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Edited by Kent1963, 2015-06-11 16:38:31

Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15"

We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.  
 
This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.  
 
The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.  
 
And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.  
 
See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?  
 
Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.  
 
What did it feel like before you were born?  
 
I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.  
 
Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18

Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15"

If natural disasters are created by nature, not god, then who/what created nature? Don't you attribute nature to god?

JR said "    Johnbisonbear said "and there is a Heaven. Because of my personal experiences I believe!     As for all the horrible stuff that happens everyday? Life is a lesson... " Please explain to me what possible lesson a baby born with severe physical handicaps could possibly learn. What lesson did my grandmother learn just before she died of inoperable cancer? Any "god" responsible for this type of suffering is truly evil and cruel. I prefer to think that there is no god, because I refuse to believe that a being that has that type of hold on the human race could be so cruel. Disease is evidence that there is NOT a perfect designer of the universe. Nothing is perfect and never will be - least of all, human belief.   "

teach their family lessons, in love and in life. We have a severely disabled child in the extended family and the parents are doing a bang up job of caring for her.  
 
People die everyday, it is their fate, no way to stop that is there? One way or another everyone suffers in some way before death. When people linger on their way out family and friends gather to offer their comfort and love. This is the "milk of human kindness", imo.  
 
Everyone has their own belief, I prefer to believe.

Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "and there is a Heaven. Because of my personal experiences I believe!     As for all the horrible stuff that happens everyday? Life is a lesson... " I rest my case.     What exactly is the lesson to be learned from children starving to death before they're even 2 years old?     What a horrible and immoral way to look at life.         Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 14:17:49"

and you blame God? How about man's inhumanity to man?

Torque said "    Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15" We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.     This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.     The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.     And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.     See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?     Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.     What did it feel like before you were born?     I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.     Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18"

I see so many people talk about faith yet have no idea what it is. Blind faith is not Biblical. Blind faith can be described as going up a 100 ft tower and jumping off without equipment, trusting that you won't go splat, and just float down.  
Actual faith is a trust you put in something or someone, and is always based on something. If I have faith that my son will take out the garbage, I trust that he will. Based on what? Based on past experiences. Based on how he reacted to his responsibilities in the past. If he had neglected his responsibilities in the past I couldn't have faith in him to do the task unless I choose to trust foolishly.  
heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  
Heb 11:1 CJV Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.  
Heb11:1 OJB Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.  
since Emunah is the hebrew word translated into faith, checking that definition would get us closer to the intended meaning.  
What do I base my Faith on? The Fact that God keeps his promises, that he keeps his word. look at prophecy both good and bad. Have not a lot come to pass, even in the last 100 years. are not some still future, that me can keep an eye on? The evidence of biblical events in archeology. Can we not still go out to Sodom and collect brimstone (that are over 99% pure surfer and burn hot enough as to melt glass if you happen to light a piece. Has not the red sea crossing site been discovered with Egyptian chariot remains encrusted in corral found on the bottom of the reed sea. <:a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NuAkXUwu0/">:The Red Sea Crossing<:/a>:  
So no I don't have blind faith, It is based on something. But I agree, many people trust blindly and really can't defend their position.

My view on God is that when he created us, he had the option of making a species with no free will, in which nothing bad would happen, as God would be the puppeteer.  
 
Instead he chose to give us free will. Most negative things can be distilled down to free will.  
 
If God were to intervene, it would remove free will and make him a puppet master.

Brodie said "My view on God is that when he created us, he had the option of making a species with no free will, in which nothing bad would happen, as God would be the puppeteer.     Instead he chose to give us free will. Most negative things can be distilled down to free will.     If God were to intervene, it would remove free will and make him a puppet master. "

so he created us to fail? ,time and time again you hear christians when they have run out of answers as to why they really believe 99 out of a hundred say well I have faith or you need faith to believe, a belief that is not based on truth, one description.sounds like he needs a mindless puppet to me  
So in order to beileive in god you must throw common scene out the window.  
So sad they have chosen the mafia boss approach to get followers nice little life you have here wouldn't want to see anything bad happen now or in your after life just believe in Jesus my invisible boss, give only %10 of your income and it will be ok

rum said "    Torque said "    Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15" We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.     This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.     The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.     And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.     See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?     Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.     What did it feel like before you were born?     I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.     Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18" I see so many people talk about faith yet have no idea what it is. Blind faith is not Biblical. Blind faith can be described as going up a 100 ft tower and jumping off without equipment, trusting that you won't go splat, and just float down.   Actual faith is a trust you put in something or someone, and is always based on something. If I have faith that my son will take out the garbage, I trust that he will. Based on what? Based on past experiences. Based on how he reacted to his responsibilities in the past. If he had neglected his responsibilities in the past I couldn't have faith in him to do the task unless I choose to trust foolishly.   heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   Heb 11:1 CJV Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.   Heb11:1 OJB Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.   since Emunah is the hebrew word translated into faith, checking that definition would get us closer to the intended meaning.   What do I base my Faith on? The Fact that God keeps his promises, that he keeps his word. look at prophecy both good and bad. Have not a lot come to pass, even in the last 100 years. are not some still future, that me can keep an eye on? The evidence of biblical events in archeology. Can we not still go out to Sodom and collect brimstone (that are over 99% pure surfer and burn hot enough as to melt glass if you happen to light a piece. Has not the red sea crossing site been discovered with Egyptian chariot remains encrusted in corral found on the bottom of the reed sea. <:a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NuAkXUwu0/">:The Red Sea Crossing<:/a>:   So no I don't have blind faith, It is based on something. But I agree, many people trust blindly and really can't defend their position. "

The internet where religion has come to die archeologist say there is very little evidence Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed let alone going out and picking up brimstone's Ron Wyatt who has made the videos on finding just about everything biblical, Noah's ark the red sea crossing and Sodom and Gomorrah is not an archeologist and there is no record of him doing any of these digs because you need to be an archeologist to get the permit to do so, he claims he had verbal permission, even answer in Genesis the premier creationist web site distance them selves from Ron Wyatt hes a known charlitain and grifter who has been debunked on everything he ever did a simple Google search blows your proof out of the water admit it you have faith and nothing else

In response to some of your issues with Christianity Marpet, here again is my response.  
 
You said "I do not need a god, that I am required to be afraid of, in order to do just and morals actions"  
 
That may be the case for you Marpet, and I would not argue otherwise, except that if there is no afterlife than there is no justice when life becomes unfair. Similarly there is no consequence to the harm one does on this earth save and except for what society can do in retaliation. I imagine a number of people on ebrandon could think of situations where people have done harmful things to them and were never punished for it. If there is no afterlife there is no justice.  
 
You have said that you are an atheist Marpet, and that your life is not 'utterly unfair' - that is all fine and good for you, and I am happy to hear that your life is going well, and I hope it continues like that for your entire life, but what of those who are suffering? What of those whose life is utterly unfair. What comfort does your atheism give them?  
 
I'm not saying that the comfort that comes from an afterlife is a reason for God's existence, but rather it is a symptom of it. I am however saying that in atheism there is no comfort for the trajedies of life, for the unfairness of it. Many in these posts have said I don't want to believe in a God that allows suffering, and you yourself have said that 'He sounds mean'. Well how does that compare to a belief in atheism where there is no afterlife and no justice, no comfort for those who suffer - that sounds far worse to me.  
 
I think it's too bad that part of your reason for not believing in God is that you don't want to believe in one that allows suffering. However, in your atheism there is nothing but the suffering - and no reason for it, no redemption to be gained for it. You are almost contradicting yourself in a way, in that you're upset over the idea of a God allowing suffering, and so instead you prefer the idea of no god where there is nothing but the suffering.  
 
You have also said that 'scientifically there is no proof of a soul'  
 
Any good lawyer or debater would suggest to you that it's often not wise to suggest that there is 'no evidence' when you cannot possibly come to that conclusion with certainty.  
 
I would disagree greatly with you Marpet. For the scientific evidence for a soul is greater than you think. There are numerous examples of people who have suffered near death experiences who have a state of consciousness outside of their bodies where science cannot explain or properly understand why they are able to view and experience things that their body is otherwise incapable of. There are numerous examples of people who have went outside their bodies, and outside of the room their bodies were left in to die, or outside of the room they were being operated on, and then could verify what they saw in those other places - which can then be corroborated based on evidence. There are a lot of examples of people who were born blind who could see for the first time ever in a near death experience. There are also people who never knew of Christ, were never religious before, but have said that they met Jesus when they went through near death experiences. There is one example in particular that I can think of where an individual floated outside of his body, and recalled seeing and describing an object outside of the building, whereby it was concluded that the description of the object ( a sneaker) could have only been seen by someone in close proximity to the shoe, on the outside of the 3rd floor of the building.  
 
If in fact people are capable of experiencing a sixth sense when they go through a near death experience (for example being able to see through walls or travel distances without their body) then why can't science duplicate that when they're alive?  
 
Marpet, you've also said that matter doesn't require a reason, well here you have quite the philosophical and rational conundrum - I venture to guess that everything in this universe seems to have a reason, is that not the basis behind the scientific method?Which by the way was developed by the Catholic Church. If everything else has a reason, why does matter have none? Really, do you really believe that matter doesn't have to have a reason to exist? That it just is? Does that make any sense to you at all? That everything exists and started with matter, which just existed for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I venture to guess that for most of us who are scientific your suggestion does not make sense.  
 
You speak of Christianity being a religion that only represents a minority of the world's population, and you're right, but perhaps it has little to do with a majority of the world's population rejecting Christianity, but rather perhaps it has much more to do with the majority of the world not being well informed about what Chrisianity represents, as you yourself seem to be. A number of individuals have posted on this topic that Christians should not be trying to push their religion on others, and I would agree that evangelization should never be forced or coerced. But if there's no conversations or lively debate about what we believe it will be difficult for others to ever be able to fully decide on whether what we have is true?  
 
So it can't fully be said that 69 percent of the world disagrees with us. Much of the world nations have now or in the past had restrictions on the spread of Christianity in their countries. Much of the Muslim world does not allow conversions, and throughout much of China and Japan's history where Christians are a small minority, Christians were not allowed to practice their religion.  
 
Marpet, you then ask 'why are we required to suffer' and further to this you state 'your God sounds mean', specifically because he allows us to suffer.  
Isn't the reason evident? It comes down to love. God allows suffering so that we can love each other. We cannot give to another if that other does not need to receive anything. We find the greatest source of love in Christ and the martyrs. For in Christianity, God so loved the world that he would come among us, not because He had to, but in order to show us His love for us. For God demonstrated that pride and our own selfish desires are nothing by coming to earth, allowing human beings to torture, ridicule and crucify Him so as to show us that He loves us so much that He would suffer equally with us so that we might understand that we find the greatest meaning from our suffering - from our love for others.  
 
God does not lead through fear and agression, that is not His intention, His greatest intention and His greatest example of leadership is through His love.  
 
Marpet, you seem to be fixated on the thought that you can be moral without believing in a God, or a soul, and as I've said now many times, I agree with you, you can be, but without that belief there is only so much consequence to the actions of those who harm others. Without God, there is no pure justice in this world. Without God there is far less meaning to our lives. With God there is so much more love for our world.

make it sound like EVERYONE MUST believe in god. Who made that rule!!! Who says someone must believe your god? So what if someone doesn't believe in some mythical being!!!  
 
Believing in a god is a PERSONAL decision. If I want makeup a god to believe in, who's going to stop me.  
 
The thing I absolutely hate about religion is how it thinks it rules everyone and everyone must abide by it.  
 
All religions are mythical. And that's my opinion.

Midway55 said "    rum said "    Torque said "    Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15" We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.     This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.     The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.     And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.     See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?     Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.     What did it feel like before you were born?     I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.     Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18" I see so many people talk about faith yet have no idea what it is. Blind faith is not Biblical. Blind faith can be described as going up a 100 ft tower and jumping off without equipment, trusting that you won't go splat, and just float down.   Actual faith is a trust you put in something or someone, and is always based on something. If I have faith that my son will take out the garbage, I trust that he will. Based on what? Based on past experiences. Based on how he reacted to his responsibilities in the past. If he had neglected his responsibilities in the past I couldn't have faith in him to do the task unless I choose to trust foolishly.   heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   Heb 11:1 CJV Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.   Heb11:1 OJB Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.   since Emunah is the hebrew word translated into faith, checking that definition would get us closer to the intended meaning.   What do I base my Faith on? The Fact that God keeps his promises, that he keeps his word. look at prophecy both good and bad. Have not a lot come to pass, even in the last 100 years. are not some still future, that me can keep an eye on? The evidence of biblical events in archeology. Can we not still go out to Sodom and collect brimstone (that are over 99% pure surfer and burn hot enough as to melt glass if you happen to light a piece. Has not the red sea crossing site been discovered with Egyptian chariot remains encrusted in corral found on the bottom of the reed sea. <:a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NuAkXUwu0/">:The Red Sea Crossing<:/a>:   So no I don't have blind faith, It is based on something. But I agree, many people trust blindly and really can't defend their position. " The internet where religion has come to die archeologist say there is very little evidence Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed let alone going out and picking up brimstone's Ron Wyatt who has made the videos on finding just about everything biblical, Noah's ark the red sea crossing and Sodom and Gomorrah is not an archeologist and there is no record of him doing any of these digs because you need to be an archeologist to get the permit to do so, he claims he had verbal permission, even answer in Genesis the premier creationist web site distance them selves from Ron Wyatt hes a known charlitain and grifter who has been debunked on everything he ever did a simple Google search blows your proof out of the water admit it you have faith and nothing else "

Is Google your God?  
Have you watched any of the videos I linked?  
Have you gone out and visited those sites as proof against me?  
Yes the red sea crossing site has been found!  
Yes Sodom has been found!  
have you been on any of the tours in taking you out into the desert to show you the ruins?  
Yes mount Sinai in Arabia has been found!  
Yes those things serve as confirmation of my faith.  
Is it the only confirmation I have? of course not. There are the promises and the prophecies. Like I said before , that only scratches the surface.  
Did you watch any of the videos I linked? based on your statement I know you didn't.  
But I believe you found something you have faith in. GOOGLE. You show quite a bit of trust for it.  
Do you not realize at one time the majority believed the Earth was Flat?  
Do you not realize that at one time the majority believed the Sun revolved around the earth?  
You will NOT find truth by Google what the Majority say. If you look at History the Majority was wrong quite often. You have to go check for yourself.  
 
I sincerely Hope you have some better proof against me than Google. It's kinda like me coming back from Niagara Falls and you telling me your group of friends claim waterfalls don't exist.  

rum said "    Midway55 said "    rum said "    Torque said "    Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15" We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.     This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.     The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.     And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.     See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?     Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.     What did it feel like before you were born?     I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.     Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18" I see so many people talk about faith yet have no idea what it is. Blind faith is not Biblical. Blind faith can be described as going up a 100 ft tower and jumping off without equipment, trusting that you won't go splat, and just float down.   Actual faith is a trust you put in something or someone, and is always based on something. If I have faith that my son will take out the garbage, I trust that he will. Based on what? Based on past experiences. Based on how he reacted to his responsibilities in the past. If he had neglected his responsibilities in the past I couldn't have faith in him to do the task unless I choose to trust foolishly.   heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   Heb 11:1 CJV Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.   Heb11:1 OJB Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.   since Emunah is the hebrew word translated into faith, checking that definition would get us closer to the intended meaning.   What do I base my Faith on? The Fact that God keeps his promises, that he keeps his word. look at prophecy both good and bad. Have not a lot come to pass, even in the last 100 years. are not some still future, that me can keep an eye on? The evidence of biblical events in archeology. Can we not still go out to Sodom and collect brimstone (that are over 99% pure surfer and burn hot enough as to melt glass if you happen to light a piece. Has not the red sea crossing site been discovered with Egyptian chariot remains encrusted in corral found on the bottom of the reed sea. <:a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NuAkXUwu0/">:The Red Sea Crossing<:/a>:   So no I don't have blind faith, It is based on something. But I agree, many people trust blindly and really can't defend their position. " The internet where religion has come to die archeologist say there is very little evidence Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed let alone going out and picking up brimstone's Ron Wyatt who has made the videos on finding just about everything biblical, Noah's ark the red sea crossing and Sodom and Gomorrah is not an archeologist and there is no record of him doing any of these digs because you need to be an archeologist to get the permit to do so, he claims he had verbal permission, even answer in Genesis the premier creationist web site distance them selves from Ron Wyatt hes a known charlitain and grifter who has been debunked on everything he ever did a simple Google search blows your proof out of the water admit it you have faith and nothing else " Is Google your God?   Have you watched any of the videos I linked?   Have you gone out and visited those sites as proof against me?   Yes the red sea crossing site has been found!   Yes Sodom has been found!   have you been on any of the tours in taking you out into the desert to show you the ruins?   Yes mount Sinai in Arabia has been found!   Yes those things serve as confirmation of my faith.   Is it the only confirmation I have? of course not. There are the promises and the prophecies. Like I said before , that only scratches the surface.   Did you watch any of the videos I linked? based on your statement I know you didn't.   But I believe you found something you have faith in. GOOGLE. You show quite a bit of trust for it.   Do you not realize at one time the majority believed the Earth was Flat?   Do you not realize that at one time the majority believed the Sun revolved around the earth?   You will NOT find truth by Google what the Majority say. If you look at History the Majority was wrong quite often. You have to go check for yourself.     I sincerely Hope you have some better proof against me than Google. It's kinda like me coming back from Niagara Falls and you telling me your group of friends claim waterfalls don't exist.   "

These sites where not found I have seen Ron Wyatt s videos guess where on google and you tube he has been dismissed by scientists archeologists biblical scholars even the leaders of his own church called him a fraud.  
This crap is old debunked years ago  

Johnbisonbear said "    Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "and there is a Heaven. Because of my personal experiences I believe!     As for all the horrible stuff that happens everyday? Life is a lesson... " I rest my case.     What exactly is the lesson to be learned from children starving to death before they're even 2 years old?     What a horrible and immoral way to look at life.         Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 14:17:49" and you blame God? How about man's inhumanity to man? "

Once again, I don’t blame god because I don’t believe he exists. Do you understand?  
 
Christians contend that God is all good and all powerful, yet there are places in the world where the only thing people accomplish in their short life is suffer and die of malnutrition and disease, we can’t help them all, we don’t have the chance or even know about it in many of cases. The point I was trying to make is, what is the point of creating something where the only thing it does is suffer and die when you have the ultimate power to stop it? Remember, god is omniscient, he knows that child will suffer before it even happens and that no one will help it. He CAN change things, but he doesn’t.  
 
And you want to turn this around and say that it’s man’s fault that this happens? It isn’t anyone’s fault, it just is. But if we grant you that god exists, and he watches this happen, then how in the hell can Christians claim that he’s both all good AND all powerful. No, sorry. Doesn’t follow.  
 
Either he’s all powerful but doesn’t care to help, making him evil or he’s all good but can’t help, making him impotent. Can't have it both ways.  
 
Take the story of creation of Adam and Eve for example. Christians love this one because they claim it explains how sin and disease came about and how it’s all attributable to these two (but mostly the woman) of god’s original humans. So god creates these perfect beings whom he apparently loves to no end, he creates them perfect, gives them a perfect place to live in paradise, everything’s great. That's it, Right?  
 
Wrong.  
 
No, god’s not happy with that, he has to create a caveat, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right and wrong, and tells his perfect beings not to eat of the fruit, not only that, but he allows satan (whom apparently can do whatever the hell he wants with impunity) to tempt Adam and Eve. Why? Why do that?  
Would you tell your own kids “hey, I love you, but ill only love you if you don’t eat this cake in the fridge” and then allow a magical pixie, whom you also created to follow them around and try to trick them into eating the cake. And when they inevitably fail you strike them with disease and death, and their children, and their children’s children FOREVER. That’s not the actions of a loving parent, that’s the actions of a psychopath.  
 
BUT TORQUE, THEY HAD FREE WILL!!!11  
 
So what?  
 
If I create a maze for rats with two exits, one to freedom and the other to a mouse trap and death, am I blameless when the rat chooses wrong and gets killed? Sure the rat had free will to choose the right path, but I created the SITUATION. I cannot be completely blameless ESPECIALLY if i'm going to bait the game against the rats. (Satan)  
 
It amazes me how good people, who are kind in their daily life like most ebrandon-ers are I’m sure, will contort their own human decency to try to defend and apologize for some of the most absurd BS in scripture. They’ll say things like “oh well you have to be faithful before you can understand the bible” or “god was just teaching us a lesson” or “you have to read it in context”, as if there was some context under which owning someone else as property or murdering babies is ok. We’re talking about things written by people who knew less about the world around them than an average 8 year old today.  
 
We live in a harsh world, we face serious problems. Proverbially throwing up your hands and saying Jesus take the wheel is ludicrous, yet that’s the theme that pervades almost all the Christian arguments in almost every one of these discussions on god when they come up. “Well there is a god, and he loves me but not you and he’ll take care of everything, and when I die I get to keep living”. Come on people. We need to collectively grow up as a species.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 21:21:34

Science video? Who said it was a science Video? Did you even watch it?  
It is not the mere existence that prove something, however neither does it disprove.  
It is not the existence but what has been found at those places that proof those events as recorded by scripture.  
You also missed the context about the Niagara falls parable. The context was not about God but about the existence of Sodom, mount sinia and the red sea crossing site.  
So you going to superman was taking my parable out of context, for it was not intended to prove God.  

I would almost want to believe Ron Wyatt's claims BECAUSE he was debunked, lol. Of course his discoveries would be dismissed because that would mean everyone else has been wrong all along. Or he uncovered what was supposed to be kept covered - by the Vatican, governments, TPTB and so on.  
 
I agree his claims of discovering Noah's Ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the site of the crucifixtion, Mt Sinai, etc sound outlandish, especially considering he was an amateur. But if God wanted Ron to find these, there would be no force on Earth to stop him from finding them.  
 
The locations of his findings is fascinating as they are exactly where they are described in the Bible, not the misinterpreted sites people generally believe. Examples - Mt Sinai is actually in Saudi Arabia (burned top and all) and not on the Sinai peninsula as they would have us think. The Red Sea crossing site is also where it is described in the Bible (not where is generally believed) and is evidenced by what was found at the bottom of the Aqaba finger of the Red Sea - horse and human bones, chariot wheels from the Pharaoh's army. Ron's location of Noah's Ark is actually visible on Google Earth (the outline of it) - coordinates 39.441844, 44.235278 and the size of it is as God directed - 300 by 50 cubits.  
 
The thing that really gets me about Ron Wyatt is when he talks about the Ark of the Covenant. He claims he found it by following an earthquake crack 20 feet below where he believed to be the site of Jesus' crucifixion. He talks about seeing the angels, describes the Ark of the Covenant as how the Bible describes it (not the Indiana Jones version of it) and says the Ark of the Covenant, as God's Throne on Earth, is anointed with Jesus' blood. He claims to have had a chromosome count done on the blood - the lab guys said they couldn't do that because it was old, dead blood but Ron insisted. So they did and found the blood was alive and had 24 chromosomes. Humans have 46 - 23 from mom and 23 from dad. Jesus' blood has 23 from Mary and a Y chromosome from God, so 24. Believe him or not but whenever Ron gets to the part where he talks about the blood, he starts crying. Really crying, he is so overcome. I've seen a couple different videos where he's talked about it, his reaction is very visceral and doesn't seem put on at all.  
 
So while I haven't made up my mind entirely about Ron, I do believe that he believed what he found. I certainly will not dismiss his findings because it was dismissed by "officials". History is full of lies and the truth tends to get buried by them, intentionally.  
 

Midway55 said "    rum said "    Midway55 said "    rum said "    Torque said "    Jaxon said "Since it is my understanding that those who are unbelievers of God would never thank Him for anything good , I must then assume that those thanking Him are Christians/believers. And those disasters that happen are delivered from nature, thus the term natural disasters (not God) Who knows if some of these are a result of things that we humans have done to alter the world as a result of pesticides, refrigeration, medications, electrical stations, etc.... Additionally I do recall that the "increase" of these natural disasters are explained in the book of Revelation to those that are believers. As I said in my previous post, we are not robots, we are allowed to choose out actions. And we are allowed to choose to believe or not to believe. And the gamble, I guess, is ours to make. Eternal life or.....nothingness after this life is over.     Edited by Jaxon, 2015-06-11 14:49:15" We wouldn't attribute anything to him, good or otherwise, that was my point.     This is because I choose to think rationally about god, just as I do about everything else in life. The funny thing is that you do too, except when it comes to god.     The book of revelation has been pointed to numerous times before as being profecy fullfilled. And if humanity does end up destroying the earth through the devices you mentioned I'm sure christians will be the first to jump up and down yelling "see we told you this was end times" because that's how their minds work. It's just a big confirmation bias fallacy.     And weather or not there is an afterlife is not predicated on if you believe it or not. There either is, or there isn't.     See, the difference between you and I is that I don't accept that belief is a choice. It's all based on evidence even IF we can't know anything 100%. I can't make myself believe that fairies are real so gambling, as you put it, that fairies might send me to hell for not believing in them is a pointless excercise, understand?     Also, why does it scare the religious so much that there might be nothingness after you die? You won't be there to experience it.     What did it feel like before you were born?     I can only live my life on the information that I derrive from my senses, and the analysis of the natural world, ie. science by use of my rational faculties and I refuse to believe that God, if he exists, would punish me for using the very skills he apparently gave me. The very idea of that is insulting and undeserving of an intelligent individual such as yourself.     Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 16:52:18" I see so many people talk about faith yet have no idea what it is. Blind faith is not Biblical. Blind faith can be described as going up a 100 ft tower and jumping off without equipment, trusting that you won't go splat, and just float down.   Actual faith is a trust you put in something or someone, and is always based on something. If I have faith that my son will take out the garbage, I trust that he will. Based on what? Based on past experiences. Based on how he reacted to his responsibilities in the past. If he had neglected his responsibilities in the past I couldn't have faith in him to do the task unless I choose to trust foolishly.   heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   Heb 11:1 CJV Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.   Heb11:1 OJB Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.   since Emunah is the hebrew word translated into faith, checking that definition would get us closer to the intended meaning.   What do I base my Faith on? The Fact that God keeps his promises, that he keeps his word. look at prophecy both good and bad. Have not a lot come to pass, even in the last 100 years. are not some still future, that me can keep an eye on? The evidence of biblical events in archeology. Can we not still go out to Sodom and collect brimstone (that are over 99% pure surfer and burn hot enough as to melt glass if you happen to light a piece. Has not the red sea crossing site been discovered with Egyptian chariot remains encrusted in corral found on the bottom of the reed sea. <:a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NuAkXUwu0/">:The Red Sea Crossing<:/a>:   So no I don't have blind faith, It is based on something. But I agree, many people trust blindly and really can't defend their position. " The internet where religion has come to die archeologist say there is very little evidence Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed let alone going out and picking up brimstone's Ron Wyatt who has made the videos on finding just about everything biblical, Noah's ark the red sea crossing and Sodom and Gomorrah is not an archeologist and there is no record of him doing any of these digs because you need to be an archeologist to get the permit to do so, he claims he had verbal permission, even answer in Genesis the premier creationist web site distance them selves from Ron Wyatt hes a known charlitain and grifter who has been debunked on everything he ever did a simple Google search blows your proof out of the water admit it you have faith and nothing else " Is Google your God?   Have you watched any of the videos I linked?   Have you gone out and visited those sites as proof against me?   Yes the red sea crossing site has been found!   Yes Sodom has been found!   have you been on any of the tours in taking you out into the desert to show you the ruins?   Yes mount Sinai in Arabia has been found!   Yes those things serve as confirmation of my faith.   Is it the only confirmation I have? of course not. There are the promises and the prophecies. Like I said before , that only scratches the surface.   Did you watch any of the videos I linked? based on your statement I know you didn't.   But I believe you found something you have faith in. GOOGLE. You show quite a bit of trust for it.   Do you not realize at one time the majority believed the Earth was Flat?   Do you not realize that at one time the majority believed the Sun revolved around the earth?   You will NOT find truth by Google what the Majority say. If you look at History the Majority was wrong quite often. You have to go check for yourself.     I sincerely Hope you have some better proof against me than Google. It's kinda like me coming back from Niagara Falls and you telling me your group of friends claim waterfalls don't exist.   " These sites where not found I have seen Ron Wyatt s videos guess where on google and you tube he has been dismissed by scientists archeologists biblical scholars even the leaders of his own church called him a fraud.   This crap is old debunked years ago   "

Again, you didn't watch the video. it is post ron wyatt. At least check it out before you make assumptions on who made it. And its not about a person, it's about the content. and I really believe there is a difference between debunked and dismissed. I think Ron's name is mentioned in the video but it is not made by him nor sponsored by him. (As if that would actually define truth)

Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "    Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "and there is a Heaven. Because of my personal experiences I believe!     As for all the horrible stuff that happens everyday? Life is a lesson... " I rest my case.     What exactly is the lesson to be learned from children starving to death before they're even 2 years old?     What a horrible and immoral way to look at life.         Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 14:17:49" and you blame God? How about man's inhumanity to man? " Once again, I don’t blame god because I don’t believe he exists. Do you understand?     Christians contend that God is all good and all powerful, yet there are places in the world where the only thing people accomplish in their short life is suffer and die of malnutrition and disease, we can’t help them all, we don’t have the chance or even know about it in many of cases. The point I was trying to make is, what is the point of creating something where the only thing it does is suffer and die when you have the ultimate power to stop it? Remember, god is omniscient, he knows that child will suffer before it even happens and that no one will help it. He CAN change things, but he doesn’t.     And you want to turn this around and say that it’s man’s fault that this happens? It isn’t anyone’s fault, it just is. But if we grant you that god exists, and he watches this happen, then how in the hell can Christians claim that he’s both all good AND all powerful. No, sorry. Doesn’t follow.     Either he’s all powerful but doesn’t care to help, making him evil or he’s all good but can’t help, making him impotent. Can't have it both ways.     Take the story of creation of Adam and Eve for example. Christians love this one because they claim it explains how sin and disease came about and how it’s all attributable to these two (but mostly the woman) of god’s original humans. So god creates these perfect beings whom he apparently loves to no end, he creates them perfect, gives them a perfect place to live in paradise, everything’s great. That's it, Right?     Wrong.     No, god’s not happy with that, he has to create a caveat, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right and wrong, and tells his perfect beings not to eat of the fruit, not only that, but he allows satan (whom apparently can do whatever the hell he wants with impunity) to tempt Adam and Eve. Why? Why do that?   Would you tell your own kids “hey, I love you, but ill only love you if you don’t eat this cake in the fridge” and then allow a magical pixie, whom you also created to follow them around and try to trick them into eating the cake. And when they inevitably fail you strike them with disease and death, and their children, and their children’s children FOREVER. That’s not the actions of a loving parent, that’s the actions of a psychopath.     BUT TORQUE, THEY HAD FREE WILL!!!11     So what?     If I create a maze for rats with two exits, one to freedom and the other to a mouse trap and death, am I blameless when the rat chooses wrong and gets killed? Sure the rat had free will to choose the right path, but I created the SITUATION. I cannot be completely blameless ESPECIALLY if i'm going to bait the game against the rats. (Satan)     It amazes me how good people, who are kind in their daily life like most ebrandon-ers are I’m sure, will contort their own human decency to try to defend and apologize for some of the most absurd BS in scripture. They’ll say things like “oh well you have to be faithful before you can understand the bible” or “god was just teaching us a lesson” or “you have to read it in context”, as if there was some context under which owning someone else as property or murdering babies is ok. We’re talking about things written by people who knew less about the world around them than an average 8 year old today.     We live in a harsh world, we face serious problems. Proverbially throwing up your hands and saying Jesus take the wheel is ludicrous, yet that’s the theme that pervades almost all the Christian arguments in almost every one of these discussions on god when they come up. “Well there is a god, and he loves me but not you and he’ll take care of everything, and when I die I get to keep living”. Come on people. We need to collectively grow up as a species.                   Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 21:21:34"

I guess, going by what you are saying, If there was a God, no one in this world would ever suffer, no one would starve, no one would ever get murdered, no one would get a life threatening illness and no one would die? That's Dreamland baby!

I guess you could call it that. I think its also called Heaven. God is alive and has given everyone the freedom of choice. He will not force anything on anyone, but the choice is up to people. Its simple really. Faith the size of a mustard seed. He is always there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of faith. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus.

M&J said "I guess you could call it that. I think its also called Heaven. God is alive and has given everyone the freedom of choice. He will not force anything on anyone, but the choice is up to people. Its simple really. Faith the size of a mustard seed. He is always there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of faith. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus. "

rum stated:  
 
heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  
 
Therefore lets look at your quote:  
 
Faith the size of a mustard seed. He is always there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of faith. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus.  
 
Faith is hope. Therefore:  
 
Hope the size of a mustard seed. He is hopefully there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of hope. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus...hopefully.  
 
By all means, live a just and moral life with your heart full of hope but don't claim that I am somehow flawed or broken because I don' see the need to live a life of hopeful servitude.  
 
Torque - preach it brother! I agree with everything you've said. I think I recognize a little Sam Harris in there?  
 
Committed2Brandon - I'm going to need a day to respond to your post.  
 
Marpet.  
 
 

You can't argue with faith. You could never just sit a religious person down, and convince them through indisputable facts and logic that they are wrong. Most religious people were brought into their faith from childhood, when their tender minds would accept anything an adult told them as absolute truth, and carry it into their own adulthood to continue the cycle to their own children. They are effectively and in most cases irreversibly brainwashed.  

Nordberg said "Rum     Some places exist.     That does not make the bible true. There is a Mount Sinai. There is a Reed Sea. There is a place believed to be Sodom.     Just because the Bible mentions some places that exist, and some ruins are incorporated into its stories, does not make it real.     ==================     There is no God, not as exists in the bible anyway. Is it possible that the galaxy or the universe as a whole contain beings that an un-advanced civilization such as us would perceive as gods? It's possible and perhaps even mathematically probable. But such a being would have evolved somewhere else in the Universe through natural processes.     The bible doesn't prove itself, that would be circular logic. However, by looking at the many discrepancies and the sheer impossibilities within its pages, it could be said that it easily disproves itself.     There is no scientific evidence for God. None, zero, nada. The only claims I've seen otherwise are from "scientific organizations" fully funded by some kind of religious ministry.     The Universe most likely began with a big bang 13.798 ±0.037 billion years ago and proceeded to expand out from there to where we are today. Everything you see, hear, touch, and even feel are the products of physical and chemical laws that govern that universe since the initial event. Nothing more, nothing less.     No god(s) needed.   "

It is not just that those places exist, but what is found at those places confirm the account as given in Scripture. does that prove the Scripture right? That might be debatable, but what is not is that it is highly favorable to the authenticity of scripture.  
Nordberg, your blanket statement against the existence of God seems to me that you do not even leave it open as a possibility. It is impossible to prove the existence of anything to anyone who outright rejects the very idea. So because of that it is impossible to prove God to you.  
You say there is no scientific evidence for God. I would disagree but it is a pointless argument because I believe science to you will not accept a supernatural explanation therefore if God is supernatural The scientific minds you turn to will not accept him as an explanation. The ones I will quote do. Because of this we end up thinking the other viewpoint is bios towards a certain view.  
So I believe in the Beginning God created everything. You believe in the beginning practically nothing exploded creating the enormous amount of matter. (or all matter was squashed to the size of a period and then exploded) I believe those theory's keep changing/updated on me me so maybe now they got a better idea what exploded. but based on those to facts and the information available, who has more faith you or me. ( the way I define faith is it exchangeable with trust.  
I know you say you have no faith, but facts, but my goal is truth. If the truth is messy, so be it. if it is scarey, so be it. if it is mean, so be it.  
I will admit I believe I found truth in scripture. are my words Inspired? No, I'm sure my understanding can be in error at times and that is precisely why my goal remains for truth.  
You say no God needed, even if that were the case it does not rule out his existence. If paper would not be needed for the world to exist, would that mean paper doesn't exist. It is truth that matters not the could be scenarios.  
I have read quite a few of your post in the past and know already I couldn't convince you as you are closed on God. I also Know you wouldn't be able to convince me either as I believe myself to be well grounded in my faith.

I have watched your video I am very familiar with Ron Wyatt Ive watched many of his videos he died in 1999 his followers have been circulating them ever since, they are very well done and convincing, but he doesn't check out all 15 of his major biblical discoverys debunked by real archeologist and geologists and biblical scholars even the leaders of his own church church called him a fraud Answers in Genesis Ken Hams group called him a fraud and warned people about using his videos as evidence

Marpet said "    M&J said "I guess you could call it that. I think its also called Heaven. God is alive and has given everyone the freedom of choice. He will not force anything on anyone, but the choice is up to people. Its simple really. Faith the size of a mustard seed. He is always there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of faith. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus. " rum stated:     heb 11:1 kJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.     Therefore lets look at your quote:     Faith the size of a mustard seed. He is always there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of faith. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus.     Faith is hope. Therefore:     Hope the size of a mustard seed. He is hopefully there for anyone at anytime. We simply have to take a step of hope. Proclaim with your mouth and believe in your heart and anyone can have a relationship with jesus...hopefully.     By all means, live a just and moral life with your heart full of hope but don't claim that I am somehow flawed or broken because I don' see the need to live a life of hopeful servitude.     Torque - preach it brother! I agree with everything you've said. I think I recognize a little Sam Harris in there?     Committed2Brandon - I'm going to need a day to respond to your post.     Marpet.       "

Faith is not hope. It is trust. Trust in what? Trust that God will do What he said he would do, based on the fact that if he says something it will happen. look at prophecy. The hope that it is talking about are the promises and statements of God in scripture. That is why Quoted multiple versions. They are what they are: translations.

do people who believe in God argue with people who don't? Seems pointless to me, no one is going to change their minds, at least not the people on this thread by the looks of it.  
 

Nordberg said "Paper doesn't have to exist in the universe, but we know it does because we have evidence of it.     My evidence of paper? There's at least 15 pounds of it sitting directly in front of me in different forms.     Your paper argument is specious because it is a bad metaphor, and an apparent attempt at a red herring.     In your view of the universe, God has to exist because he created it. However, the actual physical evidence and laws don't require the construct that you call God. God in this case is a useless construct when brought into reality.     The universe that actually exists does not require paper or God to exist. The fact that paper exists is just a side product of the natural forces at play on this particular planet. We know paper exists because it has measurable physical properties which we can see, touch, and most importantly... measure.     God on the other hand we cannot see, we cannot touch, but most importantly, we cannot measure in any way shape or form.     Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-11 23:39:17"

"God on the other hand we cannot see, we cannot touch, but most importantly, we cannot measure in any way shape or form."  
 
Which must mean you can not confidently say does not exist. Based on How you defined God you can't prove he doesn't exist.  
 
I used the paper argument because we both know it exists. We also know The world could exist without it. could I have used something else? Yes, but that one made my point.  
And Yes my view of the universe is God Had to exist because he created it. I admit that. And is a lot more necessary than paper. I admit that too.

Im not a Christian because im strong and have it all together. Im a christian because i am weak and admit i need a savior. Something to ponder. What is the purpose of life and being human? A little hard to believe people go through ups and dowms and pains and struggles of life. Kust for no real reason ornpurpose but to die and thats that. Inside each person there is a purpose to worship the creator. And have hope. Without purpose and hope found in him, life to me seems pretty empty.

Like I said I'm not religious and I'm not a atheist. I feel we as humans haven't even begun to scratch the surface of physics and what is or isn't possible. So it's hard to say if gods could exist or couldn't.  
 
I doubt we'll get the answer anytime soon, so I'll treat god and religion like Schrodinger's cat, they exist and yet they don't. And until I get hard proof one way or the other I'll just do what I feel like.  
 
 

Johnbisonbear said "    Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "    Torque said "    Johnbisonbear said "and there is a Heaven. Because of my personal experiences I believe!     As for all the horrible stuff that happens everyday? Life is a lesson... " I rest my case.     What exactly is the lesson to be learned from children starving to death before they're even 2 years old?     What a horrible and immoral way to look at life.         Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 14:17:49" and you blame God? How about man's inhumanity to man? " Once again, I don’t blame god because I don’t believe he exists. Do you understand?     Christians contend that God is all good and all powerful, yet there are places in the world where the only thing people accomplish in their short life is suffer and die of malnutrition and disease, we can’t help them all, we don’t have the chance or even know about it in many of cases. The point I was trying to make is, what is the point of creating something where the only thing it does is suffer and die when you have the ultimate power to stop it? Remember, god is omniscient, he knows that child will suffer before it even happens and that no one will help it. He CAN change things, but he doesn’t.     And you want to turn this around and say that it’s man’s fault that this happens? It isn’t anyone’s fault, it just is. But if we grant you that god exists, and he watches this happen, then how in the hell can Christians claim that he’s both all good AND all powerful. No, sorry. Doesn’t follow.     Either he’s all powerful but doesn’t care to help, making him evil or he’s all good but can’t help, making him impotent. Can't have it both ways.     Take the story of creation of Adam and Eve for example. Christians love this one because they claim it explains how sin and disease came about and how it’s all attributable to these two (but mostly the woman) of god’s original humans. So god creates these perfect beings whom he apparently loves to no end, he creates them perfect, gives them a perfect place to live in paradise, everything’s great. That's it, Right?     Wrong.     No, god’s not happy with that, he has to create a caveat, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right and wrong, and tells his perfect beings not to eat of the fruit, not only that, but he allows satan (whom apparently can do whatever the hell he wants with impunity) to tempt Adam and Eve. Why? Why do that?   Would you tell your own kids “hey, I love you, but ill only love you if you don’t eat this cake in the fridge” and then allow a magical pixie, whom you also created to follow them around and try to trick them into eating the cake. And when they inevitably fail you strike them with disease and death, and their children, and their children’s children FOREVER. That’s not the actions of a loving parent, that’s the actions of a psychopath.     BUT TORQUE, THEY HAD FREE WILL!!!11     So what?     If I create a maze for rats with two exits, one to freedom and the other to a mouse trap and death, am I blameless when the rat chooses wrong and gets killed? Sure the rat had free will to choose the right path, but I created the SITUATION. I cannot be completely blameless ESPECIALLY if i'm going to bait the game against the rats. (Satan)     It amazes me how good people, who are kind in their daily life like most ebrandon-ers are I’m sure, will contort their own human decency to try to defend and apologize for some of the most absurd BS in scripture. They’ll say things like “oh well you have to be faithful before you can understand the bible” or “god was just teaching us a lesson” or “you have to read it in context”, as if there was some context under which owning someone else as property or murdering babies is ok. We’re talking about things written by people who knew less about the world around them than an average 8 year old today.     We live in a harsh world, we face serious problems. Proverbially throwing up your hands and saying Jesus take the wheel is ludicrous, yet that’s the theme that pervades almost all the Christian arguments in almost every one of these discussions on god when they come up. “Well there is a god, and he loves me but not you and he’ll take care of everything, and when I die I get to keep living”. Come on people. We need to collectively grow up as a species.                   Edited by Torque, 2015-06-11 21:21:34" I guess, going by what you are saying, If there was a God, no one in this world would ever suffer, no one would starve, no one would ever get murdered, no one would get a life threatening illness and no one would die? That's Dreamland baby! "

NO! Noone would. Not if he was a GOOD all loving god as christians incessantly trumpet.  
 
And why is that dreamland? According to scripture it already existed with Adam and Eve before the fall. Before god decided to become an angry kid with a magnifying glass on an ant hill.  
 
Look, If I'm God, and I love you without end. More than a mother loves her child. I created you in my own image, I want nothing but for you to love me and have a relationship with you.  
 
There is absolutely no need for any of the other crap. None. What. So. Ever.  
 
It's within his power to create a universe where no harm exists, where people can't fathom what harming something means, where we don't need to eat to live, noone is killed by anything, where we live forever in bliss. You know exactly what I'm talking about because you would would call that heaven.  
 
But no, we have to pass some ridiculous (but crucial to avoid hell) test set by a being who won't make himself evident despite giving us rational faculties, passed on to us by some illiterate desert dwellers through a giant game of "telephone" even though in certain asian regions people could already read and write. We have to (collectively) endure famine, disease, wars. We have to abandon our rational faculties that have kept us alive for centuries, and to top it off we have to thank him for it and grovel lest he torture us forever. But he LOVES us....  
 
To be created sick and commanded to be well is not morality, it saddens me that people think god should be commended and worshipped for this.  
 
Marpet - Yeah thats Sam Harris, good eye. Should have cited him but i think it's pointless for this style of discussion.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Torque, 2015-06-12 07:31:27

rum said "    Nordberg said "Paper doesn't have to exist in the universe, but we know it does because we have evidence of it.     My evidence of paper? There's at least 15 pounds of it sitting directly in front of me in different forms.     Your paper argument is specious because it is a bad metaphor, and an apparent attempt at a red herring.     In your view of the universe, God has to exist because he created it. However, the actual physical evidence and laws don't require the construct that you call God. God in this case is a useless construct when brought into reality.     The universe that actually exists does not require paper or God to exist. The fact that paper exists is just a side product of the natural forces at play on this particular planet. We know paper exists because it has measurable physical properties which we can see, touch, and most importantly... measure.     God on the other hand we cannot see, we cannot touch, but most importantly, we cannot measure in any way shape or form.     Edited by Nordberg, 2015-06-11 23:39:17" "God on the other hand we cannot see, we cannot touch, but most importantly, we cannot measure in any way shape or form."     Which must mean you can not confidently say does not exist. Based on How you defined God you can't prove he doesn't exist.     I used the paper argument because we both know it exists. We also know The world could exist without it. could I have used something else? Yes, but that one made my point.   And Yes my view of the universe is God Had to exist because he created it. I admit that. And is a lot more necessary than paper. I admit that too. "

As Nordberg has eloquently pointed out by quoting Bertrand Russell, it's not up to us to disprove a god. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.  
 
I know many atheists, and very few of them would say there is 100% no god. What they may say is (and i've seen Nordberg mention it, and he can correct me if I'm wrong)is that the god of the bible doesn't exist. That's a different idea than "no god can exist" because god as he is depicted in the bible is a self-contradictory proposition. He doesn't even make sense, nevermind the fact that he's portrayed to be a maniac with a severe phychopatic tendancies.  
 
Also, to your point that God has to exist because he created the universe. All that serves to do is set up an infinite regress. Who created god? And if you say he's infinite then i can claim the same for the universe, It's a non-answer merry-go-round that's been used by apologists for years.  
 
I don't care what you claim, I only care what you can prove. Observing a universe does not make necessary a universe-making god. Observing a table does not make necessary a table-making god. And because we don't understand something does not legitimize inserting a "god did it"  
 
If all it takes to convince you that there's a god is that there's a universe and you exist in it, then that's fine. I hold nothing against you. Some of us require just a bit more.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Torque, 2015-06-12 07:25:43