Discussions

I go back a long time, but there have been people who saw problems that we would have. I don't know your age, but I remember a fellow named Buckminster Fuller who I heard give an interview way back in the late sixties, and was impressed about how he looked at the world as far as climate and the environment. He was the person who gave us the geodesic dome for Expo 67, but his interests were far greater than just architecture, and if the world had of listened then, we would be living in a much better world today.  
I'm the sort of person who believes that critical mass applies to all things, sadly it applies to population growth and the sustainability of the world we live in. I don't believe that all nations of the world are short sighted, but there are far to many where the idea of "I or Me" seems to be the ruling thought. You talk of socialist countries where things do work, but the people of most of those countries have a completely different mentality, and it's different in so many areas, and to me it seems to be something that is taught by family values, simple things, like don't waste food.  
I don't know what the answer is, but I know we have gone down more than one wrong road, and turning around will be very difficult if it is even possible given people's mentality.

KJ2013 said "I'm with you triplethreat. All you have to do is look at our PM and his love affair with the UN (which would love a one world government). And climate change is the one thing they can scare everyone with.     A carbon tax is going to screw people over that don't live in large cities. What about the people up north who already pay too much for everything? What about the people who want to live a quieter life in the country. Their life is more expensive all of the sudden because Zoolander thinks he's doing something great.     How about you give tax breaks to those who want to be green instead of just taking and taking from the population. But hey this will get us "thinking", hey Marpet? It's got me thinking this country is veering so far left it's scary.   Canada is responsible for what? 3% of the worlds pollution. What we do means nothing and do you think the world is going to follow our example? We might be thinking a little too highly of ourselves.   I miss Harper. He was a cold fish but he had common sense. "

I'm not saying that the carbon tax is the answer but what incentive is there for people to make changes if fossil fuel continues to be "cheap". Sure you'll get the "treehugger" who wants to live a sustainable lifestyle but in today's market he is penalized for the attempt. There is no incentive for business to make green initiatives mainstream if fossil fuels are continually subsidized by government.  
So lets not offer tax breaks for exploration and drilling as well as favorable tax initiatives to fossil fuel intense industry. Do you think the price will stay the same or increase for those goods? Who do we blame then? The government still because their "killing jobs"? How much taxpayer money does big oil need to remain profitable? Suncor CEO made $14.8m in 2011. Do we really need to be subsidizing these companies if they are giving it all to one person? No doubt those numbers have come down since the downturn but still.  
 
Canada is responsible for about 1.6% of GHG's and if we do nothing, that is the example the world will follow.  
 
Marpet

I'm not talking about tax breaks for big oil as they make enough already. I'm talking about tax breaks for the everyday Canadian.  
 
Even with you 1.6% you have us emitting the world isn't going to follow any example we set-if it's a carbon tax or nothing. A tax is never the answer and will not encourage initiative and people to become "green".  
 
What I would see as a good start would be bringing back jobs that we have shipped overseas where there are none to very little environmental regulations. Have things made here again where the environmental laws are more strict. Make a law (or an incentive) that requires manufacturers make appliances and electronics to last like they used to (20+ years). They are now throw away items. factories pump this stuff out polluting the atmosphere. The less being made the less pollution.  
 
And think about the environmental toll animal agriculture is having. Everyone's need to have beef, etc and fast food does way more damage that is driving cars. Look at the land/forests lost to make room for grazing, the amount of water used, etc. it's something no one ever thinks about but it's huge.  
 
A tax isn't going to change our behavior. It's just going to make the poor more poor and the middle class will just purchase less.

Hey doug lets put it this if you had a employee (government council etc) get a budget of a $100 and he was spending $500 what would you do. Me I would fire that person but we don't have that choice with them.

Nice that the blame for clearing land get put on the livestock producer, when this continent was first settled great forests covered most of the land from the Atlantic Ocean to the central plains, and if land was able to be farmed it was cleared, and even today land is cleared in this area, usually for the production of grain. Same goes for looking at livestock as a source of harmful gas production, a direct byproduct of producing nitrogen fertilizer is carbon dioxide, and if we are planning on replacing animal protein with grain protein then there will have to be larger fertilizer inputs as well as chemical inputs, all of these are manufactured products which leave a carbon footprint.

I'm certainly not placing the blame of livestock producers here in Canada. I should have mentioned I'm referring to places like Brazil where acres and acres of rain forest are taken done to make room grazing.  
 
To your point about grain-yes you're right but at least that can feed more of the worlds population where beef can't even come close. And you can rely on rain for your crop to grow where as with cattle they need water and food.  
I'm not bashing producers I'm just saying there is a lot of pollution and resources put into raising cattle.

I know that you weren't picking on livestock producers locally or maybe even nationally, but when makes a statement there are many people who don't take the investigation of the statement any further and everyone gets lumped into the same pile. The slash and burn policy in Brasil likely is a mistake on a really big scale but every country has it's own ideas on the production of food for it's people.

There's more forested area in north america than there was 100 years ago. Farmland is farmed far more effectively today ( as in soil conservation and fertility ) Not sure why people never talk about wpg.., because it's a major polluter,they dump raw sewage into the red river on a regular basis. Tax them.

You said "A tax isn't going to change our behavior. It's just going to make the poor more poor and the middle class will just purchase less".  
 
Since we have not seen what Manitoba's plan is yet, stating that it will make the poor poorer is just speculation and a scare tactic. BC returns the tax through tax breaks, Alberta has a website where you can see what it will cost you based on your habits and income.  
 
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3900339&ved=0ahUKEwi9rqfw17DRAhXq5YMKHYbzDJEQFghdMAk&usg=AFQjCNFQNnriHosj_N1y8QH771j8I1G2gA&sig2=lmqBLg7-F5IsWBAFAdBfTQ  
 
"The middle class will just purchase less",,,,,ahhh, yeah, that's the point?!? That is exactly the reason for the tax. Value products at their true cost so that people think about their purchases before making them. It will stop us from being as wasteful since if you have to pay more for that 55" TV when their is nothing wrong with the 48". Maybe the 7 passenger Expedition is a bit too much for your family of 4 when you only haul a bunch of kids 3 times a year. Maybe the lifted 4x4 as a second vehicle isn't the wisest choice for the 2 block run to get eggs.  
 
Shift manufacturing back to Canada where we can control co2 output? Great idea....a little Utopian don't you think? My household earns a very good middle class income and based on Alberta's system it would cost me about $500 per year. How much more will items cost if made in Canada? T-shirts, socks, toys, runners, etc.....all these things are cheap because WE insist on the manufacturer making them cheap. As a result you get extremely low wages and horrendous environmental regulations in other countries because they don't have to do any better....and we kept buying. You think Canadians are going to work for a few dollars a day? Are you going to accept paying exponentially higher prices for goods because the cost of manufacturing them has doubled, tripled....?  
 
There is a reason why goods are cheap and there is a reason why 3rd world countries don't have as strict environmental regulations....because we, the ultimate consumer don't demand it.  
 
I don't know if a carbon tax will work but we certainly need to start paying for the true cost of things and stop being so wasteful. This tax is an attempt to move us in the right direction and I support it. It's about damned time!  
 
Marpet

It's utopian of me to want jobs in Canada where they were in the first place before they went over seas?  
 
And you point out a tax will stop us from being wasteful. Sounds to me like a get less but pay more strategy. Why not just bring the jobs back to Canada. If cost goes up so be it-we all will be buying less if that's the case so you will achieve what you're talking about except you'll have manufacturers operating under Canadian pollution laws.  
 
It's like you want to justify a tax and don't want to look at any other way (like my suggestion of bringing back manufacturing) because you say it will cost too much but you then go on to say a tax will increase the cost of goods and we'll be buying less which is good.  
 
How do you think the economy will fare if we are buying less?? Jobs will be lost and that isn't speculation. Would you keep employees on if you're making less and less? How much business sense does that make. You cut costs somewhere and getting rid jobs are usually the first a business looks.  
 
And as far as a rebate goes don't you think a tax is pointless if you just give a good chunk of it back anyways. How does it discourage behavior? It won't.  
 
You talk about me wanting a "utopia" but it sounds like your way of thinking is utopian. You can't have your cake and eat it too.  
 
I can't wait for JT and his cabinet of clowns gets voted out.

First, I never said I was against bringing jobs back to Canada...I just don't think it has a reasonable chance of happening. Your own statements show why. Bring back manufacturing, prices go up, people stop buying, Jobs are lost, plants close.  
I'm more than happy to see what other ideas will work but what tools are available? Force (?) Manufacturers to return to Canada? How? Tariffs of imports? Sounds like a tax that will be passed onto the consumer, who will purchase less an imports will drop. What kind of time frame can we expect that to take place in? 5 years...10? So let's do nothing at all, hope the manufacturing comes back to Canada at prices we aren't willing to pay and then we'll change our habits? Yeah, that sounds Utopian.  
Place a tax on carbon driving up prices so that people make educated decisions a return the money to the public through green initiatives such as grants for solar installation, geo-thermal, proper light rail transit in large centers, and grants for electric vehicles.  
Offer tax exemptions to low income earners and deferrals for agriculture while still offering incentives for greener tech.  
Just like BC, pass a law stating that all money has to be returned to the taxpayer.  
If you don't want to adjust then don't...but it'll cost ya.  
 
Marpet

Sorry I hate typing on mobile sometimes as my fingers can't type as fast as I'm thinking.  
 
My point with the jobs thing is you're saying it can't happen because it will drive up costs. When you say a carbon tax will increase costs and force us to make more informed decisions. Wouldn't bring back manufacturing jobs to Canada do the same thing? If a carbon tax jacks up prices on everything local small businesses can close too only leaving the big guys around that can afford to absorb any price increase.  
 
And I'm all for giving people breaks on green incentives but why does the government feel it has to tax us to do it?  
 
And what really irks me is the government preaches environmental responsibility but they fly anywhere they can instead of driving (like Ottawa to Montreal) and McKenna jet setting all over the place. Want to lead by example? Skype! Our own government does want to change its habits but expects us to.

So if the lower income earners receive a tax exemption and nobody else.... What incentive is there for everyone else to reduce their carbon footprint ?  
 
A middle income or high income earner can do everything in their power to reduce their footprint but in the end there is no carbon tax return to them.  
 
It's simply another tax. Another way to redistribute the wealth in this country. It's the erosion of the middle class.  
 
Didn't Austrailia scrap their carbon plan after 2 years ? It wasn't really working the way they had planned.  
 
With our power prices having steep increases in the next 5 years, we don't really need another carbon tax. Mb Hydro figures our power rates will increase 30-40% over next five years. Ouch!! I believe that is our carbon tax.

I'm not saying that manufacturers can't come back to Canada, just that they won't. There is no financial incentives to do so. Costs will go up and there isn't a large enough consumer base to pressure them (unlike the US). Also, even if they do come back, what drives people to make greener choices? Business won't if it costs profits.  
History shows that most people won't change on their own. It requires an outside force to push them in a new direction. GCC has been in the news since the 70's but business has been very successful at keeping the question of scientific consensus in the fore front and the right wing media hasn't helped. When you give 1 scientific report the same weight as 100, confusion sets in.  
As far as governments being hypocritical, travel is a necessary evil of the job but granted, they could make better decisions. Riding Mountain NP purchased a fleet of electric vehicles for use in the park. Great idea! They're all parked now because of some legal liability issue?!? How can this be a liability issue (they say their too quiet and could run someone over....christ, tie a bell to the bloody bumper and get your heads out of your ass). That's our government and insurance industry at work. If these are impassable roadblocks, what happens when real problems arise?  
Flying is a necessary part of government business and see long as it is reasonable and economical...meh.  
 
It is up to us to make the necessary changes but their is no indication that we are capable. When oil hit $120 a barrel, sales of big SUV's dropped. Costs dictated consumer decisions. As soon as the prices came down again, sales of small cars tanked, to the point where Hyundai faces restructuring because they bet the farm on small cars and not enough production of mid to large SUV's. People are too short sighted to make big choices, they don't do any risk analysis, they're to impatient to be rewarded later. They need satisfaction immediately regardless of the cost or damage.  
That is why governments have to act, even in some small way.  
 
So as citizens let's be a part of the solutions and demand better from our governments. All levels. Write them, tell them. Make them keep their promises or we'll get someone who will.  
 
I respect your opinion, I just don't see people changing their habits as long as we subsidize big oil and keep doing things the way we always have.  
 
Just my opinion.  
 
Marpet  
 

Carbon Tax. Why? It's purpose is to stop Global Warming...oops, I mean Climate Change. The UN said that the consensus of scientists say that manmade carbon dioxide is the main factor in Climate Change. The debate is over, and the best way to reverse climate change is to put a price on carbon. What a crock of crap.  
 
The Consensus Of Scientists report from the UN has been debunked. It's a fraud. It's a cherry picked report basically asking 2 questions. Out of the thousands of scientific papers written on climate change, 79 we selected. Out of the 79, 77 said man has some influence on climate change. NOT THE CAUSE. We are all being lied too. Look it up.  
The science says, we have an effect. An effect so minuscule that if all man made CO2 were to immediately stop, you couldn't even measure the effects on climate.  
 
The Climate is Changing. It's always changed. Ice sheets, glaciers are going to melt, no matter what we do. They are going to shrink, and grow, just like they have for thousands of years. We are still exiting an ice age.  
 
CO2 is not a pollutant. It doesn't cause smog. You breath out around 40000ppm CO2 with every breath you exhale. More if you are more active. The atmosphere has around 435ppm. It's been way higher before we were ever around, dropped down, and has risen again. C02 is not the enemy. It's not our biggest threat to survival on this planet. To say it is, and that we are the sole cause of climate change is delusional, arrogant, and wrong.  
To put a tax on CO2, on every aspect of our western way of life, to stop climate change is a scam on the people.  
UN Carbon reduction targets will never be met. We, as Canadians because of the Paris accord will be on the hook for billions, if not trillions of $ to be given to the UN for not meeting the targets. We will have no say. We will be dictated by the UN, a non elected entity. Read the Paris Accord agreement. You will wonder WTF is going on. It's frightening.  
 
Don't be Sheeple. Carbon tax is a scam. There is a reason the majority of countries eliminated it. Educate yourself.  
We are not communist. We are not under a dictatorship. To punish us with a Carbon Tax for our western way of life is wrong. It's a redistribution of wealth. Baa baa baa.

Zekeland said "So if the lower income earners receive a tax exemption and nobody else.... What incentive is there for everyone else to reduce their carbon footprint ?     A middle income or high income earner can do everything in their power to reduce their footprint but in the end there is no carbon tax return to them.     It's simply another tax. Another way to redistribute the wealth in this country. It's the erosion of the middle class.     Didn't Austrailia scrap their carbon plan after 2 years ? It wasn't really working the way they had planned.     With our power prices having steep increases in the next 5 years, we don't really need another carbon tax. Mb Hydro figures our power rates will increase 30-40% over next five years. Ouch!! I believe that is our carbon tax. "

The middle and high income earners wont be paying as much tax if they choose to make greener choices. If not then they pay more... that''s the point.  
 
Manitoba''s power rates are a completely different issue. That is just poor management.  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2017-01-07 18:26:54

Look people I have read this article and let me tell you we are taxed to death and what make you all think that if this tax was imposed that it would all be spent on this. The government has to be responsible for the money that they get as they have enough from what we already pay for taxes that if they spent it right would be able to fix this and many other problems that the country has and by the way remember this income tax we have is voluntary tax that was imposed to help pay for the war well the war is over for how many years. I agree another scam.  
 
Edited by TCMC, 2017-01-08 07:28:46

Everyone will pay more. This tax will affect the price of everything. The cost of groceries will go up, because the cost to transport them to the store will be affected. Big companies are not going to eat that, it's going to be passed on. The cost of going to a movie is going up, it costs more to heat the theatre, so it gets passed on. And on and on it goes.  
 
Make no mistake, this is a tax, pure and simple. More money for the government to spend or redistribute unwisely.