Discussions

That doesn't mean all women should not have the vote.

Tater said "That doesn't mean all women should not have the vote. "

Sorry to be blunt, but that makes no sense as a comparison, voting is equal amongst every race and gender.

But just because someone doesn't use their rights doesn't mean others should lose that right.  
 
If it's not the 1800s lets take away all the land entitlements that were given to settlers. And if someone inherited wealth from their parents or grandparents of any kind let's take that too, it's not really fair right? Let's make it an even playing field. It's 2017, even Steven.

Johnbisonbear said "    70`s guy said "You make a good point, to an extent. I would rather see Native entrepreneurs playing on a level field with non native entrepreneurs though. What I mean, is that an ''''Urban Reserve" would not pay their fair share of taxes while potentially harming the businesses that do pay very heavy taxes to operate. Yes, I''''m all for Native businesses as long as we all play the same game. Otherwise it will breed resentment from people trying to make a living and we''''ll wonder why we live in a "us and them" society.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:44:08" in the Brandon Sun article today it states that an urban reserve would pay a 'fee for service' and it would be the same amount as any other business that pays a tax bill. An urban reserve would also be 'on the hook' to pay for local improvements just like any other business.     That being said I don't know why some people are so against urban reserves. I guess they are under the assumption that a city would not benefit financially from a urban reserve. "

The "Urban reserves" pays taxes just like any other business then why call it a "Reserve". Just call it a business venture by aboriginales with no native/ aboriginal benefits. If this is the case, then yes I would support such an aboriginal venture. I still doubt however that they won't be treated differently because of the " urban reserve" status. Remove that "tag" and I'm onboard with you. Are you in or must it be deamed an "Urban reserve" for some unknown benefit? Must be some benefit for specifying "Urban Reserve" , otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this at 12:52 am, lol!

Usually an urban reserve is a way of settling a legal land claim. So that's why, 70s Guy. It's a pretty good reason, and what's the issue anyway? It seems as though you're saying other people might be racist, so back down and be anonymous.

Tater said "Usually an urban reserve is a way of settling a legal land claim. So that's why, 70s Guy. It's a pretty good reason, and what's the issue anyway? It seems as though you're saying other people might be racist, so back down and be anonymous. "

Problem with an "urban reserve" if paying taxes like all other businesses. Why call it an "Urban reserve" as 'the term " reserve" usually entitles special status. So why even call it a "Reserve" in the first place if there's no tax benefits? Or am I missing something?

I'm partially Native and refuse to get special treatment because it goes against everything we should strive for in society. People can integrate into society and keep their culture at the same time, a lot of immigrants do it all the time.  
 
We shouldn't pin the sins of the father on the children.  
What happened in the past was terrible but that doesn't mean we should use it to take land from grandchildren of settlers. Ever hear the saying 2 wrongs don't make a right?

I have totally heard the saying two wrongs don't make a right. So why make a wrong by once again suggesting that First Nations are getting special treatment by giving what is required by law by the legal treaties? That's not special, that's actually doing what is supposed to be done.  
 
Part of the point of an urban reserve is that it DOESNT take away land from the grandchildren of settlers! THAT IS THE POINT! It's a way of equitably settling a land claim without displacing anyone, but still giving decent economic benefit in return for the claim, ITS FRICKING BEAUTIFUL!!!! And STILL people are questioning if it's TOO GOOD TO ABORIGINAL PEOPLE!!!!!!  
 
If you feel that whatever entitlements you have due to your background are too special for you, that's your business. IF my sibling doesn't want her stared inheritance, that's fine, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have mine. Get it?  
 
I have witnessed extreme racism against First Nations people here in Canada, including by newcomers, because it's the one group they learn they can be disrespectful to, because their treatment has by and large been incredibly unfair, abusive, and has not been shared properly in the history classes of the schools in this country. THAT is going to change, at least in Manitoba, and if a bunch of dinosaurs gave to be dragged kicking and screaming into REALITY then so be it. I'm not First Nations, my kids are mixed and have nothing to gain by any of this, except we ALL have SO MUCH to gain by living in a just society FINALLY.  
 
How does fairness and equity go against what you think we should be striving for as a society? First Nations people didn't come here ten years ago to escape from terrible conditions, they shouldn't have to be stepped on in their own legal home, to equate their situation with that of newcomers is a total non starter and I'd really like to see why that is fair at all. Newcomers didn't have their children taken away by the government of Canada. Even Japanese Canadiens who were interned in Concentration camps in Canada during WW2 have had that historic wrong acknowledged and have been given public apology and finacial compensation, so WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG with doing what our government is SUPPOSED TO BY INTERNATIONAL TREAY LAW??????

Since I have already stated I really know nothing about Urban Reserves, I have a two part question. The first is if an Urban Reserve is created there will hopefully be job opportunities, will these jobs be available to non aboriginal people, the second part is will take home pay be equall between aboriginal and non aboriginal people. Notice I asked about take home pay, since I believe that is why most people accept jobs. If the pay base is equall and one party is exempt from provincial, and federal income taxes then this has the potential to divide people, not unify them.

I don't know the details of whether income earned on the urban reserve would be exempt from income taxes for those Status Indians (I use this as a legal term only to differentiate between eligible and ineligible folks). This exemption from taxation however isn't really anyone's business and if someone who doesn't have this exemption doesn't like it, that's like me not liking the fact that you inherited a trust fund from your family that has a capital gains tax exemption: nice for, but just a petty jealousy on my end.  
 
In fact, employees of a company doing the same job and earning the same gross pay will have many differences in their tax status, depending on whether they have dependents such as a spouse, children, disabled siblings or parents or grandparents they care for, if they give money to charities or are members of a religious order, if they have investments or choose to invest in RRSPs, if they live in a remote area, if their child is disabled, if they are a student paying tuition and books expenses, etc. etc. etc.  
 
I saw a great quote about caring about what other people "get" and comparing to yourself:  
 
The only time you should be looking at your neighbour's plate is to make sure they have enough  
 
It's pure bloodyminded selfishness that makes people ask about whether someone else pays tax on this or that. If someone else has good benefits at their workplace, I say GOOD FOR THEM! If someone else has a union that has negotiated compensation that is good for them, GOOD! If First Nations can put members in a good situation with employment, GOOD! Like, you already DON'T KNOW someone else's take home pay ANYWAY, or even if it's the same as yours you don't know what they get back at tax time because of other circumstances in THEIR LIFE.  
 
People need to get it through their head that it's not all about them.  
 
Like really.  
 
We can give tax holidays to developers making profit hand over fist, but if it's a First Nation development proposal that's good for EVERYONE, it's got to be nickel and dimed to death. It's sickening and that should tell you that it's actually our sick society that thinks that is A-OK.

What land claim would an Urban reserve settle? Does an Urban reserve allow people who leave the reserve the ability to maintain treaty rights privileges? This information helps us understand the reason for forming an Urban Reserve.

I only read the first three quarters of the responses to this thread so forgive me if my comment is redundant. Those who suggest we need integration and unity rather than separate rights for Indigenous people would benefit from a history lesson. I don't think many non-Indigenous people would be willing to give up what they gained from their treaty relationship, and it's ludicrous to expect Indigenous people to be ok with phasing out their treaty rights.

70`s guy said "    Johnbisonbear said "    70`s guy said "You make a good point, to an extent. I would rather see Native entrepreneurs playing on a level field with non native entrepreneurs though. What I mean, is that an ''''Urban Reserve" would not pay their fair share of taxes while potentially harming the businesses that do pay very heavy taxes to operate. Yes, I''''m all for Native businesses as long as we all play the same game. Otherwise it will breed resentment from people trying to make a living and we''''ll wonder why we live in a "us and them" society.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:44:08" in the Brandon Sun article today it states that an urban reserve would pay a 'fee for service' and it would be the same amount as any other business that pays a tax bill. An urban reserve would also be 'on the hook' to pay for local improvements just like any other business.     That being said I don't know why some people are so against urban reserves. I guess they are under the assumption that a city would not benefit financially from a urban reserve. " The "Urban reserves" pays taxes just like any other business then why call it a "Reserve". Just call it a business venture by aboriginales with no native/ aboriginal benefits. If this is the case, then yes I would support such an aboriginal venture. I still doubt however that they won't be treated differently because of the " urban reserve" status. Remove that "tag" and I'm onboard with you. Are you in or must it be deamed an "Urban reserve" for some unknown benefit? Must be some benefit for specifying "Urban Reserve" , otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this at 12:52 am, lol! "

I think you hit the nail on the head! If we had heard of a FN building in Brandon and it was called an investment there would be no discussion. Call it a reserve and everybody gets their panties in a bunch, lol  
 
FYI, I hope when the FN do build it is more than a gas bar. I would love to see another store like 'Native Images' that was in the Shoppers Mall years ago.

I have not attending the meeting, I don't know what organization is proposing the urban reserve, or on what basis. Those are specific legal questions. However, Hayfield, what treaty rights privileges are you referring to? Having an urban reserve doesn't GIVE people Status, like what do you mean? One of the main reasons for an urban reserve is because most of the crown land available for settling land claims is bush or undesireable for development, so it's not really suitable since land should be able to be developed and have value into the future. So when there is land available in an urban area, it's more appropriate for commercial development. That's the same for anyone doing a commercial development, location and availability of services and market is very important. I don't know why this seems mysterious to people.  
 
Like if someone said here, I owe you 5 acres of land, do you want 5 acres of bush or 5 acres of land inside city limits, which do you want? Especially if you already have 5000 acres of bush?

 
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-19 09:10:02

I am SO SO tired of reading that us natives need to  
A) get over it  
B) we only have gas bars and vlt's  
C) don't pay taxes on things  
I didn't ecepext anything better from this discussion but I really hoped it would be better than that. We're not a plague. We don't just automatically come in and demand free stuff. We don't just know tax free gas cigarettes and putting money in vlt's.  
You guys are acting like natives are new to Brandon. It's disgusting. Just reading you discuss an entire races history and demeaning them to tax free cry babies.  
I just can't believe we can open a discussion about a race like that where some of you know nothing about and just be so sure that what you see is what you get. Even if there were a native that lived up to your societies standards, it still wouldn't be enough.

All this discussion tells me that for the most part there is too much "them and us".  
Until that ends and everyone is treated equally there will always be a division.  
When there are no more privileges from centuries ago and every one does their part to move forward the situation will get better for all.  
An urban reserve is still creating that division.

Are no easy solutions to the divisiveness that the British then Canadian and native leaders have established in Canada. There must be strong leadership from both sides and especially on the Aboriginal side that rise up and acknowledge that things must change and no amount of monies can fix the issues. It starts from within. Within the native communities to stop the current cycle of government dependance and provide for themselves. A true leader would be knocking on all surrounding business doors trying to find employment for band members. It may be found at Maple Leaf, Koch, Saputo or wherever. Then the Cheif along with government assisstance organizes transportation/ accommodation for band members in a transitional period so they can integrate successfully to live off reserve. That should be the goal and not building more "Reserve spaces". I'mnot talking about shutting down reserves as they could be used for a spiritual re-connection of sorts. Surely we can all agree that the status quo of Reserves in extremely remote areas do not benefit the well being of the reserves members. Integration is key to the indigenous people flourishing in he future. If one fails to se this, well there's nothing more that one can say and that person is oblivious to what it takes to strive. Urban Reserve does not help the natives in the long run and while likely hindering competing industries that are subject to full taxation.

Getting a little of topic here, but when looking at Maslow''s theory one could argue that it''s extremely difficult if not impossible to acheive the full hierarchy of needs. Looking at this, then one can conclude that natives will never thrive as a group on most remost reserves. Integration would provide more opportunities for personal satisfaction and achievements. All I''m saying is that reserves, while well intentioned in the beginning have been disastrous for our indigenous population. It only serves the Cheifs and those at the top the best.  
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-19 11:23:19

In reply to your comment about Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, it's a useful tool but outdated. Please google as I'm not a developmental psychologist.  
 
Eileen1950:  
In reply to your comment [i]All this discussion tells me that for the most part there is too much "them and us".  
Until that ends and everyone is treated equally there will always be a division.  
When there are no more privileges from centuries ago and every one does their part to move forward the situation will get better for all.  
An urban reserve is still creating that division.[/i]  
Creating fair and equitable land claims is part of reaching the possibility of treating people equally. How can you say when there are no more privileges from centuries ago when there are settler descendants reaping those benefits on their end RIGHT NOW TODAY???  
 
Creating fairness by getting rid of the rights of indigenous people is NOT FAIRNESS. THIS is what is meant by check your privilege. Canadians and Canada at large have benefitted GREATLY and continue to do so, as a result of the Treaties. You cannot in fairness say that indigenous people have to lose what little they have to make them equal to people who have benefitted from every other loss, that is GROSS.  
 
The government of this country and settlers have been benefitting from those treaties.  
 
Like, seriously educate yourself on the treaties people.

I was told that one should not be concerned what is on another persons plate, but it seems that much of this discussion is about what is on other people's plates.  
Tater would you like to present two peices of material for those following this topic, the two things that many people might like to read are, the treaties pertaining to this area, treaties one and two, as well as the dominions land act.  
I'm sort of busy with work today, it's one of the advantages of being privileged, so I won't be able to post it myself until later.

70's guy said: "Are no easy solutions to the divisiveness that the British then Canadian and native leaders have established in Canada. There must be strong leadership from both sides and especially on the Aboriginal side that rise up and acknowledge that things must change and no amount of monies can fix the issues. It starts from within. Within the native communities to stop the current cycle of government dependance and provide for themselves. A true leader would be knocking on all surrounding business doors trying to find employment for band members."  
 
eileen 1950 said: "All this discussion tells me that for the most part there is too much "them and us".  
Until that ends and everyone is treated equally there will always be a division.  
When there are no more privileges from centuries ago and every one does their part to move forward the situation will get better for all.  
An urban reserve is still creating that division."  
 
A weathered Heart said (in part): "Honestly. This separation of "race" and this bs about "check your privilege" needs to stop. And we wonder why there are so many problems in the world...  
 
Only one race people. The human race. We all bleed red. We need to stop looking at the past and look to the future. And to me, an urban reserve isn't good for our future."  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
 
The three statements above come very close to how I feel about the struggle we see daily as Canadians, between Native and non-Native Canadians. There is nothing that can be done to right the wrongs of the past. There is nothing that can be done to correct the situation as it stands today that is going to be, or even appear to be fair for all parties. Clearly there needs to be change, or, at least from my perspective there needs to be change. All of the posts in this thread would indicate that neither side is happy with things as they are today (please, if I'm wrong in this, correct me).  
 
For Canada to thrive its people have to come together, they have to work together and they all need to be pulling in the same direction. We sure don't have this now, and I really don't expect to see it in my lifetime. The Indian Act and the reserve system do nothing but promote divisiveness. Increasing the number of reserves or creating urban reserves only adds to this divisiveness and does nothing to create positive productive change for the future of Canada.  
 
I know I'm looking at this from my own perspective, but I also believe I'm looking at it from a place of reason with the best possible outcome for a better Canada.

don brown said "I was told that one should not be concerned what is on another persons plate, but it seems that much of this discussion is about what is on other people's plates.   Tater would you like to present two peices of material for those following this topic, the two things that many people might like to read are, the treaties pertaining to this area, treaties one and two, as well as the dominions land act.   I'm sort of busy with work today, it's one of the advantages of being privileged, so I won't be able to post it myself until later. "

How about you ask for YOURSELF. Anyone can google the Treaties, etc. How about look at the whole Treaty history, which the Magna Carta is inextricably linked with, from the French Indian Wars, the War of 1812 which preserved this country apart from the US, as well as every other international treaty recognized by the UN and by the Supreme Court of Canada.  
 
I don't need to educate all of stubborn Brandon who (with no evidence, logic, or interest in learning) have an opinion that an urban reserve wouldn't be good for Brandon. Like, how many people state they don't know anything about it but in their opinion it's not a good idea???!!  
 
I have stated earlier that for those who are interested they can contact the Treaty Relations Commission of Manitoba, they have a Speakers Bureau with very enlightening and educational workshops and presentations. Another good contact might be Kairos- you can book something called the Blanket Exercise. Again, anyone can google these.  
 
Also, how about looking up how many land claims that have gone to the Supreme Court have been decided against First Nations? THAT one I'll tell you, IT IS ZERO. What does that tell you?  
 
I am not totally sure what you're trying to say with your comment about being busy with work, I am not working today except on shovelling and trying to keep water out of my basement, but I ALSO have the privilege of working a full time job, a part time job, and being a single parent, so let's all make sure we appreciate the privileges we have in life. I enjoy the privilege of being white and born in this country. That is already like winning the lottery. I appreciate my life and my privilege, and I know not everyone has experienced the same privilege as me, but my daughters have indigenous heritage, and that by itself makes them statistically more likely to be raped, murdered, disappear, be the victim of spousal abuse, to be incarcerated, and for any crime perpetrated against them to be ignored by the police.  
 
THAT IS FACT. THAT IS STATISTICS, o:bjectIVE FACTS.

fargobob said "70's guy said: "Are no easy solutions to the divisiveness that the British then Canadian and native leaders have established in Canada. There must be strong leadership from both sides and especially on the Aboriginal side that rise up and acknowledge that things must change and no amount of monies can fix the issues. It starts from within. Within the native communities to stop the current cycle of government dependance and provide for themselves. A true leader would be knocking on all surrounding business doors trying to find employment for band members."     eileen 1950 said: "All this discussion tells me that for the most part there is too much "them and us".   Until that ends and everyone is treated equally there will always be a division.   When there are no more privileges from centuries ago and every one does their part to move forward the situation will get better for all.   An urban reserve is still creating that division."     A weathered Heart said (in part): "Honestly. This separation of "race" and this bs about "check your privilege" needs to stop. And we wonder why there are so many problems in the world...     Only one race people. The human race. We all bleed red. We need to stop looking at the past and look to the future. And to me, an urban reserve isn't good for our future."     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~     The three statements above come very close to how I feel about the struggle we see daily as Canadians, between Native and non-Native Canadians. There is nothing that can be done to right the wrongs of the past. There is nothing that can be done to correct the situation as it stands today that is going to be, or even appear to be fair for all parties. Clearly there needs to be change, or, at least from my perspective there needs to be change. All of the posts in this thread would indicate that neither side is happy with things as they are today (please, if I'm wrong in this, correct me).     For Canada to thrive its people have to come together, they have to work together and they all need to be pulling in the same direction. We sure don't have this now, and I really don't expect to see it in my lifetime. The Indian Act and the reserve system do nothing but promote divisiveness. Increasing the number of reserves or creating urban reserves only adds to this divisiveness and does nothing to create positive productive change for the future of Canada.     I know I'm looking at this from my own perspective, but I also believe I'm looking at it from a place of reason with the best possible outcome for a better Canada. "

I am not saying the Indian Act is perfect, far from it. But that is quite separate from the concept of urban reserves and from the Treaties. You state that nothing can be done to right the wrongs of the past. That is not true. I'd really like to know how actually following the treaties and making reparations is not going to increase fairness and equity in this country?  
 
Seriously. How is actually following the treaties and making reparations that follow the law without kicking settlers off land that was taken against the law NOT going to increase fairness? Who is being victimized by creating equity and fairness?  
 
You stated that those other statements come close to how you feel. Stop feeling for a minute and start THINKING. Why is it that you think an urban reserve is a bad idea? Considering most people on this thread have acknowledged they know nothing about it, but don't like the idea, then talk about unfairness, I'd really like to see the equation that explains that, because I can't see any actual reasons given.

You claim that righting the wrongs of the past is possible. I disagree, i don't believe we can ever make it right enough. I'd be curious to hear from you what exactly would right all the wrongs of the past. Is it money? Is it modern schools and hospitals fully staffed on all reserves? Is it as simple as one simple Urban Reserve? What would it be Tater? I and millions of Canadians would love to have an answer, so we can finally move on and right all the wrongs of the past and finaly lay the foundations that build on a united Canada.

Right ENOUGH? Well I don't know about that, but we can make it a damn sight BETTER! If you are in the wrong in a car accident, and you have no insurance, and you say, break their leg, and say they drive truck for a living, and will lose 2 weeks of income because of the injury, do you think you should be accountable to replace that income while they recuperate, or since you can't turn back time, TOO BAD THEY SHOULD JUST GET OVER IT AND YOU GO ON YOUR MERRY WAY, NO CONSEQUENCES ON YOUR END?  
 
I do not know everything, and since you're speaking on behalf of millions of Canadians, I sure am sorry I can't solve huge problems all by myself, I like that you seem to think it's possible!  
 
If you can't make it RIGHT ENOUGH doesn't mean you shouldn't try, that's one of the pillars of our justice system, like, seriously!  
 
There are already foundations to build on, they are called the Treaties, and the government of this country as well as those who have been benefitting from those treaties have been fighting doing what's right and lawful long enough.

I think what 70's guy is trying to ask is, what will make everything even and fair?  
 
As in your example of the car accident you pay all hospital bills, and lost wages.  
 
The question being asked is how to finally make it right so we can put it behind us, and move on without any one group being at an advantage or a disadvantage?  
 
I know people will say that no matter what, certain groups will have an advantage just for being white, but I am talking legally being fair and even. No treaties to try and figure out, just all made right finally. I am not saying that any one person can do everything to fix the current unequal situation, but if there was something that could make it right, what would make it right?

Here are some links for those who are interested:  
http://www.mediacoop.ca/blog/dru/15600  
 
http://www.trcm.ca/treaties/

http://www.brandon.ca/images/pdf/council/FN_UrbanDevelopmentAreas_PublicInfo.pdf

anonymous11111 said "I think what 70's guy is trying to ask is, what will make everything even and fair?     As in your example of the car accident you pay all hospital bills, and lost wages.     The question being asked is how to finally make it right so we can put it behind us, and move on without any one group being at an advantage or a disadvantage?     I know people will say that no matter what, certain groups will have an advantage just for being white, but I am talking legally being fair and even. No treaties to try and figure out, just all made right finally. I am not saying that any one person can do everything to fix the current unequal situation, but if there was something that could make it right, what would make it right? "

Well I'm not sure what you mean about putting it behind us? Legally fair is actually following the Treaties. That is the legal part, is actually accepting the Treaties and the rulings from the Supreme Court, and the Treaty Land Entitlements that exist, settling claims that are lawful and have been on the books for ages, that is a start. And Urban Reserves as they're called are a part of that settlement of Treaty Land Entitlements.  
 
Like, how about people stop fighting against the LAW. That would be a good start.