Discussions

Given all of the headline news over the past few days concerning the United States decision to relocate the US embassy to Jerusalem and take the position that it will be the capital, I know many people hear about this conflict over and over, but I suspect many do not know much about what it really means and what the fight is all about.  
 
I do not pretend to know a whole lot on the issue, but it strikes me that a discussion should start with the fact that the country "Israel" was not actually a country until after World War II. In fact, the country Israel was founded on May 14, 1948 and the circumstances leading up to the creation of that stat has been the reason for all of the tension and wars in this region over the last 70 years. People should research this history and come to their own conclusions, but the territory known as Palestine has been the homeland for arabs for the last about 2,000 years. It was only when a movement to create a new jewish state imposed into these territories after World War II, that we have seen all of the conflict since this time (1948).  
 
For a good summary of the history of this region, you can read the following article/summary:  
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/20436092  
 
 
 
But it would be interesting to know what people actually think of this situation, and especially after learning about the real history of this area of the globe.

my opinion only , the creation of israel was a big mistake and i do not see how it could be corrected now. being jewish was always a religion , not a nationality . the jewish people complain about their treatment in the past and then treat the palestinians very poorly.

interested should first read the Balfour Declaration and then acknowledge that Israel declared itself a State in 1948.

MDG said "interested should first read the Balfour Declaration and then acknowledge that Israel declared itself a State in 1948. "

Anybody that knows anything about the Rothschild Family Empire that are among the world's most wealthy family with beginnings as some of the world's first bankers, should know that Lionel Walter Rothschild "worked to formulate the draft declaration for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. On 2 November 1917 he received a letter from the British foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour, addressed to his London home at 148 Piccadilly. In this letter the British government declared its support for the establishment in Palestine of "a national home for the Jewish people". This letter became known as the Balfour Declaration."  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Rothschild_2nd_Baron_Rothschild  
 
ROTHSCHILD FAMILY:  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family

Some interesting news articles that refer to Trump and the Second Balfour Declaration:  
 
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171108-between-the-balfour-declaration-and-trumps-declaration/  
 
Posted within the last hour:  
 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-leader-trump-move-a-second-balfour-declaration/  
 
With Trumps recent actions, prepare for another significant middle-east war, folks...

Last I looked Palestine was a territory for 2000 years not a true country. Closest they did get was in 1947/48 when the league of Nations offered them space. They refused. Israel took them up on it.  
 
They would have even more space today if Egypt did not block aid the Red Sea in 66/67 making Israel fight for its life against it''s Arab neighbours. As far as this weeks news with Trump moving its Embassy to Jerusalem. He should have left it for now.  
 
Having said that Abbas ( I think) the PLO leader says religious wars will continue forever if he does move it to Jerusalem is right. Except in that region it will anyways. It is like a sport for them I think.  
 
Edited by Doug, 2017-12-07 14:33:18

After WW II the Russians, British, and Americans drew lines on a map of the world. They arbitrarily made up lines. This whole concept of countries and borders is a modern one.  
 
Neither one of these two sides recognizes the other, and, neither will "go first" in any attempt for peace. Each is equal in blame and neither accepts any blame. It is a decades long game of name calling and finger pointing.

Yep there is enough to go around. One peeve I had and has increased a tad is how the Arabs seem to have few answers.  
Gaza in particular is a UN welfare State. All the while we have some of the richest countries in the world around them. Religion is a big part of the problem but not as big as chickensh@t politics.  
 
Close the Israeli/Gaza border and create jobs in Gaza. Open a port and make sure the UN keeps it open. Build/make/invent. The West bank is another issue. Even tougher to fix with settlers etc.

Kirmit said "    MDG said "interested should first read the Balfour Declaration and then acknowledge that Israel declared itself a State in 1948. " Anybody that knows anything about the Rothschild Family Empire that are among the world's most wealthy family with beginnings as some of the world's first bankers, should know that Lionel Walter Rothschild "worked to formulate the draft declaration for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. On 2 November 1917 he received a letter from the British foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour, addressed to his London home at 148 Piccadilly. In this letter the British government declared its support for the establishment in Palestine of "a national home for the Jewish people". This letter became known as the Balfour Declaration."     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Rothschild_2nd_Baron_Rothschild     ROTHSCHILD FAMILY:     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family "

the Balfour Agreement i:ncludes "being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine . . . . . . ."

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the situation in Israel.  
 
Can someone explain to me how one country i.e. US can decide and declare what the capital of another country is?

You do know that Canada under Joe Clark tried this first in 1979?

Tacye said "I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the situation in Israel.     Can someone explain to me how one country i.e. US can decide and declare what the capital of another country is? "

Yes, absolutely a great question.  
 
I can't explain it, other than the fact that no country is actually independent. We saw that the the colonising of countries all over the world by the British Empire, including Canada and the problems we see with the historic treatment of indigenous peoples (including residential schools, and assimilation practices). Palestine is yet one more example of the destruction left behind by England's (and the US and Russia) quest of taking over foreign lands through forced colonisation of other cultures. Truth be told, this situation is a creation by England, and has been overtaken by the US.  
 
So the question of the day is, is any country actually independent, or are they simply ruled by puppets forced to abide by the rules set by the world's ruling elite? What you often see when the appointed rulers of country break sides with these powers, is that they get assassinated, overthrown, or thrust into war or financial ruin.

Palestine's Capital Jerusalem Being Overthrown By USA And Israel:  
 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/palestinians-in-ramallah-protest-u-s-announcement-on-jerusalem-because-city-is-like-our-second-mother-1.4437705

has it's government offices already there and has been since 1949. Israel has always considered Jerusalem as it's capital. It's just internationally that countries have shied away from calling it the capital of Israel. And the city hosts no foreign embassies.  
 
Jerusalem is a very old city and has been in existence since 2400 BCE. The 3 main Abrahamic religions call it their 'holy city'. It's all just a complicated mess that has been happening since it's early history. Guess this is what happens when you have major religions vying for control of one area and basing them on the one area.  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

There is a person in this world who is supposed to be a very important international figure, but for some reason I believe that he wakes up every morning, and the first thing that crosses his mind is, who's porridge will I pi## in today.  
 
HISTORY!!!  
 
It amazes me that a man who is so big on his country, cannot take his nations history and relate it to some of the decisions that he makes.  
His country was involved in a civil war because people maybe were not seperated by religion, but were seperated by difference in ideas about other things, and this differences led to a war that seperated the nation and cost many lives.  
Now for the interesting part. Up here in Canada we really never had a civil war like they had in the US, and settled on a capital city of Ottawa ontario. In the US the civil war led to hatred between the North and South that was intense, and there are still carry overs of that today, but the nation came together and a compromise led to the capital of Washington, not being in a state, but in the District of Columbia, created by land given up by two states.  
I won't go into whether it was right or wrong to create the country of Israel, but the city of Jerusalem plays a major part in the religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims, and for many years the world, as well as leaders in the US knew that defining the city to any party that wish to claim it for their capital would be a mistake,and destroy any possibility of a peaceful resolution to the difference in religious beliefs.  
 
Now this is just my opinion, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to look at history in an attempt to settle problems, saddly this was not done in this situation, and on the world stage the US has lost all credibility as a neutral party,  
World superpower maybe, world leader definitely not.

I applaud President Trump for recognizing the capital of Israel. He did not make Jerusalem the capital of Israel. He only recognized what the Israelis have long considered their capital. The Israelis have their government facilities in Jerusalem. This is the reality that trump recognized.  
Jerusalem was made the capital of Israel by King David nearly 3000 years ago. It remained the capital of Israel till Rome destroyed the city nearly 2000 years ago. in the last 2000 years it hasn't been a capital of any nation. Now with the return of the nation of Israel as a country, there is nothing wrong with the Israelis reestablishing it as there capital as they have done from the very start.

Could this be the start of the prophesied apocalypse?

MarshalltheTechCat said "Could this be the start of the prophesied apocalypse? "

Like this might be it! What should we do?

don brown said "There is a person in this world who is supposed to be a very important international figure, but for some reason I believe that he wakes up every morning, and the first thing that crosses his mind is, who's porridge will I pi## in today.     HISTORY!!!     It amazes me that a man who is so big on his country, cannot take his nations history and relate it to some of the decisions that he makes.   His country was involved in a civil war because people maybe were not seperated by religion, but were seperated by difference in ideas about other things, and this differences led to a war that seperated the nation and cost many lives.   Now for the interesting part. Up here in Canada we really never had a civil war like they had in the US, and settled on a capital city of Ottawa ontario. In the US the civil war led to hatred between the North and South that was intense, and there are still carry overs of that today, but the nation came together and a compromise led to the capital of Washington, not being in a state, but in the District of Columbia, created by land given up by two states.   I won't go into whether it was right or wrong to create the country of Israel, but the city of Jerusalem plays a major part in the religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims, and for many years the world, as well as leaders in the US knew that defining the city to any party that wish to claim it for their capital would be a mistake,and destroy any possibility of a peaceful resolution to the difference in religious beliefs.     Now this is just my opinion, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to look at history in an attempt to settle problems, saddly this was not done in this situation, and on the world stage the US has lost all credibility as a neutral party,   World superpower maybe, world leader definitely not. "

Post!  
The creation of Isteal created problems in the Middle East from the start. I never cared for Middle Eastern politics until going to Golan Heights. That openned my eyes to the history and struggles of the area. For all the pain and suffering the Jews endured during the 2nd WW they have since inflicted (in irony) their own share of misery on the Palestinians. I absolutely love your comparison of US North and South struggles and the solution agreed upon for the US capitol. A similar solution could certainly be discussed regarding Jerusalem. Having said that, Jerusalem never should have been part of the creation of Israel. Brighter minds would have had Jerulem in a district outside of Israel proper, under whose rule? Not sure, maybe UN. Maybe it could be considerred within a Peace agreement, but Trump''s announcement makes this reality bleak indeed. Great post Don, Tks!  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-12-08 00:17:25

the fact Trump's announcement that the U.S. recognizes this city as Israel's capital has caused this, should come as no surprise.  
 
Israel is trying to negotiate with groups that want nothing less than the complete destruction of the country and the deaths of as many Jews as possible.  
 
one only has to read the announcements from Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many of the others in the area.  
 
Until the mindset of the fundasmentalists changes, there can never be peace.  
 
Much like the religious warfare that happened between catholics and protestants, Islam is in that position now.  
 
when islamic nations can live together in peace, there may be a chance of peace between islamic nations and the rest of us.

belzebob said "the fact Trump's announcement that the U.S. recognizes this city as Israel's capital has caused this, should come as no surprise.     Israel is trying to negotiate with groups that want nothing less than the complete destruction of the country and the deaths of as many Jews as possible.     one only has to read the announcements from Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many of the others in the area.     Until the mindset of the fundasmentalists changes, there can never be peace.     Much like the religious warfare that happened between catholics and protestants, Islam is in that position now.     when islamic nations can live together in peace, there may be a chance of peace between islamic nations and the rest of us. "

I think this is a pretty silly assessment, and fails to consider the history of the region, and the treatment of Palestinians by Israel and the international community at large. My thoughts are that the poster should take some time out and do some reading about the history of this region, and then consider the larger picture in how it can be resolved fairly to all parties, and especially the parties for which this has been their homeland for thousands of years.  
 
As was already previously acknowledged by "70s guy" the recent post by "don brown" was really great and informed.  
 
In starting this thread I wasn't sure what people's impressions of this situation was. Often people shy away from discussions on these types of topics because for many they are confrontational and emotional. But to my surprise, there were some really great thoughts on this, and I think for most who don't know much about what this is all about, much was learned including myself. Thanks for that.

When I look at the region I often question which is the greater threat, and by that I'm looking at what people say as compared to what people do. There are threats by the groups you mentioned, and there are at times actions, but there is also an expansionist policy by certain Israeli political parties.  
I sometimes believe that we get sidetracked when looking at the problems in the whole Mideast situation, and we try and make it all religious differences, when in reality the main cause goes back to tribal land claims that go back to early AD if not before, and anytime there is outside interference the situation changes for a short period of time, but the struggle to regain territory is never lost.  
Going off topic maybe a bit, but if we were to look at our own country, and decided that the Indeginous people had no right to any land, and tried to take it all away from them, how much conflict would that cause.  
When agreements are made people must stick to them, and when a third party is involved in brokering a deal I believe the responsibility falls on the third party in enforcing compliance with the agreement without bias, I don't think that has really happened when looking at this area.

if history is the only point you want to talk about....  
 
the Jewish people have a much longer history in the region. they were there when the pyramids were built.  
 
the actual name for the West Bank is Judai and samaria.  
 
as in all the region, the current borders were drawn after ww2.  
 
i agree that this needs negotiation, but israel was never under any obligation to give up their capital city.

belzebob said "if history is the only point you want to talk about....     the Jewish people have a much longer history in the region. they were there when the pyramids were built.     the actual name for the West Bank is Judai and samaria.     as in all the region, the current borders were drawn after ww2.     i agree that this needs negotiation, but israel was never under any obligation to give up their capital city. "

"Was never under any obligation to give up their capital city". It's my understanding that Jerusalem was part of Palestine territory in 1948. It was not part of the lands given that was to become a "home nation" for the Jewish people. It was only after the 6 day war that Israel occupied "East Jerusalem" and took control of the city. Jerusalem was declared the "Capitol" of Israel in 1980 by the Knesset, which is the legislative house of Israel. The UN, Arab and much of the civilized world do not view Jerusalem as Israel's capitol and most have their embassies in Tel Aviv. By continually occupying Jerusalem and building Jewish communities on what was Palestine land only fuels tensions and hate from the Arab world towards Israel. The Trump announcement does nothing to further a peace process and only divides the area even more. IMO, a two state is so long overdue and as for Jerusalem, it should belong to neither Israel or Palestine. I would see it more as a UN, demilitarized zone, meaning no Israeli or Arab armed forces within the city and have the UN monitor the DMZ.

there has been no change in the American policy.  
 
the waiver that is signed, puts off the movement of the embassy.  
 
the eastern part is one of the areas of the city that are still under negotiation. there has been no change to the status or management of the temple mount.  
 
the western part of Jerusalem has always been the seat of political power.  
 
the Palestinians never had a chance to have all of Jerusalem.  
 
trump has only ratified previous American position.

another small dip into history will reveal another small fact.  
 
prior to the 67 war, east Jerusalem and the area of the temple mount was under Jordanian control.  
 
since israel and Jordan have a peace treaty that establishes the status of the temple mount.....  
 
any part of Jerusalem is open to negotiation with some future arab state.  
 
there are no pre-conditions.

A good read. If that war did not happen The USA's latest moved could not have happened .  
 
Tel Aviv would still would have to be The USA's embassy home. All Arab countries but especially Egypt brought it on. The straw being the block aid of the Red sea by Egypt. The entire map of the area was changed because the Arabs simply could not do what they wanted. Remove the Jews. The Arabs lost 1/2 of Jerusalem. The Sinai. West bank and Gaza.No matter. Peace talks have brought some back into the Arab fold. No two ways about it 1/2 of Jerusalem will not be traded away.  
 
The Arabs should have left well enough alone in late 66 early 67. This US move will blow over in a period.

Doug said "A good read. If that war did not happen The USA's latest moved could not have happened .     Tel Aviv would still would have to be The USA's embassy home. All Arab countries but especially Egypt brought it on. The straw being the block aid of the Red sea by Egypt. The entire map of the area was changed because the Arabs simply could not do what they wanted. Remove the Jews. The Arabs lost 1/2 of Jerusalem. The Sinai. West bank and Gaza.No matter. Peace talks have brought some back into the Arab fold. No two ways about it 1/2 of Jerusalem will not be traded away.     The Arabs should have left well enough alone in late 66 early 67. This US move will blow over in a period. "

That the 6 day war was a monumental mistake on the Arab states. However, peace was not acheived by the Israelis with the victory. Sometimes after a show of force and having your opponents acknowledge defeat it's best to back off and resume dilomatic discussions, for example when NATO backed off Iraq during "Desert Storm" after reaching Bagdad. Aftetwards, Iraq (Sadam H) behaved itself in the region creating stability. Israel, Gaza and the West Bank has been anytging but stable since 1967. My point being that IMO Israel has neen unwilling to undertake pro-active discussions towards establishing lasting peace within the region and tensions have continued in the region for too long. President Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capitol will do nothing but fuel the tensions and violence further. You say this will blow over? It hasn't blown over since 1967 and this latest announcement is no move towards a peacefull agreement I assure you. Trump had nothing to gain politicaly with this announcement other than satisfying a few infividials political gains thst happenned donate millions to his presidential campaign.

Doug, from the time I read that comment I thought I should reply.  
I hate returning to our neighbor to the South, but their history, is at times the easiest way to make a point.  
The American Civil war, was what I would consider a long time ago, and yet in the next few days there is going to be an election in Alabama that shows that things just don't blow by. One of the candidates stated last week that things have not been good in the US since the time of slavery, and that opinion seems to be supported by a large number of people in that state. No one has suggested returning to slavery but the suggestion of thing not being good since that time does speak volumes to me. Also the is the abortion topic, how many years had it been since the decision of the Supreme Court of United States in the case of Roe vs Wade. To me it seems that some things just don't blow away.  
I was pretty young when I was first told that if I wanted to start a fight just question a persons beliefs, family, or politics. My belief is that there are numerous other thing that get people riled as well, and sometimes those questions of a person opinions leads to much greater problems.

I do not understand what American history and the beliefs of some fundamentalist Christians has to do with the Israeli Palestinian issue.  
 
am I missing something?