Discussions

We’re in it together so no need to be too personal over it. Let’s just all try to ensure that our sources are credible news sources that have to be accountable for what they publish, it is difficult but there is much misinformation out there.  
China is a massive pork producer and they indeed are building their beef herd among other things. In the case of China we have very little say in the matter as pretty much all of their production is for their own domestic use.  
They do import soy and canola amongst other product. China is incapable of feeding their own population, they just don’t have enough suitable land, so given the current Chinese population they will always be a net food importer. Their situation has worsened with the advent of African swine fever causing them to ramp up imports of all proteins and yes increase their own beef herd. China is not really a food exporting nation and likely never will be. I am not really sure how we can influence that market. Canadian canola and American soy is still being imported by China through third party countries to circumvent their own tariffs and restrictions. Most of my sources are from the western producer amongst other publications, I am not really into research on the internet as it can be an extremely unreliable source. You can pretty much publish whatever you please on the internet whether true or not.

There isn't much grounds for logical discussion with a vegan who denies basic nutritional science, or a multi million year human diet, or peer reviewed studies.  
 
As mentioned just above, if searching the internet based on faith it can be a difficult task.  
 
I find vegans deny any relation to the natural world, or our role in it.  
They would prefer to live out of chemical factories, or as if we were passengers on the Enterprise.  
 
I'm not a fan of extreme political correctness based on faith alone. Fortunately your stilted views are in the minority. But, carry on, it's an interesting study.

As Farmergeorge had pointed out...  
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-trade-soybeans-idUSKBN1WT08U  
 
Chinese soybean imports are at a level to supply human demands for cooking oil with the meal used as pig feed and poultry feed.  
 
The beef industry is largely small scale and grass fed.  
 
https://www.drovers.com/article/cattle-and-beef-production-china  
 
With 1.4 billion people, Chinese beef production is quite modest compared to western countries.

Five years ago I spent 10 days in hospital with a perforated colon, that really isn’t important, but ever morning I was greeted by a nurse who asked me a question. The question was, Mr. Brown has you passed gas today, strange greeting, but reason behind it was they were making sure my gastrointestinal system was working.  
In discussions like this a person gets to do a lot of reasearch. Farmer George mentioned how he fed cattle, which made me look into how we feed cattle, and how feeding cattle can reduce the production of methane. There is research being done on a vaccine to give cattle that affects microbes in the gut system, reducing certain microbes in the stomach of cattle can reduce the production of methane, but what are the results of altering microbes in a cows gut.  
Then there was reasearch on fiber levels of the diet itself, higher fiber level higher methane levels, so balancing a ration is important.  
Now maybe I haven’t put the pieces together correctly, but I decided to look into bloating and gas in humans, it really came as no surprise that if you increase levels of fiber in a human you get more bloating and production of methane. I should of provided a link about which foods increase the production of bloating and gas in humans, but decided that those who are interested in digestion creating methane should look at the list for humans, for those of you who believe that a certain diet of grains and vegetables, might have something to be concerned about, especially if your concern is about methane.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2019-11-04 07:08:27

I have presented information from credible sources Garry. I have not just searched the internet on blind faith, I have given you strong peer reviewed evidence of what we have been talking about. Your choosing to dismiss it as its not what fits with what you believe.  
 
Your now trying to make information fit your view point by stating China is not a major cattle producer because they have lots of people? As a global player they DO produce a whole heck a lot of cattle.  
 
I am guessing you have had some bad experiences with "vegans" as your wild assumptions about them is extreme. Your viewpoints are rooted in some old school belief that we should all be eating like cavemen.  
 
Also, if you have read any of my posts you would know i dont live out of a chemical lab or on the star ship enterprise lol. Clearly i have stated that i eat a whole food balanced diet. It was also pointed out that i support meat eaters and understand a balanced diet can be healthy. Its when you get to the extremes of a diet that health problems begin to happen Yes that i:ncludes vegans as you seem to love/hate that term and that also i:ncludes meat eaters. Typically people who are in the middle eating balanced diets from whole natural foods have decent health.  
 
Your attempt to continually deny what is being presented and counter it is reminiscent of someone drowning, your grasping for something yet keep missing and have sunk so deep there is no return for you. Thank goodness your ignorance and inability to discuss intelligently is in the minority as the world would be much worse if the likes of you were in charge.  
 
Edited by Your Majesty, 2019-11-04 07:48:44

It's always easy to win straw man arguments.  
 
And drowning, and in desperate shape, no less... Oh my, that does sound like a victory...  
 
If you recall, you stated strongly that Brazil was being deforested for beef production. When questioned why their grass fed industry would feed soy, you stated it was going to China to feed beef there. Now, after being corrected multiple times on basic facts (proven quite wrong), you have declared a resounding victory.  
 
So I don't know how to describe that as other than delusional belief / alternate facts. In your world beef is bad because China imports soy, and in your mind has converted their vast small herds and grass fed stock to American style feedlots.  
 
So sure, if we buy all that, you doubtless are correct.  
 
But back in reality, as I say, an interesting study in faith over facts.  
 
Edited by GarryTait, 2019-11-04 08:25:11

Your now focused on one small factor of our entire discussion? You want a victory so badly you need to zero in on the minutiae of how much soy is produced vs cattle? Bottom line, research and FACTS show the amazon is being burnt down for cattle production and soy bean production. Those soy beans end up as animal feed with China acting as the main purchaser of those soy beans. That is information that is all over the internet from credible sources as presented earlier. Your refusing to even read that and instead try desperately to argue with me over this one detail.  
 
I fully recognize the benefit of cattle and their ability to keep lands fertile among other things. I also recognize that there are more sustainable ways to raise cattle and process them, again as discussed earlier. Farmergeorge has pointed out many of those methods which i fully agreed with. It seems your the one holding on to your faith without even taking whats being presented as possibly valid. Your hatred for those that are different than you is clouding your ability to see clearly Garry. Tread carefully.

I'm not seeing much value in a discussion where basic facts draw insults and images of drowning, etc.  
 
I think it's best just to agree that the soy and beef business regarding China has been put to bed.  
 
And up until a year ago they were using Canadian canola for the same poultry and swine operations. Now in view of the swine epidemic they will be greatly expanding poultry production. The reproductive cycle of beef is too long to meet the demand, and the great majority of Chinese won't find beef at all affordable. In searching it was interesting to learn about the small holding and grass fed Chinese beef industry.  
 
As for the original methane - cattle issue, this was also largely dispelled by others further back in the thread. There are huge differences in resource use, emissions and ecological services rendered between different regional beef populations . It makes a grand straw man argument to cite data from some American feedlot study and extrapolate it. I see far more benefits in ecological services and carbon retention from our standard beef raising than from any number of monoculture fields of quinoa or lentils.  
 
So essentially the greatest part of this anti beef / anti animal raising thread has been put to bed.

Right and you have just been a saint in this whole matter? Your comments have been equally critical and personal. I have been trying to discuss this with facts and information and everything i present, you immediately dismiss due to your own bias. I have again and again used credible sources which you dismiss. Its hard to have a intelligent discussion with folks when they wont even open themselves up to information presented.  
 
I again have stated numerous times the benefit of raising cattle. I have also stated as others that there are more sustainable ways to raising cattle globally.  
 
The methane issue has not been put to bed. The science and data is clear, livestock production globally has a major impact on the environment and contributes to climate change. Hence why the industry is developing new processes and strategies to mitigate their carbon footprint.  
 
Your taking this discussion to heart as some attack against beef. On the contrary if anything this is about improving the industry and making them more sustainable for the future. Something ALL industries need to do if the human race stands any chance of long term survival.

The back down is interesting. The Canadian beef industry is already in the ideal state you claim you would like to see. As is the Chinese industry by and large apparently.  
 
Balsonero greenlighting destruction of the Amazon is tragic, but largely a matter of their internal politics. I doubt the land will even be very productive in the near term. International trade in commodities is the larger issue. But, as pointed out, China is in a very hard spot, they probably can't feed their population so need external supplies.  
 
And, as for the methane, we know from examination of the facts that cattle are a relatively mimor emissions source. Eliminating natural gas use would make more sense. And various other things like landfill emissions.  
 
And now climate warming has probably outstripped all other emissions combined. Given these facts it is hard to see the vitriol as other than an anti animal raising agenda, and a rather stilted one.