Discussions

gma said "People don't seem to realize that teachers don't get paid for the 2 months off in the summer. They are paid for a 10 months contract. Also, who else gets told when to take your holidays. Teachers have no choice of holidays for Christmas or spring break. I would assume most people would want the children to be taught by teacher that are receiving ongoing training. So tired of teacher bashing. And no, I'm not a teacher but I know many that work extremely hard for their students. "

That is my understanding too. If they're term/contract, they simply don't get paid for those 2 months. If they're tenured/permanent, they get what I've known as Leave with Income Averaging, meaning they're only getting paid 10 months, but then it's divided up so they get 12 (or 24 or 26 depending on the pay scheme) equal cheque to avoid that gap in pay.  
 
I've known a few teachers over the years, and most put in tons of hours on (unpaid) "holidays" to get ready and upgrade their education.  
 
I don't mind PD days. It was annoying when it was mid-week but the long weekends are good for the kids IMO. As long as they meet the required number of teaching days, what's the problem?

You do realize that teachers don’t actually get paid during the summer, right? It’s not like they have 10 weeks of paid vacation...

Let’s be real, I have tons of friends that wanted to be teachers because they get their Christmas holidays, spring break and all summer off. Sure they like kids, but this was huge. And have you heard teachers salaries lately? They don’t do too bad for 10 months of pay.  
At work we get a couple “PD days” a year. They happen during road bans when our work is slow. We schedule all our training during this time h2s, first aid, etc because when it’s busy we work our butts off. Absolutely we take our work home with us, we work through -49 outside and +40 outside. We do more than what’s required to please the clients.  
I’m not knocking teachers. I know most of them are there for the right reasons, they work hard, work after the school day, take care of whining kids, etc. But I don’t think asking them to take their PD days during the summer months is too much to ask.  
Just my opinion I guess.

We often hear children that don’t get a healthy breakfast have a hard time focusing on their school work.  
School breakfast programs are a fact of life in education because families can’t afford food.  
 
This thread was started by a very concerned farmer looking to find ways to improve education. My question to this hard working for 6 months of the year wheat farmer is this, “In an effort to lower food prices in Canada, should Canadians consider removing the 12 Billion dollar a year in subsidies we pay our farmers.”  
Farmers feed education  
 
Edited by loeog, 2018-10-25 21:17:26

Bothers me at times when anyone tries to place their importance in society. Not picking on firefighters, but lots of communities have volonteer fire services, ant those of us who rely on these people trust them with our lives, the same could be said about most professions. If the education system were to fail it would be replaced by something that would be different but would, with time, replace the old system.  
Over my life I have learned many trades, and learned them well enough to pass inspection, but I do not receive the wage of any of these trades. I've had great support from people like veterinarians or investment people, which allows me to diagnose and treat animals, but you always run into something where you call the vet. Once again wages do not reflect the things I have learned.  
I have always thought it was a mistake to try and judge the importance of others in society, or what they are worth. I learned this from my grandfather who made a point once with an old pocket watch, all the important parts were there, but one small gear was missing a tooth, you could hardly see it, but the watch would not work.  
I know I'm off topic, but at times it doesn't hurt for all of us to do a reality check.  
As for the big ag subsities I would like a link, I have a feeling I've been left off the list of recipients.

I too have been left off the subsidy list Don. I am not sure where the 12 billion figure came from but it is definitely not true.  
As far as teachers getting paid thru the summer-some divisions offer 12 monthly paychecks and some only 10 months.  
When you compare Canadian food prices to the rest of the developed world and especially Europe-our prices are low.  
Average teacher salary in Manitoba is about $85,000 so after deductions it is still a descent wage.  
As far as summer PD our local division offered it as an alternative but the Manitoba Teachers Society threatened a grievance because it was "an unfair benefit". So sometimes divisions hands are tied by MTS and Provincial Legislation

loeog said "We often hear children that don’t get a healthy breakfast have a hard time focusing on their school work.   School breakfast programs are a fact of life in education because families can’t afford food.     This thread was started by a very concerned farmer looking to find ways to improve education. My question to this hard working for 6 months of the year wheat farmer is this, “In an effort to lower food prices in Canada, should Canadians consider removing the 12 Billion dollar a year in subsidies we pay our farmers.”   Farmers feed education     Edited by loeog, 2018-10-25 21:17:26"

Are you talking about Trump's 12 billion dollar plan regarding tariff subsidy? What has that got to do with anything regarding PD days? I like the jab at the "6 month working farmer". Guess what....I guess like the teachers who after how many posts don't get paid for 2 months of the year. The farmer doesn't get paid until the grain is sold. So a farmer that doesn't work for 6 months doesn't get paid, the farmer that works for 6 months has to put up money in equipment, fuel, breakdowns, then sell grain in hopes to get a good price. Then they get paid...after bills. When it is harvest time very long hours are worked as time is limited to remove crops. I have never heard a farmer wanting more money for having to work extra. Bad storms wiped out a lot of pay for farmers. Does bad weather affect teachers?  
 
So instead of saying how hard teachers work cause everyone knows they work hard every day, just like nurses, firefighters, police, the guy standing out at -45 pumping your gas, the guy working the till at 7-11, the nursing home taking care of your elderly parents, the list goes on. And we all know now for clarity that teachers are on a 10 month contract with at least my family members have the option to spread your pay over the 12 months instead.  
 
Regarding PD days. They cost the division a lot of money in subs. I asked if the link I provided was the list of courses for PD days, if so I question what things like Scrapbooking does for educating our kids. Is there not opportunity to be more efficient on supplying PD days without having to add costs to the division?

Brenda.. said "    Giddyup said "There are many many careers that require a university degree and student loans and provide an essential service to the community....nurses, social workers, etc....all work hard and deserve respect, but none get the “days off” to recharge like teachers. And like I said in my earlier post...I’m not saying teachers don’t work hard and have an important job. I’m the first one to say they do, but basically 3 months off each year... who else gets that ??!! " When people go to University and chose their career, I am positive they know what their work hours will be like.     So, doctors, nurses work all sorts of days and shifts, that is what they would have known before they became one.     Teachers, we all know they get the summer off, Christmas. etc.     I also know that teachers buy a lot of stuff out of their own pockets for their classrooms these days, as extra funding is not there.     I graduated in 1980 (yes, a very long time ago) and I remember lots of in service days then. But things were different back then, I also remember being scared of my teacher and my parents if I did something wrong. Not these days...(a whole different topic). I am sure teachers could use some mental health days too. The respect for them is not there anymore.     Edited by Brenda.., 2018-10-24 20:05:03"

I have no sympathy for teachers having to buy stuff for the classroom. Other professions require that as well. Mechanics are a great example. They spend thousands on tools that are required for their job.

isn't it. Around the time that the majority of public schools are closed for a day and the majority of public school teachers attend provincial or divisional inservices.  
Its unfortunate that a large segment of the population see PD time as time poorly spent and seem to want schools to remain open, or at least have teacher PD on the public's terms.  
What many people do not realize is that these PD days aren't the be all and end all to a teaher's professional growth. Provincial days serve to expose teachers to trends that they may not ordinarily see. Divisional PD usually reflects the current focus of the Division.  
Requiring teachers to attend PD on their unpaid break opens another can of worms. Teachers cannot be paid outside of their contracts, so how can you require them to attend? In my 35+ years as a teacher, I've attended many PD sessions over the summer, but I chose to attend sessions that benefitted my students. I received no compensation. Ever.  
Its always amazed me that teachers ar a group forced to bear the brunt of public dissatisfaction, yet the service they provide is of the utmost importance.

Paul A said "isn't it. Around the time that the majority of public schools are closed for a day and the majority of public school teachers attend provincial or divisional inservices.   Its unfortunate that a large segment of the population see PD time as time poorly spent and seem to want schools to remain open, or at least have teacher PD on the public's terms.   What many people do not realize is that these PD days aren't the be all and end all to a teaher's professional growth. Provincial days serve to expose teachers to trends that they may not ordinarily see. Divisional PD usually reflects the current focus of the Division.   Requiring teachers to attend PD on their unpaid break opens another can of worms. Teachers cannot be paid outside of their contracts, so how can you require them to attend? In my 35+ years as a teacher, I've attended many PD sessions over the summer, but I chose to attend sessions that benefitted my students. I received no compensation. Ever.   Its always amazed me that teachers ar a group forced to bear the brunt of public dissatisfaction, yet the service they provide is of the utmost importance. "

So hopefully this can be answered by a teacher then.  
 
-In the collective agreement or elsewhere does it state that teachers do not have the option to have pd days before students start or during breaks such as Christmas or Spring Break.  
 
-Is this link on the first page what is taught on PD day? If so Scrapbooking? Enlighten me on the value to students.  
 
-Should pd days fall withing student days? Everyone knows that parents will just keep their kids home as what is the point in having a sub as nothing is actually taught in class these days.  
 
You mentioned not being paid for attending PD days. Base salary $38,680 over 195 days @ 8hrs/day is $24.79/hr. Standard work year for full time workers is usually 2080 hrs per year. That would give a wage of $18.60/hr. Not too shabby for a first year teacher. On the high end $101,328 over 195 days @ 8hrs/day is $64.95. If paid as average full time worker would be $48.71/hr. I would say teachers are fairly compensated for what they do.  
 
And nobody is making this out against the teachers. The original asking was if there was a better way to administer PD days without additional costs to the division, which it has done, and not to cause disruption in student learning, which it has done. What if the Brandon Transit workers shut down every few months for the day and took public service classes on how to deal with unruly riders and stuff like that. Bet there would be a thread on here asking why can't it be done at another time vs regular bus hours.

This talk of summer PD days would go away when you consider there would be 9 extra paid days in the summer. Considering BSD has 1500 employees, and teachers and support staff (ea’s) make up 90% or 1350 this extra 2 weeks pay would be huge. If you don’t think the the union wouldn’t fight for the extra pay you are delusional.

Everyone complains and complains and complains. Bashing teachers won’t help. If you wanted 13 weeks of holidays maybe you should have became a teacher instead of complaining about it constantly on social media.

London234 said "Everyone complains and complains and complains. Bashing teachers won’t help. If you wanted 13 weeks of holidays maybe you should have became a teacher instead of complaining about it constantly on social media. "

So what you are saying is there is no better way to incorporate PD days into the system?  
 
As for the union would want more wages to cover days outside current system....I have yet to find anywhere in the collective agreement the maximum days they are paid for. If the province said instead of 195 school days there will be 200. When it fluctuates by a few days does the wages adjust too?

Said no sympathy for teachers buying school supplies when mechanics buy tools. However-teachers buy things that get used up and are gone-and must be bought again. Tools-the mechanic buys his tools and then has them for years. If he goes to a new job-he can take his tools with him.  
 
I would expect that yes, extra days work during summer vacation would mean additional pay. The union would certainly fight for that, I have no doubt of that.  
 
Truthfully, some people seem very jealous of unionized jobs. Complain about teachers. Complain about firefighters. Complain about government workers. Their wages. Their days off. Their benefits. If you begrudge those things that others get, go after them for yourself. Get a unionized job and then you needn't be envious.  
 
Don't like teachers getting 2 months off in summer? Go to the US where they get 3 months off. Kids there learn the same, or more, in less time. I went to school there but came back here for my last 2 years of junior high. Those 2 years were a total repeat of the stuff-math, science, history, geography, everything-i had learned in lower grades there. It was shocking how far behind they were here.

I’m sure there are other options to incorporate pd days but leave that up to what’s best for the teachers/division and the professionals that make those decisions. Half the people who complain and think they know best about when these days should be have never worked in the education field or understand what these pd/admin days even i:nclude. It’s been said again that these days are split up so that teachers can plan with other during the year based on what goes on in the classroom throughout the year. Having a week of pd in the summer wouldn’t be much help if you don’t know the children in your class yet for the following year.

There seems to be confusion. This isn't about teachers time off. PD days are days the teachers still go to work but students do not attend school. It's like a few Fridays a year not a huge deal. What is the issue having your kids home some Friday's..  
 
The schools all meet the required amount of in class hours so even if the teachers took these days over the summer... When they are not being paid so doesn't make sense... Then school would let out six dahs earlier or whenever.. regardless of how they do it your kids will still be at school the same amount of time. Having a few long weekends throughout the hear I think is best. Kids DO experience burn out an extra day here and there is great for them and I enjoy that extra day with them. I also really enjoy an extra day of not packing lunches... :D  
 
Thank you teachers! I thank you for every extra minute you take out of your off time to do something for my kids.

Teachers put up with a lot of **** from parents. Threads like this are embarrassing that we as a society do not appreciate all the effort they put into their students. If a child is in need of something such as socks, guess who is most likely to send the child home in a pair of socks during the winter? They, emotionally, take home so much baggage between the parents and students. Perhaos they suspect neglect, abuse.. It’s hard to take that home day after day. This right here, is why teachers need time off.

What we say and do in our daily lives can help our children to develop positive attitudes toward school and learning and to build confidence in themselves.  
 
Studies show the attitudes toward Education a child sees around them plays a larger role in that child’s chance for a quality education than how much money the family makes or how much education the parents have.  
 
You don’t always need that piece of paper to be very successful, but please don’t be the one that steals the next generations chance to get it.

I think PD days the way they are are great. Continued learning is so important, as is a day off here and there for the kids. At these seminars teachers learn better ways to teach kids, to handle difficult situations, and it helps them keep up to date with the changes in education.  
Anyone who says teachers already have too much time off and that these PD Days should be during their breaks doesn't realize how hard teachers work. Many don't have set hours, they stay far later than the kids most days, and when they get home they spend much of their time planning and marking. That is why they need and deserve decent time off.  
We are so lucky to have a country that values education and educators. Living in an educated society benefits us all, and having up to date educators (and happy ones) is so important too.

all the complainers listen up,get near perfect grades in high school,go to university 5 years,big tuition bill there,and become a teacher,i bet you would not be complaining about getting 10 weeks off then ,would u.and no I am not a teacher ,thank Christ,i would be disgusted with most of this crap you know it alls are spewing.parents don't be so cheap put your kids in ymca,or sportsplex camps,my daughter loves them its woth the 37.00 trust me.

cdog said "all the complainers listen up,get near perfect grades in high school,go to university 5 years,big tuition bill there,and become a teacher,i bet you would not be complaining about getting 10 weeks off then ,would u.and no I am not a teacher ,thank Christ,i would be disgusted with most of this crap you know it alls are spewing.parents don't be so cheap put your kids in ymca,or sportsplex camps,my daughter loves them its woth the 37.00 trust me. "

Why is this about the teachers when nobody is bashing them? So having extra random PD days doesn't disrupt student's learning time? Funny when it is about money think of the students. When it is about the curriculum and how things are administered it is all about the teachers. This link I posted on the first page, nobody can seem to confirm if these are the courses offered for PD days. If they indeed are what are things like Scrapbooking going to do to improve our education system. Why should a parent put their child into a camp or daycare so a teacher can Scrapbook. Also with PD days would it be better administered before the school year per say?

Your questions would be best directed to:  
 
1) Brandon School Division  
2) Manitoba Teachers Society  
3) Department of Education.  
 
Dept. of Ed. sets the beginning date & the ending date of school for the year. It sets the Christmas break and the Spring Break. It sets the number of PD days and Administrative days (frequently & mostly used for parent/teacher interviews)  
 
Manitoba Teachers Society can answer the questions about when PD can/can't happen. Calculating wages is a moot point because there are very very few teaches who work a "regular" working day. Hours of prep, marking, report cards, parent contact (because most parents work & have to be contacted outside the parents' working hours), supervision (dances, sports, any school club that meets outside of school hours)... add up tremendously. It is nothing for a teacher to accrue 200+ hours OUTSIDE of school hours. July is often recuperation month.  
 
I can't speak to scrapbooking. That is a question for MTS, as well, I would think.

mystery431 said "Your questions would be best directed to:     1) Brandon School Division   2) Manitoba Teachers Society   3) Department of Education.     Dept. of Ed. sets the beginning date & the ending date of school for the year. It sets the Christmas break and the Spring Break. It sets the number of PD days and Administrative days (frequently & mostly used for parent/teacher interviews)     Manitoba Teachers Society can answer the questions about when PD can/can't happen. Calculating wages is a moot point because there are very very few teaches who work a "regular" working day. Hours of prep, marking, report cards, parent contact (because most parents work & have to be contacted outside the parents' working hours), supervision (dances, sports, any school club that meets outside of school hours)... add up tremendously. It is nothing for a teacher to accrue 200+ hours OUTSIDE of school hours. July is often recuperation month.     I can't speak to scrapbooking. That is a question for MTS, as well, I would think. "

Came here just to say this too. Honestly, if you have questions, take initiative and contact the BSD or MTS for answers. A public forum with a lot of baseless opinions is not a reliable place from which to get information. Fishin Guy, if you’re so curious about this scrapbooking thing, just call someone and get an answer instead of making yourself crazy trying to get an answer here.  
 
To be honest, speaking as an employee of the BSD, I don’t understand OP’s questions. PD days are days off for the students and are still work days for the teachers. Subs don’t cover PD days because there isn’t school, and teachers aren’t paid more to attend professional development seminars. How would shuffling them around to the summer change anything other than making them less effective by bunching them all together at one point in the year? Where would we save money, exactly?

What the OP had suggested is that the PD days be lumped together and tacked onto the beginning or end of the school year so that the kids can have more of a summer break instead of random days off during the year.  
 
I am curious how lumping the PD days together would not be beneficial? My step children live in Alberta and got a week off in November where the teachers had their meetings/learning sessions for the whole week. To me that sounds better than a day here and a day there. Do I think having them at the end of the year makes sense - no. But this sept for example the kids went to school 3 days then the weekend, then 3 days then 2 days off for PD days was silly IMO. Just start the teachers with the 2 PD days and then start the kids. Or tack on the PD days to a long weekend already to give some extra time, or extra days at Christmas or Spring Break.  
 
Like I said before I don’t care either way but there is room for improvement. After that disaster of 1/2 day’s last year though this year is way better!!!!

Teachers’ contracts are from September to the end of June. Teachers don’t get paid in the summer time. Teachers have July and August off unpaid. I’m sure if you asked your employer for July and August off unpaid they would give it to you since it would save the business money. So, you’re suggesting teachers take PD on their unpaid vacation time.

Farmers Feed the World said "There is a simple solution to the contract issue of not getting paid through the summer. All new contracts are 12 month contracts with pay spread out equally across the year. This isn't about teachers not working hard enough bla bla bla. It's about getting the most out of our education system without continuing to come back to the trough for more money. We cant keep doing the same things it's not working. "

"Farmers...", this has been said already but I guess it wasn't clear. Many teachers do have their pay spread equally over 12 months, but they are only paid for 10 months. Ie. their 10 months worth of salary is spread over 12 months. Their contract even says the pay they get in July and August is deemed to have been earned during their period of employment - Sept. to June. So however you want to look at it, they are not 'working' for the BSD during the summer, so asking them to do PD at that time is asking them to work for free.  
 
As an aside, I don't know how this is legal. Provincial labour act says that wages must be paid at least semi-monthly and no more than 10 days after the pay period in which they were earned. I guess the teachers collective agreement overrides this law.  
 
I don't know how many PD days the BSD wants teachers to do each year, but tacking them onto existing holidays, or the couple of days before students arrive in classrooms in Sept. might account for some, but probably not all the PD they need to fit in. At the end of the day, the time between Sept. 1 and June 30 has to i:nclude all the classroom time with students (amount is mandated), plus all the PD time. So shuffling things around within the Sept. 1 to June 30 period is the only possible way to do this. The BSD has decided it's best to sprinkle them throughout the year. If you disagree, talk to a trustee. Or 4 years from now, run to be one. The teachers don't set this schedule, the BSD does.

Farmers Feed the World said "There is a simple solution to the contract issue of not getting paid through the summer. All new contracts are 12 month contracts with pay spread out equally across the year. This isn't about teachers not working hard enough bla bla bla. It's about getting the most out of our education system without continuing to come back to the trough for more money. We cant keep doing the same things it's not working. "

4 years from now, you should try voting.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2018-11-01 07:58:46

Farmers Feed the World said "There is a simple solution to the contract issue of not getting paid through the summer. All new contracts are 12 month contracts with pay spread out equally across the year. This isn't about teachers not working hard enough bla bla bla. It's about getting the most out of our education system without continuing to come back to the trough for more money. We cant keep doing the same things it's not working. "

Taken from the Brandon Teachers Association Collective Agreement.  
 
ARTICLE 10 – PAYMENT OF SALARY  
10.01 Annual salaries determined in accordance with the provisions of this collective agreement shall be paid on the basis of one-twelfth (1/12th) of the annual salary payable for each month, September to August.It is understood and agreed upon by the parties to this agreement that the July and August salary payments shall be deemed to have been earned in the immediately preceding school year.  
 
10.02 Salaries shall be paid by direct deposit in the teacher’s personal account at the financial institution of his/her choice on the last teaching day of the month or last business day in the case of July and August, including the year of resignation as of June 30th. Adjustments in salary shall be made in accordance with the following clauses.  
 
www.bsd.ca/Division/Careers/Documents/BTA10.pdf

Pawprints said "    Sashaa said "That PD days were when the teachers go to seminars and classes to refresh and learn new ideas to teach their students, as well as to discuss the events that have happened during the school year so far as well as address any issues the teachers may have. I don't think they are a "day off" for teachers as some might think. As for teachers having 2 months off during summer months, 2 weeks at Christmas and so on.....those teachers DESERVE those days off just like the kids do! Those teachers work EXTREAMLY HARD teaching our children and even the kids with disabilities have to learn from someone, and those people work HARD to learn HOW to teach those children PROPERLY. So, if the teachers need a few extra days each year to brush up on their teachink skills then LET THEM. All our children will benefit from those extra days in the long run.....BUT I AM glad they quit with the half days and went back to full days. " You have a LOT of capital letters in your posts. Duly noted!!!     Why I do agree with some of your thoughts, I don't agree with the others.     Yes, teachers do look after kids and yes, they deserve time off, HOWEVER, Sashaa, what is your job? Do you deserve 2 months off and 2 weeks off during Christmas? Just asking.     I have been in the workforce for many years and have accumulated time off due to service years as I'm sure lots of other people have been. Two weeks vacation for one year service, etc.     Not disrespecting teachers in any way, shape, or form, but from what I understand, those teachers are entitled to unemployment, yes, no? Not sure. Please let me know.     What I don't agree with is the amount of PD days in a given school year. Does anyone out there remember a time when you had 15 plus days off for whatever reason? We didn't even have "snow days"!!! "

statement in your comment, Pawprints, is inaccurate. Looking at the 2018-2019 division calendar, there are 6 PD days throughout the school year, 4 holiday days (i.e. Thanksgiving Monday, Louis Riel day, etc.) and 2 parent-teacher interview days. That is not 15 days off "for no reason" and the PD days are not a day off for teachers - they are in sessions, learning how to be better teachers and implement new strategies into their classrooms.  
 
And I do not believe teachers are entitled to any unemployment unless they are on a term contract with no other work lined up.

Hey! said "If it was that critical other professions would get PD days. "

They do. From hair stylists to city workers to nurses to electricians to doctors and so many other professions, if they want a day off to attend a PD, they would simply book that day off to ensure they don't have appointments or meetings on that day. Unfortunately, teachers are unable to book days off as their clients come daily! unless the division pre-books those days or they get a substitute in.