Discussions

that city 'brass' voted not to replace the 8th St. bridge, for Bdn residents, but we have 'millions' of dollars to put into flood plain recreation?? With all the infrastructure that needs cash, this seems like a frilly use of hard earned property tax dollars. Has this been thought through??

unbreakable1 said "I largely agree with dune. Do we really need to develop an area which is prone to flooding even on a 'dry year'. How many times for example which The Elanor Kidd Garden been closed for a month in the past few years due to flooding? You can dike and build all a person want but Mother Nature always has a way of beating a dike. Just get a nice snow pack like we have south of here (Minot and especially Bismarck of what a few North Dakota friends told me) or whatever comes from the mismanaged Assiniboine River and we have a bigger headache then we currently have. Sorry, I'm not sold on the idea and that's includes looking at the plans. For the record, I still don't like The Corral Centre and the development of that whole area. "

The snowpack in the Souris Sub-basin (Minot and Bismarck) doesn't impact flows at Brandon. The Souris flows into the Assiniboine at Treesbank, MB. We are most susceptible to snowpack in the Qu'Appelle Sub-basin

Mr. Smith said "    unbreakable1 said "I largely agree with dune. Do we really need to develop an area which is prone to flooding even on a 'dry year'. How many times for example which The Elanor Kidd Garden been closed for a month in the past few years due to flooding? You can dike and build all a person want but Mother Nature always has a way of beating a dike. Just get a nice snow pack like we have south of here (Minot and especially Bismarck of what a few North Dakota friends told me) or whatever comes from the mismanaged Assiniboine River and we have a bigger headache then we currently have. Sorry, I'm not sold on the idea and that's includes looking at the plans. For the record, I still don't like The Corral Centre and the development of that whole area. " The snowpack in the Souris Sub-basin (Minot and Bismarck) doesn't impact flows at Brandon. The Souris flows into the Assiniboine at Treesbank, MB. We are most susceptible to snowpack in the Qu'Appelle Sub-basin "

Maybe I wasn't clear. Take the snow pack what they have in Minot, Bismarck (and worse) and have that in the Assiniboine River basin. Then we will have a huge problem regardless how diked up etc. they make the whole Discovery Centre, Corral Centre and area. Its bound to happen and likely more frequently then one can imagine. We're not going to have tame snow packs forever.  
 
Edited by unbreakable1, 2017-01-07 19:41:56

I'm personally excited about this redevelopment! I love our river corridor, and how accessible it can be to all our citizens, regardless of income bracket.  
 
Yeah, it's $30M, but isn't that over YEARS, if not decades? I broke my heart to see the beautiful riverbank stuff wiped out in recent years, and it's worth the money to spend it on things that will improve our overall quality of life for all citizens.  
 
No one liked the 8th Street bridge proposals, and the current redesign of 1st/18th seem to address most of the issues.

So, I'm gone all day and found out people are angry with me, because of my rant. Heard about it, but missed it before it was removed. I'm sorry that a made you have to do some research to spite me and I'm sorry that I made you cry... joke! Lighten up, please. You're no fun when it's too serious. My opinion wasn't meant to upset the "pro development party". And Yes, Mr Smith I didn't look over the final "Big plan", simply because it's been wished for and wished for over and over 'till I hear nothing but background static and read nothing but blurry thoughts. That's my bad for loosing my attention. However with this town, it's too easy to tune these things out. Like the 8th street bridge, the golf course, Brandon Downtown Biz/Renaissance Brandon, the many dreams of the Strand theater, the Keystone constantly wishing for more money to expand and the list goes on and on, year after year. I never noticed (on here or anywhere else, but I'll admit I'm not looking for it every day either -thus: the "low key" statement) that it was actually and finally brought up before the city council yesterday. Again, my bad. But I got to ask... What draws all of you to the water? Why are some of you so fixated to have the city to attempt once again to make the riverbank back to a groomed park and public sports & recreational area? Just restore it to a natural setting with paved trails cutting through as the only man-made structure interrupting it. It can never be a park like the Forks. Winnipeg is managed by the Red River Floodway and the Portage Diversion. Those rivers levels there are controlled, ours is not. We can never have that luxury. And when Winnipeg is threatened with a possible "high water event", they are willing the sacrifice farmland and the Interlake region simply because they have the numbers. And that's a big point. They are a large city with more people to serve with way more money to have options on facilities for the public. If the people of Brandon wants to compare itself to Winnipeg, don't use the Forks as an example. Try the Assiniboine Forest in Charleswood. Not the park/Zoo at the river (we can't afford that), but the natural preservation sitting between Roblin Blvd and Wilkes Ave. Trees and trails, that's all it is. Cheap and simple. ..The way I like it. That's all we need. Just some trails. And some lights would be nice too. Done. We need to stop kidding ourselves that we can afford this plan to "return to the river" and move on with viable projects out of the flood zone.  
 
Early on with this Master plan Idea, I was skeptic that unless another level of government was paying for it, we're not getting anything big done. Not now and not in twenty years from now. I've convinced myself that this plan would become just another overpriced, out-of-date document full of expensive ideas that entertains the imagination of the public, but eventually gets shelved and forgotten. Who knew they were serious? Not me. The earth based amphitheater has now turned into a roofed stage with a screen. ...That was new to me. What else did I miss yesterday that's changed? And again with the trees and shrubs... Why? Whatever gets planted from the nursery hasn't lasted these past years. This is what irked me in my first rant. Someone has convinced the council to push for the fancy and the unpracticable. That needs to stop. So I b!tched about it. And maybe some else will relate to it and speak up. And so on and so on. I'm not against cleaning up and fixing what can be saved along the river... I'm against spending more then we need to and suggesting those to stop focusing on just this one area of town.  
 
Maybe I need to be the first to say it (yup, I'm b!tching again)... I hate having the Canada Day events down there. I hate the bottleneck of traffic congestion getting there. I hate driving my minivan through a ditch and parking in a soft field, then walking in the ditch with small kids to get to the event. I hate that fact that when you're there, you're stuck there until the bitter end. I hate the lack of vendor options for food. I hate having only one option to get the hell out of there when it's done. I hate the fact that two thirds to three quarters of the city has to drive to that area to watch the fireworks then scramble to get out of there before traffic backs up. I hate the fact that everyone I know hates where the Canada Day celebrations and does nothing in voicing for changing the location (myself included). The Discovery Center is and will always be a awful venue to host large events. Adding a expensive stage and a few more parking stalls, changes nothing. I can't be the only one who thinks this? The Keystone is so much better equipped to handle large public events. Why must we continue punishing ourselves? This is my main reason in opposing some of the future development... it doesn't work as a venue at the river. It never did. I did liked it as a park. However, I do believe it shouldn't be restored as city park again, but as a natural preserve.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.  
 
And it's just one opinion, you don't need to prove me wrong.

I haven't spoken to one person that thinks this is a good idea (the silent majority). What a massive waste of tax dollars.  
 
The riverbank should be left alone except for trails.

TEN said "Like others have said, this has been in the works for years, ever since it was decided to try to work with the river instead of controlling it.     What I find interesting is all the people in at least 2 or three discussions every year that complain about the lack of things to do or attractions in Brandon and when the city wants to build an "attraction" (for lack of a better word), everyone starts complaining about spending too much money. "

I'm not saying don't develop, just don't develop on a flood plain.  
Even if it's built up to be out of the water when it floods the place will not be usable.

complete waste of tax dollars. I wouldn't spend a cent for the discovery area. IMO there shouldn't be anything there (even corral centre) and focus the money in a different part of the city!

I agree with you, maintaining a park and walking trails in that area seems to be feasible, sure we are armchair engineers like Mr smith says but you dont need a degree to see the history and the outcomes of past, or the outcomes that other real engineers have made, Winnipegs flood control defiantly affects and sacrifices other areas in order to maintain some control but honestly as theses "historic" events keep happening at some point we should come to the conclusion that control is an illusion, cant remember the year but counsel enacted a non build zone in the area, were all their advisers to be ignored now because we want it? doesnt make senses  
 
personally i dont use the area much at all (especially since its looked awful from the road for a while now) so naturally im not for spending money on it but i do understand that community projects even if its not my tastes are a benefit, just which ones and where are the concern, I admit i heard rumors of discovery center redevelopment on the radio (not many read the newspapers now a day that i know of) but unlike the 8th st bridge there was no talk of the price tag which i believe is what people are now reacting too, if it was a simple redevelopment with a low price tag not sure it would be an issue and looking at the links that were provided by supporters only one had a price tag and it has already gone up 5 mill in about a year, if i remember right, which is what happens with theses projects, having the 30 mil spread over years makes the project more manageable for sure but with ever year passing the cost will also go up so i expect this will either cost more then 30 mill or the project will not be completed as the years come and go along with new ideas ect .  
 
i guess we will see what happens, would be a nice area if it could be maintained but i do agree that having the area for large events isnt the best place and maybe we should have looked elsewhere for a amphitheater ect

This is not the place to "rebuild" I am all for maintaining, if not improving it as a "Natural" site. Improve and perhaps add some walking paths, elevate the path that leads to the walking bridge, that is underwater every year. But no to anything more. Its not a great draw, and an amphitheatre will not change that, we live in a climate where it's not feasible to pay that much money for infrastructure that will be used in the few summer months we have. It will never be "The Forks" or anything close. Keep it as a green space, improve it as a green space.

ctct said "Curious to know if soundoff in Brandon Sun had any comments about Riverbank development?     Anyone know who owns the BrandonSun? Winnipeg person?     Edited by ctct, 2017-01-14 06:47:24"

Haven't seen anything in soundoff!

The whole idea is absurd, Kirkcaldy West bound isn't even wide enough to turn into the Corral Centre if there are more than 3 cars at a red light. After the last snow, the paths at the Discover Centre were not cleared for over 10 days, during the summer they are overrun with thistle bushes, and there is a light standard that has been close to falling over since the flood, it's still not fixed. Clean it up, make people want to use it, but anything beyond makes no sense, especially not $30mil worth.

walked thru yesterday, or at least as far as we could before the river crossed over the walking paths, the riverbank itself is eroding quickly behind the discovery centre, is this really a place worth putting our tax dollars into...Absolutely NOT. The water is up the boat launch and running into the fields. Its a mess.

You can`t compare the Discovery Centre with The Forks in Winnipeg. The Forks are in the centre of Winnipeg and has lots of commercial and tourism development, making it a real destination. I would compare the Discovery Centre more with Oak Hammock Marsh - a nice nature retreat, but not a major draw for the general public or tourists.  
I think that maintaining trails is great - more investment than that is misplaced.

Agree with Tiger Lily and daisychain. It will never be The Forks, the bank erosion isn't slowing and the design/traffic in that Corral Centre area is a disaster. Why would this be an ideal place to invest in and try to lure more people to?  
 
I heard the master plan includes a "Leo Mol" Sculpture Garden and that Brandonites would have to grow up and be like bigger cities and adopt the "Pay & Park" system and/or park in Home Depot parking lot for large events. Haven't they heard this is Brandon, not Winnipeg.  
 
I still can't believe $30m is being spent on this flood plain development to keep repairing it. How much more $ is going to be needed to fix the area after each flood?  
 
Nice place to walk around, get some fresh air and sunshine but that's about all. I can't support throwing good money after bad for any development in a flood plain. (imo, shouldn't be permitted at all) Mother Nature doesn't care how much money you throw at her, she's going to do what she wants to do and when.

I was reading the January 1994 edition of the National Geographic where they covered the huge Mississippi River flood. I found it interesting that it was mentioned that levees (channeling water through a small space) make things worse and leaving a flood plain as is is better.  
 
What I see is backing things up along the Upper Assiniboine and forcing water through a small channel prolongs the agony & causes more damage than having a clear path in the natural flood plain. If there was no development and the river was left as is natural, the water would be gone much sooner and there would be less heartache & worry, and less money spent on prevention and repair.  
 
I actually agree with those who say nothing should have been developed in this area a second time around after having moved out farmers in the past in Brandon siting flooding issues on the river.  
 
I also agree with not comparing the river in Brandon to the Forks. They do have flooding, but most of the water is diverted even before it reaches Winnipeg, so that really is not a great comparison. It is not a true measure of Assiniboine flooding.  
 
I don't claim to know engineering, but observation (especially on a repeated basis) is a valuable component in any event.  
 
I will not argue about it, but just adding my opinion and observations to your discussion here.

When I first saw this I thought what? It was nice the way it was Riverbank at Discovery center but yes there is no parking and floods causing more issues. Why are we spending money on something like this when our roadways and City streets need repairs and yes the 8th street bridge we have no money for that but millions for building a park and purchasing sculptures come on.

just read on the City FB page that this is a go, with a 1 million dollar loan to the RDC. Has anyone who was involved in this insane decision actually been to the RDC this flood season? There was no access to the foot bridge, the pathways were under water, the boat ramp was underwater, which made its way into the field off Kirkcaldy. Who actually thought this was a good place to build a "Festival" site. The riverbank behind the centre is eroding at a rapid rate. Wow, this is an insane way to spend taxpayers $$ when they can't even come up with a permanent way to stop the water coming over Grand Valley.

daisychain said "just read on the City FB page that this is a go, with a 1 million dollar loan to the RDC. Has anyone who was involved in this insane decision actually been to the RDC this flood season? There was no access to the foot bridge, the pathways were under water, the boat ramp was underwater, which made its way into the field off Kirkcaldy. Who actually thought this was a good place to build a "Festival" site. The riverbank behind the centre is eroding at a rapid rate. Wow, this is an insane way to spend taxpayers $$ when they can't even come up with a permanent way to stop the water coming over Grand Valley. "

I am not a supporter of the $30 million Masterplan at RDC.  
 
The fundraising efforts have accumulated to $900k, half of what is needed to get this Festival Park underway. Depending on fundraising success, if they wait a year to start, the project cost goes up about 100k. If they wait 2 years, there is over 200k added to the project cost. This is apparently the reason they came to the city for a loan. To get started and not incur additional costs if they have to wait for fundraising money. What I fear is, this loan will be forgiven at some point, for some reason. I consider this fiscally irresponsible.  
 
I'm not sure why this $1m loan from the city to RDC s interest-free. The city uses space at RDC and I'm pretty sure rent isn't free.  
 
If fundraising is somehow slowed to nil, how will they pay the city back the loan? Lois MacDonald said they will have money coming in because they rent out to tenants (one being the City of Brandon) and in 2018 RDC will own the building as their mortgage will be paid off.  
 
Another pay back suggestion in the event that fundraising the other half fails, would be for the city to take the money out of the capital $$ the city already GIVES the Riverbank.  
 
Lois noted that this year's flood was a good thing to experience because it showed them where the water was. The water came in from the east from the river at the boat ramp and it was gone in a few days. What was neglected to be said was, what happens when this Festival Park area is underwater for months, perhaps all summer not days? Expensive, inaccessible, unusable swamp.  
 
There have already started bringing in fill to the area where the amphitheatre will be. Apparently, this structure will not be touched by flood waters and anything that is, will be able to be hosed down. I wonder how many times walkway can be saturated under water before they are ruined and need replaced.  
 
I just don't support the vision or believe this $30million project will be the success they are hoping for. I certainly don't support an interest free loan from the city when they already are given capital cash every year.  
 
The city and some residents know that property tax increases in the last few years were not necessary as city revenue $ show and therefore, they CHOSE to gouge us. It is greedy and we deserve better. I state this because this interest free loan is just another kick in the tax payer teeth and on the very same night law enforcement were given their salary increments. It's very hard to be supportive and remain supportive of Brandon projects.  
 
One other point is that while I understand growth and prosperity and forward-thinking projects are necessary here, this is Brandon. We are a small city surrounded by our farming communities. Do we really need and want all things similar to Winnipeg?

Many of you know me. I'm not quick to support projects - I take my time and try to think through every side.  
After a lot of thought, and thorough review, I have joined the group working on this development.  
I firmly believe in investing in my community. The plan makes a lot of sense and I encourage people to head on down to the Riverbank Discovery Centre and check out the plan.  
Many of you know how I feel about taxes and wasteful spending. You may also know how I feel about community investment. I'm very happy to support this project.

kerry auriat said "Many of you know me. I'm not quick to support projects - I take my time and try to think through every side.   After a lot of thought, and thorough review, I have joined the group working on this development.   I firmly believe in investing in my community. The plan makes a lot of sense and I encourage people to head on down to the Riverbank Discovery Centre and check out the plan.   Many of you know how I feel about taxes and wasteful spending. You may also know how I feel about community investment. I'm very happy to support this project. "

works out and it is deemed a success. But people are worried about flooding and rightly so. I absolutely loved the Eleanor Kidd Gardens but look what happened to them.  
 
I guess a lot of us are worried about tax increases. A lot of people are struggling Kerry. It's hard for us to keep paying for all this ideas, despite our tax base increasing the rate we pay still goes up.  
 
I try and keep up with the news and let me tell you, the city has a lot of people working that have a ton of ideas of 'what Brandon needs'.  
 
Every time we turn around another high paying managerial position is created. When does it stop? I don't see an end.

I don't understand your support of this project.  
The RDC does have a place in Brandon as a natural place to go for a walk and observe wildlife that lives along the rivers edge.  
As for the rest of the plan to further develop the area is just asinine.  
The city has the perfect spot to develop the very same project at the Keystone Center. Plenty of parking already to go. Lots of access points in and out of the facility.(only one way in and out of the RDC)  
Capital cost spending involved in the development of the RDC would be better spent on the Keystone site where there are already festivals happening.

The Keystone is a perfect spot for such an attraction, they already have the Folk Fest there every year, there is loads of parking and access in an out is a breeze. RDC...One way in, and one way out, if you are not held up at the light, which are not synced at all. You can't even make it from Discovery Drive to 18th with out getting a red. Traffic control? Kirkcaldy is 2 lanes, already busy, I could go on. Its insane, the location for this venue is all wrong. RDC will now be a social hub instead of the wildlife refuge it was meant to be.

I also agree with Dune. Other than a nice spot for a nature walk, I think you will find that the RDC does not have appeal for the majority of Brandonites. The location makes no sense for an event centre. Put your energy and money into the Keystone Centre which is centrally located, has lots of parking with good access from several directions, and will not flood.

Tiger Lily said "I also agree with Dune. Other than a nice spot for a nature walk, I think you will find that the RDC does not have appeal for the majority of Brandonites. The location makes no sense for an event centre. Put your energy and money into the Keystone Centre which is centrally located, has lots of parking with good access from several directions, and will not flood. "

It's probably too late for any changes to be made in regards to having the project at the KC grounds. I have heard that the stage desperately needs to be replaced?

Tiger Lily said "I also agree with Dune. Other than a nice spot for a nature walk, I think you will find that the RDC does not have appeal for the majority of Brandonites. The location makes no sense for an event centre. Put your energy and money into the Keystone Centre which is centrally located, has lots of parking with good access from several directions, and will not flood. "

I agree with this too. RDC does not appeal to me or my family at all. I think we've gone there 4 times ever, and everytime we do go we question why we went. Parking there is a huge headache. We've stopped participating in Canada day celebrations, due to its location. We had a fantastic time when it was held at the keystone a few years back. We do attend the Keysone in a regular basis, and would personally rather see the energy and money go there.  
Seems like a waste of money to build at RDC.  
Just my opinion!

This is Brandon! Our counsel has changed their minds many times throughout it's history. They may never see that million come back, but I think we already knew that. The Keystone grounds is the place to have major venues established. I said it back in January, before there was a hint of a flood this spring. ...And now after the flooding for 2017, it has galvanized our resistance for wanting any development brought near the river ever again.  
 
All we need is a strong voice on the council. Someone who can splash the cold, muddy river water of reality on the daydreaming members representing the people and who are supposed to be making logical decisions for our city. We need to be heard and start casting some doubt on some of these "big" plans down by the river. ...Especially that bloody amphitheater/stage that no one will want to go to, if it sits in a squishy, mosquito infested field that can't be easily accessed or maintained.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

once upon a time.... where it was stated that the city should allow the river bank to 'naturalize' meaning the river goes where it goes and just to allow it?  
 
Wasn't that info released in a Master Plan?

Spend the $$$ at the Keystone and leave the riverbank for wildlife habitat instead

I absolutely think there are some very constructive comments on here. Trust me when I tell you the people at the RDC understand they are in a floodplain.  
The designs are built to take into account several elements, including using materials that can handle future flooding, and good use of the topography.  
Ultimately, I like the plan. I understand and appreciate the other comments I'm hearing on ebrandon. I will do my best not to let you down.