Discussions

I'm sure many of you read the Brandon Sun, so you are familiar with this exchange between the MTS president and opinion writers from the BS.  
 
This was the first article titled "The Elephant in the Classroom: Teacher Pay" from the March 3rd Sun. I know you have to have a subscription to read the entirety of the opinion piece.  
 
http://www.brandonsun.com/opinion/the-elephant-in-the-classroom-teacher-pay-370904721.html?thx=y  
 
The MTS president wrote a rebuttal March 8th titled "Scapegoating Teachers Simply Not Productive" This piece can be read in its entirety from the link I provide. Just scroll down a bit to read the piece.  
 
http://www.mbteach.org/news/news.html  
 
Then there was another opinio piece from the Sun title "If process isn't sustainable, we can be critical"  
 
Link is here. Sorry to all who can't access the entire piece.  
http://www.brandonsun.com/opinion/if-process-isnt-sustainable-we-can-be-critical-371376421.html?thx=y  
 
I appreciate being given the opportunity to understand both sides.  
 
 
 

agreed it is not fair to scapegoat the teacher it is a fact that the standards that the students attain are sub par and what we have to pay is definatly not sub par . the manitoba education system is in crisis but the powers to be do not see it . i expect that we are all at fault as we do not step up to the plate and run for school board and have a say locally . the province that regulates much of what happens needs to get their heads out of the sand and look at what is happening

I agree that there is more to the education problem in Manitoba than teacher wages. However, as in any service delivery system, poor results lead to criticism. The paper suggests consumers are not getting good value for money. An argument could be made that the service providers are to blame or that the product they are given to provide are to blame. It is likely a combination of the two. The proposition of the MTS that the diversity of the student base is to blame sounds dangerously close to blaming the victims. That, to me, is not acceptable.

Agree that people are upset with school tax increase and the high teacher salaries and the teachers being told to dumb down their classes, not sure what needs to be done but a freeze on teachers salaries might be a start, no way should our Manitoba teachers get paid more than some other provinces, we need the media to show the salaries across the provinces so the public is aware.

I agree the education system defiantly needs to be looked at and improved. Things can always be improved. But at the same time teachers defiantly deserve fair compensation for there jobs. Its not an easy job by any means and a lot of school related work is done outside the classroom after hours on personal time like marking, getting sub plans ready when sick or away, buying supplies, phoning parents, getting the classroom ready in summer for upcoming year,etc. Its also not a simple fix and sure if teachers wages were freezed or cut it would benefit the tax payer, but not the students. Throwing teachers under the bus isn't going to solve anything.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by The_Young_Man, 2016-03-10 18:33:09

The_Young_Man said "I agree the education system defiantly needs to be looked at and improved. Things can always be improved. But at the same time teachers defiantly deserve fair compensation for there jobs. Its not an easy job by any means and a lot of school related work is done outside the classroom after hours on personal time like marking, getting sub plans ready when sick or away, buying supplies, phoning parents, getting the classroom ready in summer for upcoming year,etc. Its also not a simple fix and sure if teachers wages were freezed or cut it would benefit the tax payer, but not the students. Throwing teachers under the bus isn't going to solve anything.             Edited by The_Young_Man, 2016-03-10 18:33:09"

curious as to how a wage freeze would hurt students.

I've uploaded an image of the pay table from within the collective agreement between the Brandon Teacher's Association and the Brandon School Division, https://www.bsd.ca/Division/Careers/Documents/BTA10.pdf. Each figure on the table will increase by 2% next year, 2% the year after that and 3.02 % the year after that. Tables I've looked at are nearly identical across the province and the identical annual increases have been negotiated for 36 of 38 school divisions according to the Manitoba Teachers Federation, https://www.mbteach.org/collective-bargaining/rankings/2016febSalary%20Settlements.pdf  
 
Although teachers may grade students all the time and that my have significant impact on future opportunities and income, once one becomes a teacher, income is solely based on experience and further education, not the grade one teaches or job performance. The absence of any merit based pay must frustrate many within the profession. If I'm wrong, let me have it.

Have been hearing for years about how bad the teachers have yes I agree the are a lot of challenges in the classroom but over the years and with continued high pay the students are not producing very well in my opinion so I really do think a wage freeze may help at least the tax payer because increased wages hasn,t done anything

Sorbet said "    The_Young_Man said "I agree the education system defiantly needs to be looked at and improved. Things can always be improved. But at the same time teachers defiantly deserve fair compensation for there jobs. Its not an easy job by any means and a lot of school related work is done outside the classroom after hours on personal time like marking, getting sub plans ready when sick or away, buying supplies, phoning parents, getting the classroom ready in summer for upcoming year,etc. Its also not a simple fix and sure if teachers wages were freezed or cut it would benefit the tax payer, but not the students. Throwing teachers under the bus isn't going to solve anything.             Edited by The_Young_Man, 2016-03-10 18:33:09" curious as to how a wage freeze would hurt students. "

I never said a wage freeze would hurt students. What I said is a cutting wages, which will I cant see ever happening, or freezing teacher wages would benifit the tax payer. To be more clear I meant that if teacher wages were freezed it's not going to change the level of education children receive and there has been arguments in the past that students in Manitoba have low grades and aren't receiving a high enough level of education. Sorry hope that cleared that up.

Another round of education postulating.  
 
Education or an educational system is a process of development - is in constant flux, is and always being examined from within and without.  
 
I don't agree that wage cuts are a solution - why introduce punitive measures that affect individuals? Average teachers wages in this province are neither too high or low comparatively.  
 
Teachers work within a system. Therefore, the system must be changed. I have long advocated a system in Manitoba with fewer Divisions and hopefully, more uniformity in the delivery of education. That may be a solution.  

Paul A said "Another round of education postulating.     Education or an educational system is a process of development - is in constant flux, is and always being examined from within and without.     I don't agree that wage cuts are a solution - why introduce punitive measures that affect individuals? Average teachers wages in this province are neither too high or low comparatively.     Teachers work within a system. Therefore, the system must be changed. I have long advocated a system in Manitoba with fewer Divisions and hopefully, more uniformity in the delivery of education. That may be a solution.   "

do you mean by more uniformity in the delivery of education.  
 
I'm not sure you would agree with me, but I strongly feel a big problem in Manitoba is very poor curricula. When a government brags about increasing grad rates, one has to ask why are grad rates increasing. The truth is that grad rates are rising because standards have been greatly lowered. I've mentioned here many times before: what current grade 8 students in MB are expected to do in math were done in grade 6 in the 70s and 80s.  
 
So yes, grad rates are higher through regression. The irony.

emphasizing the same essential outcomes across the province. For example, the Grade 9 Social Studies curriculum lists about 105 outcomes. In practice, it is not possible to address all these outcomes to the required degree. Divisions will select the essential outcomes that the majority of students will achieve. Some Divisions allow this to take place independently on a teacher-by-teacher basis. Fewer Divisions could more easily determine essential outcomes and more consistent program delivery.  
 
I will challenge your thinking re grad rates rising because of lowered standards. I would consider HOW graduation rates are calculated.  
 
Time was, grad rates were based on whether or not students graduated with the students they entered kindergarten with. Later, the calculation was based on simply whether or not the student graduated from grade 12, hence, higher rates.  
 
How is it possible for a Division to increase rates in the 40% range over a year or two?  
 
In terms of curriculum, I don't feel the Math curriculum addresses the basics of addition, subtraction etc.  
 
Of course, just my opinions.

It is easy to raise the grad rate, when is the last time you heard of a student failing a class.  
 
Schools and the administrator of the school are rated on grad rates, and I dare any teacher to fail a student.  
 
Another change is the no suspension rules that are being pushed on high schools. Gone are the days of 1 and 3 day suspensions, last year a student needed to do something that qualified for a 5 day suspension before they got a time out. This year, even the 5 day tickets are gone.  
Why does the offenders right to an education trump everything you ask?  
 
Someone decided the worst thing you can do is give someone that doesn't want to learn time off from school. The fact they destroy the other 26 kids chance of learning anything doesn't matter.

I feel compelled to respond to this topic as an employer of a number of university students. Two in this case ring out in my mind for their differences. To start with the good. This person has just recently left after completing the program. Diligent, Hard working, and I dare say, a believer in corpral punishment. Dedicated and responsible. Cash outs always balanced or very close to. On the bad, a person taking the very same course, two years behind. Keep in mind that both have paid very good money for their continuing education. One class project at the university lvl included putting on a puppet show. Seriously. A couple weeks ago, the debit terminal went down and I got a call from this person saying the cash out would be a mess for that reason. We can't figure out the balance because the machine won't tell me what I need to have. When I said to add up the debit terminals manually you would think that I had requested that they part the sea. The point I'm trying to make is that education starts from the top and works down. If we want to see smarter kids then we need smarter teachers on all lvls. To hand out jobs based on grades and reward monetarily based on time served is not doing anybody any good. Our next generation in particular. That's the good and bad based on my personnel experience with it. I hope I never see the ugly.

casualobserver said "I feel compelled to respond to this topic as an employer of a number of university students. Two in this case ring out in my mind for their differences. To start with the good. This person has just recently left after completing the program. Diligent, Hard working, and I dare say, a believer in corpral punishment. Dedicated and responsible. Cash outs always balanced or very close to. On the bad, a person taking the very same course, two years behind. Keep in mind that both have paid very good money for their continuing education. One class project at the university lvl included putting on a puppet show. Seriously. A couple weeks ago, the debit terminal went down and I got a call from this person saying the cash out would be a mess for that reason. We can't figure out the balance because the machine won't tell me what I need to have. When I said to add up the debit terminals manually you would think that I had requested that they part the sea. The point I'm trying to make is that education starts from the top and works down. If we want to see smarter kids then we need smarter teachers on all lvls. To hand out jobs based on grades and reward monetarily based on time served is not doing anybody any good. Our next generation in particular. That's the good and bad based on my personnel experience with it. I hope I never see the ugly. "

The teachers are handcuffed. Can't fail anybody, can't give zeros for work not handed in, can't even dock marks for late assignments. That might hurt someone's feelings. So we get kids out of high school who have no idea about consequences and repercussions. They think they don't have to work for anything cuz its always been just handed to them. Thats not the teachers fault, thats the system.

if the teachers are that invested to the continuing growth of education it's about time to put a stop to the passive progress. There are those that are truly invested in making a difference and those that go through it all because it's a good pay cheque and no fault lies on them because their hands are tied by the system. It's a lose, lose situation and the ultimate blame lies on us as the public for letting this happen  

JackAzz said "    casualobserver said "I feel compelled to respond to this topic as an employer of a number of university students. Two in this case ring out in my mind for their differences. To start with the good. This person has just recently left after completing the program. Diligent, Hard working, and I dare say, a believer in corpral punishment. Dedicated and responsible. Cash outs always balanced or very close to. On the bad, a person taking the very same course, two years behind. Keep in mind that both have paid very good money for their continuing education. One class project at the university lvl included putting on a puppet show. Seriously. A couple weeks ago, the debit terminal went down and I got a call from this person saying the cash out would be a mess for that reason. We can't figure out the balance because the machine won't tell me what I need to have. When I said to add up the debit terminals manually you would think that I had requested that they part the sea. The point I'm trying to make is that education starts from the top and works down. If we want to see smarter kids then we need smarter teachers on all lvls. To hand out jobs based on grades and reward monetarily based on time served is not doing anybody any good. Our next generation in particular. That's the good and bad based on my personnel experience with it. I hope I never see the ugly. " The teachers are handcuffed. Can't fail anybody, can't give zeros for work not handed in, can't even dock marks for late assignments. That might hurt someone's feelings. So we get kids out of high school who have no idea about consequences and repercussions. They think they don't have to work for anything cuz its always been just handed to them. Thats not the teachers fault, thats the system. "

agree with you on this and hear the same thing from many teachers. I'm sure there are many teachers throughout the province that feel as you do.  
 
My question is why don'y a majority of the 15,000 teachers in Manitoba take a collective stance and demand better of the education system for their students?  
 
I know why they don't. It's because they have to take their marching orders from the Manitoba Teachers' Society. Too many teachers blindly adhere to the union talking points. MTS dictates what and how teachers should think. Not once have I heard MTS ask for higher standards. All they do is make excuses for Manitoba's low scores.  
 
Read a few issues of The Manitoba Teacher to understand what the priorities of the ultra-left MTS are.  
 
Here is the latest issue.  
https://www.mbteach.org/library/Archives/MBTeacher/March16_MBT.pdf  
 
...and the one from January.  
 
https://www.mbteach.org/library/Archives/MBTeacher/Jan-Feb16_MBT.pdf  
 
With the link below you can access many past issues of this magazine. As you read, you will realize where education priorities lie. And remember, with the current NDP government, the MTS has PLENTY of power, and they don't want to lose that power.  
 
http://www.mbteach.org/library2/index.php/category/mbteacher  
 
Edited by Sorbet, 2016-03-11 06:42:10

There are so many inaccurate statements made in this thread it saddens me that people believe it….Just to address a few before I head off to work (yes as a teacher!)  
 
Students in high schools do fail courses. Yes the school and teachers try to help the students but if they don't meet the outcomes then they fail. Happens regularly.  
 
Students in high schools do receive deductions for late assignments (10%-gr 9, 15%-gr 10, 20%-gr 11, and 25%-gr 12). But I will add that often the parent "excuses" their child from the class so the teacher is not allowed to deduct marks because the parent backs their child.  
 
There are certainly suspensions in high schools ranging from 1 day to 30 days both in-school and out-of-school. Happens regularly. There's been no change from last year. Do the schools try to look at alternative approaches besides suspensions to help students learn from their behaviour….yes….but that certainly doesn't mean there are no suspensions. Far from it.  
 
Graduation rates….the rates have not changed by 40% in the last year or two. That is an interesting statement. I would love to see evidence to back up that statement.  
 
But I must head off to work….contrary to popular belief I get there at 8 am and don't leave until 5 (last night it was 7 pm but that is just part of the job I love to do  
 
Have a great day!  

Nik said "There are so many inaccurate statements made in this thread it saddens me that people believe it….Just to address a few before I head off to work (yes as a teacher!)     Students in high schools do fail courses. Yes the school and teachers try to help the students but if they don't meet the outcomes then they fail. Happens regularly.     Students in high schools do receive deductions for late assignments (10%-gr 9, 15%-gr 10, 20%-gr 11, and 25%-gr 12). But I will add that often the parent "excuses" their child from the class so the teacher is not allowed to deduct marks because the parent backs their child.     There are certainly suspensions in high schools ranging from 1 day to 30 days both in-school and out-of-school. Happens regularly. There's been no change from last year. Do the schools try to look at alternative approaches besides suspensions to help students learn from their behaviour….yes….but that certainly doesn't mean there are no suspensions. Far from it.     Graduation rates….the rates have not changed by 40% in the last year or two. That is an interesting statement. I would love to see evidence to back up that statement.     But I must head off to work….contrary to popular belief I get there at 8 am and don't leave until 5 (last night it was 7 pm but that is just part of the job I love to do     Have a great day!   "

people work much longer hours than you. Many don't feel the need to advertise the fact. Union talking points aside, why do you feel Manitoba students, are for the most part, doing poorly in academic subjects?

If there were constant peanut gallery comments about how those other hard working people work short hours when in fact they do not, they would probably be inclined to point out the inaccuracies too.

Ever take into consideration that if students are not at a level they should be that maybe parents need to take a good portion of that blame? If those students not meeting expectations how many of them regularly attend school? How often are they skipping school while parents aren't making sure they go? How many parents when they know their kids are struggling are putting the extra effort in to help them succeed? Hiring a tutor? Helping them with homework? How many of those students have parents that are making sure their kids do their homework? The problem I have is that I don't see this lack in my kids. They are not behind in school, they excel in all their subjects, etc. But we also set them up for success, spend time making sure they do homework, help if they need it, etc. Parents play a large role in children's education, but it's just easier to point fingers at teachers when a child is struggling rather than accept responsibility.

weatherman harry potter said "Ever take into consideration that if students are not at a level they should be that maybe parents need to take a good portion of that blame? If those students not meeting expectations how many of them regularly attend school? How often are they skipping school while parents aren't making sure they go? How many parents when they know their kids are struggling are putting the extra effort in to help them succeed? Hiring a tutor? Helping them with homework? How many of those students have parents that are making sure their kids do their homework? The problem I have is that I don't see this lack in my kids. They are not behind in school, they excel in all their subjects, etc. But we also set them up for success, spend time making sure they do homework, help if they need it, etc. Parents play a large role in children's education, but it's just easier to point fingers at teachers when a child is struggling rather than accept responsibility. "

i do not believe that everyone here is pointing at the teacher , but at the whole education system . if you wish to blame parents , are you saying that parents in manitoba are not as competant as those in areas where students perform better ? there is enough blame to go around it starts with the administration that has dumbed down curriculum on the advice of experts that they pay lots of money too , they need to listen to more qualified experts when result are sub par .

 
Number of suspensions per month for BSD  
 
2008-09 32.5 per month  
2011-12 25.7 per month  
2012-13 32.7 per month  
As per: http://www.brandonsun.com/local/number-of-suspensions-on-the-rise-stats-237962291.html  
 
2015-16 7 high school suspensions in January.  
As per : http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/Is-there-a-suspension-phenomena-occurring-in-Brandon-schools-368843541.html  
 
The new rules for suspensions in high school are simple, there gone.  
 
Curriculum is set by the Government, they have a huge department of Experts. MTS can talk to that department, but they have no seat at the table.  
 
MTS does not negotiate contracts for teachers. In Brandon for example, BTA negotiates with the elected Brandon Division representatives.  
 
Do teachers want better, Yes.  
 
Can teachers make as much a difference as a large group of voters?  
I sure the dept. of Education thinks everything's OK because nobody ever shows up when education is the topic.  
 
My suggestion: Instead of coming on here and blasting teachers year after year, start being vocal at budget meetings or start a letter writing campaign aimed at the people in government that write the rules. Together a large group of unhappy voters can start the wheels turning.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2016-03-11 17:28:11

I'm always amazed, and frustrated, when everyone suddenly thinks they are an expert on education once some teeny tiny disagreement arises. "I've been to school, therefore I know how the system works". Well I've been to the doctors, and you don't see me telling them how to operate, what their wages should be, or how the entire medical profession should be run. Those who are involved in the field know what their doing. Trust me. It's not as if educators are trying to gouge you for money and ruin your child's education. Sometimes, I really wish there could be a trade of jobs for a year or two. See how these people function as teachers. I bet they make it about a month before they tap out, or become the inevitable terrible teacher they claim is the problem.

loeog said "   Number of suspensions per month for BSD     2008-09 32.5 per month   2011-12 25.7 per month   2012-13 32.7 per month   As per: http://www.brandonsun.com/local/number-of-suspensions-on-the-rise-stats-237962291.html     2015-16 7 high school suspensions in January.   As per : http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/Is-there-a-suspension-phenomena-occurring-in-Brandon-schools-368843541.html     The new rules for suspensions in high school are simple, there gone.     Curriculum is set by the Government, they have a huge department of Experts. MTS can talk to that department, but they have no seat at the table.     MTS does not negotiate contracts for teachers. In Brandon for example, BTA negotiates with the elected Brandon Division representatives.     Do teachers want better, Yes.     Can teachers make as much a difference as a large group of voters?   I sure the dept. of Education thinks everything's OK because nobody ever shows up when education is the topic.     My suggestion: Instead of coming on here and blasting teachers year after year, start being vocal at budget meetings or start a letter writing campaign aimed at the people in government that write the rules. Together a large group of unhappy voters can start the wheels turning.                                         Edited by loeog, 2016-03-11 17:28:11"

You claim in both of your posts on this discussion that there are no suspensions in high school anymore, yet in the Winnipeg Free Press link you posted it says that there were seven suspensions in the month of January in Brandon high schools. Obviously there are still suspensions whether they are in school or out of school suspensions and your statement contradict the truth.  
 
 
 
Edited by The_Young_Man, 2016-03-11 18:45:19

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/5489576

From our Provincial Assessment Policy:  
 
"Divisions MAY NOT adopt a policy that mandates student promotion regardless of their achievement."  
 
It also says that teachers can deduct marks for late, dishonest or missing work.  
 
http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/assess/docs/policy_k12/index.html  
 
The full policy is there. If you feel that policy is not being followed in your school or division, have a talk with the teacher or administrators.  
 

Starhc said "From our Provincial Assessment Policy:     "Divisions MAY NOT adopt a policy that mandates student promotion regardless of their achievement."     It also says that teachers can deduct marks for late, dishonest or missing work.     http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/assess/docs/policy_k12/index.html     The full policy is there. If you feel that policy is not being followed in your school or division, have a talk with the teacher or administrators.     "

Policy section.  
Line item 2  
The final decision on passing a student rests with the principal. If the student doesn't show enough work to meet the provincial outcomes, modified outcomes will and are used.  

Nor said "Agree that people are upset with school tax increase and the high teacher salaries and the teachers being told to dumb down their classes, not sure what needs to be done but a freeze on teachers salaries might be a start, no way should our Manitoba teachers get paid more than some other provinces, we need the media to show the salaries across the provinces so the public is aware. "

It would be interested to note that aside from salaries that teachers get in other provinces, what about their benefits?  
 
In other provinces, do teachers, aside from salary, also get dental plans, Extended Health Plans, Long Term Disability (like workers compensation), Vision PLans, etc as a part of their benefit packages?  
 
In Manitoba, teachers in all but one or two divisions pay for these premiums from their pay. In most divisions, they pay 1/2 of a life insurance premium up to 2X a teachers' salary. But if a teachers' association wants a dental plan, they pay the full premium. If they wanted Extended Blue Cross, they pay the full premium.  
 
I am not saying that its a justification for higher salaries (at class 7) but I am wondering are those premiums paid in full or part by the other provincial governments.  
 

You ask a good question but what do we know of these tests. I have 4 children (3 boys and a girl). My boys are now through the public school system. We are extremely active parents with the school (not hovering but eyes on)  
 
My oldest son was "lucky" enough to be selected for one of the science tests when he was in grade 8 (his whole class). I am not ashamed to say that my son brought the provincial average down that year. Why?  
 
He has a comprehension problem when it comes to understanding reading. Basically, he can read but does not fully understand what is being said. Through out his school, he had to have an aid help with the complex problems in test by reading him the question. For what ever reason (we still don't know), if it is read to him, he gets more understanding from it.  
 
Well, science test put out by a think tank group in BC doesn't allow for that kind of help. Because he was never given a level 2 or 3 designation, he had to do it all on his own. We don't know how well he did but it could not have been good.  
 
Do I blame the teachers? The school? Hell, event the Division? No because they have taught my son an adapting skill that he is using at ACC. He will be okay but he definitely pulled the provincial average down and he wasn't the only none Leveled student in his class.  
 
So these wonderful tests that compare us to other provinces, what are the students like that are writing them? What are the requirements for determining levels? if they select certain classes in the province, what kind of make up is the class? And worse yet, do the students really care about these tests? Has your child ever said they didn't care because it wasn't for marks. My youngest has. Drives me nuts.  
 
And by the way, I agree with you when you state that the curriculum is nuts. Explain to me why in math a student has to show the answer to say 325 x 65 three different ways? Isn't just getting the answer in one form or way the point of the curriculum? Too much time in explaining why it is done instead of just doing the question.