Discussions

What I was saying is that Sally's whole irrational theism is based off of the idea that God is All Controlling, She states that if there was a God he would be All Knowing, All Powerful and All Good, but then basing her concepts on a quality that God does not claim to be - All Controlling. So her idea holds no water Because, evil or no evil, it has nothing to do with his OOO qualities.

The unknown said "What I was saying is that Sally's whole irrational theism is based off of the idea that God is All Controlling, She states that if there was a God he would be All Knowing, All Powerful and All Good, but then basing her concepts on a quality that God does not claim to be - All Controlling. So her idea holds no water Because, evil or no evil, it has nothing to do with his OOO qualities. "

Please define "all controlling" for us before you attribute this quality, or lack of quality to god.  
 
Are you saying that god, despite being omnicient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent, CANT control somethinging? or doesn't want to?

God can control whatever he likes. But he has created a system that operates on laws and absolutes, for example gravity, thermodynamics etc. To every action there is a reaction. With a choice comes a repercussion of that choice. God could control everything and prevent every evil that would be a result of people's poor choices but that would result in God having to change the whole world and we would be a bunch of robots following orders as well as not having to answer for what do. But He lets everyone choose, and with the choices we make we will receive the benefits or consequences of those choices. Sally is Saying that because God has the power, he "should" use that power to stop all evil, but he won't because he hasn't created that type of system.

You said..."Sally is Saying that because God has the power, he "should" use that power to stop all evil, but he won't because he hasn't created that type of system."  
 
If he won't act then he cannot be omnibenevolent, all good.  
 
So Sally was right.  
 
Or are you saying god is not all powerful, all knowing and all good?  
 
Marpet  
 
Edited by Marpet, 2015-06-28 19:05:44

The unknown said "God can control whatever he likes. But he has created a system that operates on laws and absolutes, for example gravity, thermodynamics etc. To every action there is a reaction. With a choice comes a repercussion of that choice. God could control everything and prevent every evil that would be a result of people's poor choices but that would result in God having to change the whole world and we would be a bunch of robots following orders as well as not having to answer for what do. But He lets everyone choose, and with the choices we make we will receive the benefits or consequences of those choices. Sally is Saying that because God has the power, he "should" use that power to stop all evil, but he won't because he hasn't created that type of system. "

more about these choices?  
 
What choice do the children who die every 10 seconds screaming in agony from starvation and dehydration largely due to drought induced famine, have for a choice? They are innocent according to your god and are incapable of making choices.  
 
If I had omnipotent power I would immediately fix that little problem.  
 
Gods plan  
Step 1.....Needlessly kill Billions of children  
Step 2.....???????????  
Step 3 Glory!!!!!!!!  
 
 
yeah thats a great plan.  
 
Really! Even if he did exist, god would be unworthy of anyones respect and praise. at best he'd be some kind of emotionally detached scientist, or he is outright sadistic and malevolent.  
neither are worthy of unconditional love, faith, or worship  
 

As I mentioned before about the laws of absolutes, you are assuming that nothing has happened in ancient history that has caused that land to be so desolate. There are too many unknowns to be able to point fingers at God or anyone. And you are assuming that this sadistic and malevolent God doesn't have something far better in store for these innocent children who suffer so terribly. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean there isn't more to be understood.

God is all of those things, but if God created us with a choice and then dictated that we couldn't make evil choices then what choice is there? And if I can choose to do evil, does it not stand to reason that an innocent person could be effected? What we have here is finite minds trying to understand a subject that we just don't know enough about and there will be many things that are mysterious, and because we don't understand everything, people will naturally point fingers at the whoever they can.

The unknown said "God is all of those things, but if God created us with a choice and then dictated that we couldn't make evil choices then what choice is there? And if I can choose to do evil, does it not stand to reason that an innocent person could be effected? What we have here is finite minds trying to understand a subject that we just don't know enough about and there will be many things that are mysterious, and because we don't understand everything, people will naturally point fingers at the whoever they can. "

[i]God is all of those things, but if God created us with a choice and then dictated that we couldn't make evil choices then what choice is there?[/i]  
 
That's not an argument, that's a logical fallacy called "begging the question". You have not established that its not a possible scenario that god could have never created evil. That does not preclude us from making choices in our lives, it just means we couldn't commit evil.  
 
[i]What we have here is finite minds trying to understand a subject that we just don't know enough about and there will be many things that are mysterious, and because we don't understand everything, people will naturally point fingers at the whoever they can.[/i]  
 
You've unwittingly just described every religious person on the planet. Except as has been pointed out several times, YOURE the one claiming absolutes. We're the ones telling you that your story doesn't add up.  
 

He cant be all of those things and allow evil to exist. You must drop one or you have an irrational god.  
 
Marpet

Torque - To discuss possible scenarios is futile. What you are looking for is answers that can't be answered outside of God, but you are not willing to believe anything that mentions God. Without Gods existence then evil is open to interpretation. What is evil? If God does not exist then we are just organisms living in the circle of life. When a black widow kills the male spider, is that evil? Or is it just part of life? To deny God and then get upset at God because of all the events in the world is a contradiction. One has to be eliminated. If God does not exist then what makes it evil? It's just part of the next evolutionary process and embrace it.  
 
If God does exist then we have to answer to him, I think that is the real issue here. "Who is the Lord, that I should obey him?"

The unknown said "Torque - To discuss possible scenarios is futile. What you are looking for is answers that can't be answered outside of God, but you are not willing to believe anything that mentions God. Without Gods existence then evil is open to interpretation. What is evil? If God does not exist then we are just organisms living in the circle of life. When a black widow kills the male spider, is that evil? Or is it just part of life? To deny God and then get upset at God because of all the events in the world is a contradiction. One has to be eliminated. If God does not exist then what makes it evil? It's just part of the next evolutionary process and embrace it.     If God does exist then we have to answer to him, I think that is the real issue here. "Who is the Lord, that I should obey him?" "

"When a black widow kills the male spider, is that evil? Or is it just part of life?"  
 
I am quite confident that torque will say it is part of life and not evil. I will also assert that torque - the Atheist, will NEVER blame god for any events that happen on the earth since he is - AN ATHEIST!  
 
God does not need to exist for there to be an evolutionary process and yet we still have a verifiable evolutionary process. Your right, one has to be eliminated. Should we eliminate verifiable processes or imaginary beings that are either powerless, unknowing or uncaring?  
 
I do not speak for torque, just my observation of his responses.  
 
Marpet

Then we are no different than the spider, we are just another existence of cells like any other. So there is no real crime when one kills, rapes, steals, or harms another being. It is survival of the fittest. In the end your beliefs are just as terrible and uncaring as you claim anyone else's to be. Your story just doesn't add up.

...was covered in earlier posts.  
 
As an Atheist, I don't look to my death to gain justice for any suffering I may have encountered. To claim that murder, rape, and injustice can only be dealt with by an uncaring, unknowing, or powerless god seems to be the story that doesn't add up.  
 
P.S. - Atheism is a lack of set beliefs.  
 
Marpet  
 

that God created it, caused it, allows it. But evil is actually a result of when humans do not have Gods love in their heart.

The unknown said "Then we are no different than the spider, we are just another existence of cells like any other. So there is no real crime when one kills, rapes, steals, or harms another being. It is survival of the fittest. In the end your beliefs are just as terrible and uncaring as you claim anyone else's to be. Your story just doesn't add up. "

That's my whole point that I have to repeat yet again. I'm not trying to go through all possible scenarios, only showing you that you're excluding one specifically because it messes with your world view.  
 
I ask you, is it not true that god could have never created evil, and simply let us live our lives making the mundane decisions we already do, only incapable of wanting to harm one another?  
 
God is everything and can do everything, yet he can't seem to create something without throwing various caveats in there to create a possibility of our everlasting doom.  
 
 
Why do you insist that we have some "special" holy attribute that only we as humans to the exclusion of any other life form in the UNIVERSE posess and insist it without any proof?  
 
Why do you insist there must be some ultimate justice without lending anything to back it up? In many denominations of christianity, in fact, the threat of hell or promise of heaven only depends on if i believe god exists because there's a special loophole, so long as i repent and get saved before I die, i can rape and murder all my life!  
How's that for "justice"?. How is this better than believing that when you die, that's it?  
 
You sound like the type of person who's never heard an argument against his position, ever. Not even in this very thread.  
 
Our story doesn't "add up"?  
 
Your beliefs are LITERALLY based on a nonsensical collection of stories. Incredible..  
 
I don't care what you claim, or assert, or that you're incredulous about certain aspects of reality. I only care what you can prove, and despite coming around these same apologist arguments about the 4th time now? I think? We've seen nothing.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Torque, 2015-06-29 06:45:43

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Priests who molested children had God in their hearts. Hitler was also a Christian. Most members of the KKK were and are Christians. Many of those who have beaten and killed gay people in the states claim to be Christians. Hell, many, many people over the years have committed evil acts in the name of God. Sorry, but that argument just doesn't fly.

The unknown said "As I mentioned before about the laws of absolutes, you are assuming that nothing has happened in ancient history that has caused that land to be so desolate. There are too many unknowns to be able to point fingers at God or anyone. And you are assuming that this sadistic and malevolent God doesn't have something far better in store for these innocent children who suffer so terribly. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean there isn't more to be understood. "

1. What? Something in ancient history?  
Something an all powerful god is unable to correct?Or something an all loving god is unwilling to correct? something that would reduce the suffering of innocents? But God chooses not to....because somehow it"helps us know him" that makes zero sense.  
 
2. I can point the finger at your imaginary god any time I want. by doing so I'm not mad at him...I'm showing you how implausible he is.  
 
3. Something far better??? So these children suffer unceasing agony for weeks, and months, watching their siblings perish, while their mothers weep, all because someone they never knew or met, or even had anything to do with "in ancient history" wronged God.....,but you get candy in heaven?  
 
That's just SICK! making an innocent suffer for some one else's crimes! Then dangling a magical prize in their faces...  
 
The entire concept of God and Christ is sick. We are all born filthy little sinners doomed to suffer because of something some mythical WOMAN supposedly did millennia ago (Always a woman causing evil in the bible, funny that).  
 
If god is your model for love or justice...I pity your children. "Kids Because your grandfather was a bad man I'm going to punish all of you with eternal strife and torment..... wow that's love.

Science.

Whether God is real or not, it is evident that Gods attributes are certainly something I don't have, and I certainly do not understand how they all work. What Sally was doing is taking a minimal understanding of what she thinks these attributes are and trying to say what God can or cannot do and condemning that if he had these attributes then he couldn't have other certain attributes, hence God is not real.  
 
Yes God could have created us with no evil only to live life without hurting each other. But this is going into the "what if" category, and I know we aren't there because evidently we can hurt and harm each other. And if God created us that way we would find something else that we don't understand to argue about, lol(having a little humor)  
 
Creating something with an everlasting doom and special "holy" qualities(wouldn't call them holy but...). Our level of Intelligence is an interesting thing. We are the only beings on earth that can choose and do whatever we want everyday. Every other creature does the same thing everyday. The facts are is that we are evidently different then every other creature we know about. There is no reason for us being that way in evolution but the Bible tells us "Man became a living soul". We are the only creatures that will do whatever we want, no matter the ramifications.  
 
As long as you repent and get saved you can do what you want. That is the farthest thing from the truth. The problem with these discussions is that anything and everything that calls themselves a "Christian" comes and says whatever they want. I want to be clear that a "Christian" would be someone who does things Christs way. If you look at 99% of Christian religions in these days they don't live or teach how the Bible says. It's for another discussion but the Bible talks about these false prophets. The trouble is its all under the same name so diciferring the difference has become very difficult.  
(Hence the reason I may sound unknowledgable about what has been said in this thread because it makes me upset when "Christians" come on here and make it worse by spouting false things about God and his way. If people are going to speak about God then they should be well versed in his Scriptures as that's where we base our beliefs.  
 
On the science side, you find different scientists that show "proof" for both views - Creation and evolution. Both cannot be right. This thread isn't looking to see if He's real, it's to take what we understand in this moment of time and try to figure out the worlds problems. And the common thought is because there is problems there can't be God.  
 
Skidooboy - What's sick is how you twist everything that is said. I was just making the point that there is SO MUCH that we don't understand. And you don't like that you can't understand it and aren't here to reason but to bash and criticize what you don't understand.  

First, just to get it out of the way, no scientist has ever provided proof of creationism. If you believe differently, please provide links that back up your claim.  
 
As for your disappointment that other Christians are spewing misinformation on here, well for me, that's the root of the problem. ALL Christians believe that their interpretation of the bible is the right one. I'm sure there are other Christians who are reading your posts and thinking "what an idiot, he's got it all wrong". How can so many people interpret one book so differently? The fact is, with so many different denominations, you can't all be right, which means most of you are wrong. What if you're wrong? How do you know you're interpreting it right? If there is a God, wouldn't he see all of the confusion over his words and want to fix it? Why would he make things so confusing that even those that believe in him can't agree with each other on meaning?  
 
Honestly though, I love it when Christians start insulting each other and telling each other they are wrong. It just goes to show how completely ridiculous this whole Christianity thing is.

The unknown said "Whether God is real or not, it is evident that Gods attributes are certainly something I don't have, and I certainly do not understand how they all work. What Sally was doing is taking a minimal understanding of what she thinks these attributes are and trying to say what God can or cannot do and condemning that if he had these attributes then he couldn't have other certain attributes, hence God is not real.     Yes God could have created us with no evil only to live life without hurting each other. But this is going into the "what if" category, and I know we aren't there because evidently we can hurt and harm each other. And if God created us that way we would find something else that we don't understand to argue about, lol(having a little humor)     Creating something with an everlasting doom and special "holy" qualities(wouldn't call them holy but...). Our level of Intelligence is an interesting thing. We are the only beings on earth that can choose and do whatever we want everyday. Every other creature does the same thing everyday. The facts are is that we are evidently different then every other creature we know about. There is no reason for us being that way in evolution but the Bible tells us "Man became a living soul". We are the only creatures that will do whatever we want, no matter the ramifications.     As long as you repent and get saved you can do what you want. That is the farthest thing from the truth. The problem with these discussions is that anything and everything that calls themselves a "Christian" comes and says whatever they want. I want to be clear that a "Christian" would be someone who does things Christs way. If you look at 99% of Christian religions in these days they don't live or teach how the Bible says. It's for another discussion but the Bible talks about these false prophets. The trouble is its all under the same name so diciferring the difference has become very difficult.   (Hence the reason I may sound unknowledgable about what has been said in this thread because it makes me upset when "Christians" come on here and make it worse by spouting false things about God and his way. If people are going to speak about God then they should be well versed in his Scriptures as that's where we base our beliefs.     On the science side, you find different scientists that show "proof" for both views - Creation and evolution. Both cannot be right. This thread isn't looking to see if He's real, it's to take what we understand in this moment of time and try to figure out the worlds problems. And the common thought is because there is problems there can't be God.     Skidooboy - What's sick is how you twist everything that is said. I was just making the point that there is SO MUCH that we don't understand. And you don't like that you can't understand it and aren't here to reason but to bash and criticize what you don't understand.   "

Actually I'm well versed in the bible Christianity and faith. I dove in whole heartedly in my youth. I understand them all quite well.  
well enough that I now loath every bit of it.  
 
The bible....what it compels in one passage is condemned in another and forgiven in a third.  
 
Christianity...Vicarious redemption through the torture and death of a mythical person(Jesus) for a sin I never committed,attributed to an other mythical person (eve&the apple)?  
What? that makes no sense.  
 
Faith. believing whatever you want regardless of the evidence, because the people at the church your parents took you to said so?....when every single piece of every single field of science and historical inquiry unerringly shows us there isn't one shred of truth in the sacred texts...  
 
 
 
If you face the facts. the world just doesn't work like there is some all powerful all loving all knowing sky daddy. it works like a place operating from the laws of physics and randomness.  
 
Children starve because it doesn't rain. or because they don't have clean drinking water, or a million other natural random causes. They don't die so the rest of us can learn a lesson. they don't get fast tracked to paradise..they just get sick and die. that is what a reasonable person would conclude.  
 

I've always had a deep intuition that God exists, I can't remember ever not believing that. I've just always known. I have no evidence. I think my family went to church for about a year when I was little so it wasn't my upbringing that's made me feel as I do. I don't belong to a church or anything.  
 
I don't think there's any actual atheists because I believe that deep down everyone knows God exists even when their mind tells them otherwise. Maybe I think this because it seems to me that atheists are the ones who seem to talk about God the most. Who seem to have these thoughts in their head as to how God should behave, if he exists. And when God doesn't live up to pre-conceived expectations they deny Him. There's a fascination with God that atheists have and I think that's very telling. We as humans are not capable of understanding why God "allows" bad things to happen and to use examples of human atrocities has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Same with diseases, natural disasters, etc. Maybe this is a reason why some atheists don't think there's a God... because He's not a fairy tale God.  
 
I don't deny evolution or science. I think it all comes from God anyways since He's the creator. Science is our way of trying to understand the universe we live in and most of science is theories, not actually proven. So how can we rely on science saying there's no proof of God?  
 
But the debate will always be there, with the same arguments over and over again.  
 
 
 
 

Rue said "or whatever you beloeve in I have a real hard time believing in anything when all kinds of crazy things go on war ,murder ,rape molesting I could go on on if there is a so called higher power to make things great where is it ? On vaction "

I can't find evidence God doesn't exist. Where can I find evidence that proves God doesn't exist?

good question  
if there is a so called GOD why would it let that little boy drown what did that little boy do wrong ?

take the test by going to  
goodpersontest.com  
 

Hman said "    Rue said "or whatever you beloeve in I have a real hard time believing in anything when all kinds of crazy things go on war ,murder ,rape molesting I could go on on if there is a so called higher power to make things great where is it ? On vaction " I can't find evidence God doesn't exist. Where can I find evidence that proves God doesn't exist? "

You cant prove a negative.  
For instance I have an invisible unicorn in my garage prove I dont