would need to be vaxxed to step into a liquor store or cannabis dispensary that did that. The tax was only announced yesterday and first doses have been doing brisk business for a few days now.
rogercsr2007
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 261

rogercsr2007
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 261

correct
1/12/2022 at 7:28 PM

Ya they announced the vaccine mandate for cannabis and liquor sales last week and thousands of 1st dose appts were made. Then yesterday they announced they are looking at taxing the unvaccinated and this morning they said thousands of first dose appts were made. Sounds like their movement can be altered with some more mandates!
Gumby
Joined: This month
Posts: 877

Gumby
Joined: This month
Posts: 877

Unvaxxed
1/12/2022 at 8:02 PM

There was a case of an older gentleman in the Austin area that was an antivaxxer and came down with Covid, got very sick and had to go to the hospital. The hospital wanted to do a Covid test and the old guy refused to do one, without the test they had nothing to go on to diagnose him with. He refused to take doctor's advice and left the hospital. Went home and passed away a few days later.

His life insurance was declared invalid because he refused medical help. Bet his family wish now he'd have taken the jab....
mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

Dr John Campbell
1/12/2022 at 10:47 PM

A calm approach to analyzing Covid data globally. Looking at how Omocron affects other countries allows others to gauge the effects that will happen elsewhere. Dr. Campbell is an expert at analyzing data/papers and presents the information in a way that is clear and concise. He is neither right nor left. He's pro vaccine, but displays absolutely no political leaning which is wonderful these days. With Omicron, his message is one of hope regarding his findings. In this video he touches on the data regarding "natural immunity" and how "Omicron" is providing it. The evidence is overwhelming that "natural immunity" is very strong. The potential "silver lining" of "Omicron". I tune into his youtube channel for his daily update on where Covid is headed. He's brilliant!
https://youtu.be/TrVGymR-jFU

Edited by mudman, 2022-01-12 23:01:02
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

With/due to
1/12/2022 at 11:35 PM

Speaking more to the split in hospitalizations and nature of cases, there's an excellent little community of Manitoba-based docs and epedemiologists on Twitter that often give very valuable (and at times refreshingly candid) perspectives on the ongoing pandemic. Embedding a series of tweets below that were posted by one MB doc today that explain why one can't just break it down into rigidly defined with Covid/due to Covid.

The Admitted “with COVID” vs “due to COVID” is a false flag:

1/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

It minimizes the impact on patients who become infected with COVID after they are admitted. ie: already sick and get COVID on top. This often has dire consequences. In fact All patients in hospital with COVID require extra resources regardless due to infection control needs

2/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

It is also difficult to distinguish.
For example, COVID triggers clots, so heart attacks, strokes, other blood clot associated illnesses could be the diagnosis of record, but be in fact caused by COVID.

3/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

So the “with” vs “from” distinction means little. They all need medical care. It is intended to distract us from governmental failures and make the current wave seem les severe.

So @MBGov let’s stop the nonsense and start being honest.

4/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

If they're going to minimize the Covid hospitalization stat and case count data is going to be less valuable with reduced testing, gov IMO really at least owes it to Manitobans to publicize a daily breakdown of system bed counts vs available bed counts by region. From reading tweets from docs in the Manitoba medical community it's clear that there are a lot of concerns about state of the medical system as this wave progresses that weren't fully represented at today's press conference. Having that data would be an important step towards transparency and trust that any gov should aspire to.
Indadumps
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 91

Indadumps
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 91

How?
1/13/2022 at 9:24 AM

HopeI'mWrong said "If we could get a breakdown of current hospital numbers and breakdown by vaccination status. "
How can you get these numbers accurately when the health minister announced yesterday that only 1/3 of hospitalizations that were reported, were actually due to covid? These are the numbers used for mandates and to promote vaccines. Now they admit the numbers were inflated by 66%. Wow!
Spades!!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1224

Spades!!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1224

?unrealistic expectations?
1/13/2022 at 9:36 AM

I wonder if the average person really understands the work and details involved in collecting all these statistics. Healthcare is an extremely complex system that relies on multiple levels to accurately and in a timely fashion report the data you are all expecting. There are multiple steps where mistakes can happen that are totally out of the control of any manager or at levels higher up. The higher up you go the less control they have and they rely on the integrity and accuracy of the people at lower levels and on the frontline.
Yet we expect perfection at all corners.
I can appreciate the work done to date and can understand why it’s time for people to get back to focusing on their real job not just covid. That healthcare at all levels and the government has been hand holding the public much more than the public may realize. It is time for individuals to take responsibility for staying safe regardless what the numbers are.
Remember it is very easy to criticize when you are outside the system.
Indadumps
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 91

Indadumps
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 91

DR. HIEBERT
1/13/2022 at 9:56 AM

Adam said "
Speaking more to the split in hospitalizations and nature of cases, there's an excellent little community of Manitoba-based docs and epedemiologists on Twitter that often give very valuable (and at times refreshingly candid) perspectives on the ongoing pandemic. Embedding a series of tweets below that were posted by one MB doc today that explain why one can't just break it down into rigidly defined with Covid/due to Covid.

The Admitted “with COVID” vs “due to COVID” is a false flag:

1/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

It minimizes the impact on patients who become infected with COVID after they are admitted. ie: already sick and get COVID on top. This often has dire consequences. In fact All patients in hospital with COVID require extra resources regardless due to infection control needs

2/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

It is also difficult to distinguish.
For example, COVID triggers clots, so heart attacks, strokes, other blood clot associated illnesses could be the diagnosis of record, but be in fact caused by COVID.

3/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

So the “with” vs “from” distinction means little. They all need medical care. It is intended to distract us from governmental failures and make the current wave seem les severe.

So @MBGov let’s stop the nonsense and start being honest.

4/4
— Tim Hiebert (@Dr_Tim_MD) January 13, 2022

If they're going to minimize the Covid hospitalization stat and case count data is going to be less valuable with reduced testing, gov IMO really at least owes it to Manitobans to publicize a daily breakdown of system bed counts vs available bed counts by region. From reading tweets from docs in the Manitoba medical community it's clear that there are a lot of concerns about state of the medical system as this wave progresses that weren't fully represented at today's press conference. Having that data would be an important step towards transparency and trust that any gov should aspire to.
"
For him to say that it is just a distraction is wrong. A woman who is in hospital to give birth but tests positive with covid is not a covid hospitalization. she is not taking up an extra bed due to covid, or even being treated for it. A man who has gall bladder surgery but tests positive for covid while in recovery is not a covid hospitalization.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Credentials
1/13/2022 at 10:05 AM

Indadumps said "For him to say that it is just a distraction is wrong. A woman who is in hospital to give birth but tests positive with covid is not a covid hospitalization. she is not taking up an extra bed due to covid, or even being treated for it. A man who has gall bladder surgery but tests positive for covid while in recovery is not a covid hospitalization. "
What are your medical credentials to disagree with the assessment of a doctor in Manitoba on a topic relating to health care?

Same doc retweeted this one as a more detailed explanation. Please click. Please read. Please consider that those speaking to the medical side of this know more than you or I about medicine and health care, please consider that they may be speaking factually and that any opinions will be coming from a foundation of a much better understanding of the big picture than you or I:
uD83DuDEA8I wrote about the debate about whether people are being hospitalized &quot:for COVID&quot: or just &quot:with COVID&quot:.

Many supposedly &#39:incidental&#39: infections are being misleadingly described &amp: minimized.

And whatever the case, hospitals are in serious trouble 1/https://t.co/4UezZPNvdO
&mdash: Ed Yong (@edyong209) January 12, 2022
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Distractions?
1/13/2022 at 10:22 AM

Indadumps said "For him to say that it is just a distraction is wrong. A woman who is in hospital to give birth but tests positive with covid is not a covid hospitalization. she is not taking up an extra bed due to covid, or even being treated for it. A man who has gall bladder surgery but tests positive for covid while in recovery is not a covid hospitalization. "
I don't think anyone is arguing that your examples doesn't happen. What the argument is, is that they shouldn't be lumped into the more complex "with Covid" cases, which accounts for the overwhelming majority of "with Covid".

From https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/for-covid-with-covid-hospitals-are-mess-either-way/621229/

"But the “with COVID” hospitalization numbers are more complicated than they first seem. Many people on that side of the ledger are still in the hospital because of the coronavirus, which has both caused and exacerbated chronic conditions.[...]Whether patients are admitted with or for COVID, they’re still being admitted in record volumes that hospitals are struggling to care for.

[...]

Some COVID-positive patients are unquestionably hospitalized for COVID: They are mostly unvaccinated, have classic respiratory problems, and require supplemental oxygen. Omicron might be less severe than Delta, but that doesn’t make it mild.

[...]

At the other extreme, there are patients whose COVID infection is truly incidental. They might have gone to an emergency room with a broken limb or a ruptured appendix, only to realize when they got tested that they also have asymptomatic COVID. Many health-care workers told me that they’ve treated such patients—but rarely. “It happens, but it’s not a big proportion,” Craig Spencer, an emergency physician at Columbia University Medical Center, told me.

[...]

The problem with splitting people into these two rough categories is that a lot of patients, including those with chronic illnesses, don’t fit neatly into either. COVID isn’t just a respiratory disease: it also affects other organ systems. It can make a weak heart beat erratically, turn a manageable case of diabetes into a severe one, or weaken a frail person to the point where they fall and break something. “If you’re on the margin of coming into the hospital, COVID tips you over,” Vineet Arora, a hospitalist at the University of Chicago Medicine, told me. In such cases, COVID might not be listed as a reason for admission, but the patient wouldn’t have been admitted were it not for COVID.

[b]These patients whose problems were exacerbated by COVID are often misleadingly bundled together with the smaller group whose medical problems are truly unrelated to COVID. In fairness, there’s no easy way to tell, for example, whether a COVID-positive person’s heart attack was triggered by their infection or whether it would have happened anyway. But health problems don’t line up to afflict patients one at a time. They intersect, overlap, and feed off one another. The entire for-COVID-or-with-COVID debate hinges on a false binary. [/b]
JessieJay
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 796

JessieJay
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 796

Keep in mind
1/13/2022 at 10:22 AM

Indadumps said "For him to say that it is just a distraction is wrong. A woman who is in hospital to give birth but tests positive with covid is not a covid hospitalization. she is not taking up an extra bed due to covid, or even being treated for it. A man who has gall bladder surgery but tests positive for covid while in recovery is not a covid hospitalization. "
The medical experts do know more about this than any of the general population...as Adam said already-great post Adam!

You have to realize that a heart attack patient might be admitted to hospital, then a test shows that he is covid positive. From there they determine that his heart attack was in fact triggered by covid. Same might be true for a patient brought in with blood clots in the lungs. Covid does indeed cause blood clots and heart attacks. Just because the patient doesn't know that he has covid when he comes into hospital does not mean it wasn't covid that put him there.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Uh... no
1/13/2022 at 10:26 AM

Rick999 said "I am definately not opposed. I am three times vaccinated. I am also South of the border right now. Feeling a lot less covid pressure here as I do at home. Omi is a minor cold like flu. If vaccinated, it lasts apx 12 hrs. "
We had Covid before and thru Christmas. It took more than a week for it to work through the kids, vaxxed kids quicker than the unvaxxed. The vaxxed adults still have some residual symptoms (especially my husband), and the adults got sick around the 20th.

It's not a cold. I shutter at the thought of how sick we would have been had we not been vaccinated, especially the adults. Our one unvaxxed child (due to age) was arguably the sickest, although he seems to have recovered faster than us adults.
mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

Rick999
1/13/2022 at 3:57 PM

Abbysmum said "We had Covid before and thru Christmas. It took more than a week for it to work through the kids, vaxxed kids quicker than the unvaxxed. The vaxxed adults still have some residual symptoms (especially my husband), and the adults got sick around the 20th.

It's not a cold. I shutter at the thought of how sick we would have been had we not been vaccinated, especially the adults. Our one unvaxxed child (due to age) was arguably the sickest, although he seems to have recovered faster than us adults. "
Is not wrong in his overall Omicron comment, except that it likely last far longer than 12 hrs and more like 3 or 4 days. First, sorry to hear that your family got infected, but glad to know that most are over it and hopefully your husband residual effects from the virus will be short lived. I agree with Rick999's comments. Omicron is proving highly infectious, but also far less deadly than previous variants. As well, hospital stays are of shorter duration than with the Delta variant for example. Dr. John Campbell (I posted his youtube link earlier) has stats that clearly show that Omicron is far less severe than Delta. You disagree with Rick999 because your family had a very bad experience with Covid and again, sorry that you did. I'd like to ask though, How do you know that your Covid infection was "Omicron"? It may have been "Delta" that you experienced. I ask, because I know several people that got "Omicron" and all 3 said it was like a mild flu. Two were fully vaccinated and the other, not at all. I know that everyone reacts to Covid differently, but if all members of your family struggled and some continue to struggle then it may not have been "Omicron". at all as Delta was very much still around at Christmas. Best of luck to you and yours moving past Covid and the silver lining for your family is that you now all have "natural immunity" and that looking like it's the best and longest protection against Covid re-infection.

Edited by mudman, 2022-01-13 16:03:20
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Ratio
1/14/2022 at 5:55 AM

Indadumps said "How can you get these numbers accurately when the health minister announced yesterday that only 1/3 of hospitalizations that were reported, were actually due to covid? These are the numbers used for mandates and to promote vaccines. Now they admit the numbers were inflated by 66%. Wow! "
Bit of a cross post, but relevant here too. Other thing when we’re seeing this directional shift based at least partially on that ratio. New York’s most recent data has it at 57% due to Covid or Covid complications with some regions going as high as and higher than 2/3 in that direction.
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-updates-new-yorkers-states-progress-combating-covid-19-131

Likely some differences in definition on both sides, but that is a major difference in what’s being reported there vs here. What accounts for those differences? With same virus, same species is it possible we might see a future week with data more closely resembling New York’s experience? Would ideally like to see a more detailed and regular breakdown of Manitoba’s data more closely resembling New York’s along with a breakdown of total hospital beds and available by region.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Vax tax
1/14/2022 at 6:00 AM

Re the vax tax, a thorough piece that examines some of the legal around the proposal. Don’t necessarily agree with every single point but there’s a lot to take in when assessing this sort of thing and how likely it is to get from being floated to actually being in place:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/legault-tax-unvaccinated-pandemic-covid-omicron-1.6312706
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

A few thoughts
1/14/2022 at 9:32 AM

mudman said "Is not wrong in his overall Omicron comment, except that it likely last far longer than 12 hrs and more like 3 or 4 days. First, sorry to hear that your family got infected, but glad to know that most are over it and hopefully your husband residual effects from the virus will be short lived. I agree with Rick999's comments. Omicron is proving highly infectious, but also far less deadly than previous variants. As well, hospital stays are of shorter duration than with the Delta variant for example. Dr. John Campbell (I posted his youtube link earlier) has stats that clearly show that Omicron is far less severe than Delta. You disagree with Rick999 because your family had a very bad experience with Covid and again, sorry that you did. I'd like to ask though, How do you know that your Covid infection was "Omicron"? It may have been "Delta" that you experienced. I ask, because I know several people that got "Omicron" and all 3 said it was like a mild flu. Two were fully vaccinated and the other, not at all. I know that everyone reacts to Covid differently, but if all members of your family struggled and some continue to struggle then it may not have been "Omicron". at all as Delta was very much still around at Christmas. Best of luck to you and yours moving past Covid and the silver lining for your family is that you now all have "natural immunity" and that looking like it's the best and longest protection against Covid re-infection.

Edited by mudman, 2022-01-13 16:03:20"
A few thoughts:

The person I was replying to was sharing personal experience. I was sharing my personal experience that was the exact opposite. Covid is a illness that has a wide variety of presentations, from completely asymptomatic to death (and everything in between). My point being that we cannot rely on the "it's like a cold" narrative because it often isn't.

The "Omicron is mild" statement has many caveats. Yes, it tends to present less severe complications than Delta, probably because of it's propensity to prefer the upper airway vs deeper in the lungs. It's probably at least as severe as Alpha, which as you recall, wreaked havoc Fall of 2020. The "Omicron is mild" idea is influenced by vaccines and prior infections. It's still very serious in unimmunized, naive populations (no prior infection). All of what you say is true about shorter hospitalization etc, but again, there's major caveats.

The other larger issue is spread. It just spreads just so darn fast. It's hard to contain. It's only just now reaching Southern Health (Delta was still dominant until very recently), so we will see how much protection the Delta surge will have afforded them.

Also re: natural immunity. Most studies have shown that natural immunity is no better than vaccine and maybe shorter lived. It's also a gamble to get it. Even if we survive (most likely), there's the issue of Long Covid and how much damage that will do due to disability.

Edit to add: Based on the speed that it whipped through our house, it was Omicron. My nephew also had a positive test a couple of days ago and he was *very* sick, struggling to breathe. His aunt is a nurse and she was checking him and his O2 stats. He's finally on the mend, but it was very scary for them for a couple of days. Don't dismiss it as mild, because you just never know.

Edited by Abbysmum, 2022-01-14 09:35:21
Home Slice
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1360

Home Slice
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1360

Unvaxed
1/14/2022 at 3:39 PM

So in my thinking it’s not that complicated. Your either helping to stop it or your helping to spread it. You have to ask yourself which one am I?
mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

mudman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9

I'll
1/14/2022 at 8:23 PM

Abbysmum said "A few thoughts:

The person I was replying to was sharing personal experience. I was sharing my personal experience that was the exact opposite. Covid is a illness that has a wide variety of presentations, from completely asymptomatic to death (and everything in between). My point being that we cannot rely on the "it's like a cold" narrative because it often isn't.

The "Omicron is mild" statement has many caveats. Yes, it tends to present less severe complications than Delta, probably because of it's propensity to prefer the upper airway vs deeper in the lungs. It's probably at least as severe as Alpha, which as you recall, wreaked havoc Fall of 2020. The "Omicron is mild" idea is influenced by vaccines and prior infections. It's still very serious in unimmunized, naive populations (no prior infection). All of what you say is true about shorter hospitalization etc, but again, there's major caveats.

The other larger issue is spread. It just spreads just so darn fast. It's hard to contain. It's only just now reaching Southern Health (Delta was still dominant until very recently), so we will see how much protection the Delta surge will have afforded them.

Also re: natural immunity. Most studies have shown that natural immunity is no better than vaccine and maybe shorter lived. It's also a gamble to get it. Even if we survive (most likely), there's the issue of Long Covid and how much damage that will do due to disability.

Edit to add: Based on the speed that it whipped through our house, it was Omicron. My nephew also had a positive test a couple of days ago and he was *very* sick, struggling to breathe. His aunt is a nurse and she was checking him and his O2 stats. He's finally on the mend, but it was very scary for them for a couple of days. Don't dismiss it as mild, because you just never know.

Edited by Abbysmum, 2022-01-14 09:35:21"
Just touch on the "Natural Immunity". I acknowledge that much of MSM and Fauci have repeated time and again that "Natural Immunity" can't be trusted. I personnaly don't buy that argument for two reasons.
1. There are "wide" studies that have shown "Natural Immunity" is far better than the vaccine at providing protection against re-infection (I believe the most prominent study was an Israeli study with 10's if not 100's of thousands of indivuduals used for data and I can provide you the link if you'd like). In addition, according to Dr. John Camlbell, the data reviewed would suggest that in South Africa, "Natural Immunity" has proven very effective against "Omicron".
2. I personnaly got infected with the "original" strain of Covid way, way back, before anyone actually heard of Covid. Months later I was sure that I had been infected as I had had classic sypmtoms such as lost smell and taste for 5 months. Finally, this past August I decided to get a " Covid antibody" test done as some friends/family did not believe that I had been infected. Well, the test results showed that I still had antibodies in my blood, 20 months later. I laugh to myself when I hear experts say that "Natural Immunity" doesn't provide long term protection as that's simply not true.
Those two reasons are enough to convince me that Natural Immunity is as good, probably much better than the vaccines. Anyway, I believe that by being fully vaxxed and infected should provide you and yours great protection for quite some time against re-infection or at least protect you from serious negative effects if re-infected.
don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

Covid
1/14/2022 at 8:54 PM

Natural immunity is like everything else related to covid, it’s a point to be argued about.
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/covid-why-t-cell-vaccines-174340026.html

I put this link in for anyone to read about the M-NRA vaccines, and the related immune response. It doesn’t matter if it’s M-MRA for covid or other treatment using this technology, the effects are temporary but work extremely well right after the shot.
Research out of the UK, on how the M-NRA affected women’s menstrual cycles, did give an indication on a timeline for the efficacy of the vaccines. The medical standard for being “late” is 8 days, over 8 days is considered not normal, and many women where exhibiting cycles that where not normal. The affect though was short lived in a way, cycles returned to normal usually after two cycles. The theory that is being looked at now shall give a better indication of how often boosters are needed, it’s looking more like in the 10-12 week time frame.
Keeping boosters up to date is important in preventing breakthrough cases, which in themselves have the ability to create variants.
aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

natural immunity
1/14/2022 at 11:04 PM

mudman said "Just touch on the "Natural Immunity". I acknowledge that much of MSM and Fauci have repeated time and again that "Natural Immunity" can't be trusted. I personnaly don't buy that argument for two reasons.
1. There are "wide" studies that have shown "Natural Immunity" is far better than the vaccine at providing protection against re-infection (I believe the most prominent study was an Israeli study with 10's if not 100's of thousands of indivuduals used for data and I can provide you the link if you'd like). In addition, according to Dr. John Camlbell, the data reviewed would suggest that in South Africa, "Natural Immunity" has proven very effective against "Omicron".
2. I personnaly got infected with the "original" strain of Covid way, way back, before anyone actually heard of Covid. Months later I was sure that I had been infected as I had had classic sypmtoms such as lost smell and taste for 5 months. Finally, this past August I decided to get a " Covid antibody" test done as some friends/family did not believe that I had been infected. Well, the test results showed that I still had antibodies in my blood, 20 months later. I laugh to myself when I hear experts say that "Natural Immunity" doesn't provide long term protection as that's simply not true.
Those two reasons are enough to convince me that Natural Immunity is as good, probably much better than the vaccines. Anyway, I believe that by being fully vaxxed and infected should provide you and yours great protection for quite some time against re-infection or at least protect you from serious negative effects if re-infected. "
I wonder if people are miscommunicating the message on this. I don't think anyone is saying that natural immunity doesn't provide some protection. But what seems to be even better is natural immunity plus vaccination. So if you've had it, the vaccine will still help reduce the chance (or severity) of a breakthrough infection even further. And if you haven't had it, well, the vaccine is your only chance to protect yourself intentionally, on your own terms. Wanting to catch it so you'll have natural immunity is just an incredibly, deeply flawed idea. On the other hand, yes, if you had COVID, your natural immunity is worth something. But you can do even better. The antibodies you have from your original infection are simply 'present'. That doesn't tell you a lot about how much protection they continue to give you. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. After all, any antibody, natural or from the vaccine, will gradually fade in effectiveness, even if they are still 'present'. There is a lot more going on than just 'having' or 'not having' antibodies. You start with 'a lot' and at some point in the future you don't have any. There's a lot that happens in between, and the timeline is different for everyone.
HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

HopeI'mWrong
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 22

Nobody
1/15/2022 at 1:18 AM

aBUFAmember said "I wonder if people are miscommunicating the message on this. I don't think anyone is saying that natural immunity doesn't provide some protection. But what seems to be even better is natural immunity plus vaccination. So if you've had it, the vaccine will still help reduce the chance (or severity) of a breakthrough infection even further. And if you haven't had it, well, the vaccine is your only chance to protect yourself intentionally, on your own terms. Wanting to catch it so you'll have natural immunity is just an incredibly, deeply flawed idea. On the other hand, yes, if you had COVID, your natural immunity is worth something. But you can do even better. The antibodies you have from your original infection are simply 'present'. That doesn't tell you a lot about how much protection they continue to give you. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. After all, any antibody, natural or from the vaccine, will gradually fade in effectiveness, even if they are still 'present'. There is a lot more going on than just 'having' or 'not having' antibodies. You start with 'a lot' and at some point in the future you don't have any. There's a lot that happens in between, and the timeline is different for everyone. "
Nobody wants to catch it, but it would appear everybody is catching it. Even those that had a booster a month ago are getting covid, so the simple fact he has natural antibodies after 20 months is looking pretty good right now.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Booster
1/15/2022 at 8:26 AM

Facts on vaccines and boosters are important, especially at a time when some seem extra empowered this week to float some of the same questionable, disproven and/or factually half-hearted narratives we've seen over the past year.

The link below has (I think?) been added pretty recently to the Provincial website with info on vaccines and boosters... the "Recharge Your Immunity" campaign:
"With the Manitoba health care system nearing capacity, it is in everyone’s best interest that we all do what we can to limit the spread of COVID-19. The most important tool we have to fight COVID is vaccination—whether it’s getting your first, second, or third dose."

https://protectmb.ca/booster/
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Thank you
1/15/2022 at 8:54 AM

aBUFAmember said "I wonder if people are miscommunicating the message on this. I don't think anyone is saying that natural immunity doesn't provide some protection. But what seems to be even better is natural immunity plus vaccination. So if you've had it, the vaccine will still help reduce the chance (or severity) of a breakthrough infection even further. And if you haven't had it, well, the vaccine is your only chance to protect yourself intentionally, on your own terms. Wanting to catch it so you'll have natural immunity is just an incredibly, deeply flawed idea. On the other hand, yes, if you had COVID, your natural immunity is worth something. But you can do even better. The antibodies you have from your original infection are simply 'present'. That doesn't tell you a lot about how much protection they continue to give you. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. After all, any antibody, natural or from the vaccine, will gradually fade in effectiveness, even if they are still 'present'. There is a lot more going on than just 'having' or 'not having' antibodies. You start with 'a lot' and at some point in the future you don't have any. There's a lot that happens in between, and the timeline is different for everyone. "
Thank you for a commitment to a fact-based look at these topics, a respect for probabilities and for trying best to articulate within the shades of grey where others might use those shades of grey to imply something they don't necessarily imply.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Restaurant
1/15/2022 at 8:28 PM

Toronto restaurant hosts vaccine clinic…. Love it:
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/part-of-the-solution-vaccinations-on-menu-at-barberians-steak-house