Discussions

Believe me, it isn't impossible. To really get to the honest truth a man needs to humble himself greatly for truth to manifest itself. Often the reason why people turn to Christ is because they have exhausted all possible venues for spiritual healing, and in so doing start exploring the only reasonable possibility left and that is the path to Christ.

Christian persecution isn't obvious in Canada or North America. But it could be argued that it's obvious for Christians living in the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia. Thousands are killed each year. Churches are burning, almost daily, and increasingly in Europe.  
 
There's no word, at least no real mainstream word that I'm aware of, that means hatred of Christians/Christianity. Partly because Christianity has been so carelessly criticized to death. But there are words everyone uses to describe those who hate other religions, like anti-Semite or Islamophobe. A person is more likely to get a laugh by saying something anti-Christian. PM Trudeau can wear a cartoon Happy Birthday Jesus sweater and no one cares. Would people care if he wore a shirt mocking another religion during a religious time? (Actually, the media would have his back on that one so it'd go away quickly).  
 
I'm not a Christian apologist and I can understand Nietzsche when he said there's only been on true Christian and he died on a cross. Most people who consider themselves good Christians probably are good people, generally speaking. Same with those of other religions. It's when extremism and brain-washing enters the picture that the religion becomes the opposite of what it's supposed to be. And that behavior needs to be rightfully called out.

Adam, I more then understand your sentiment expressed in your post, but perhaps before I reply, I would ask if you could, if at all possible, provide a bit more insight into what you mean specifically when you say the following,  
 
"I get concerned when I see someone from a specific belief system thats a subset of humanity claiming ownership of the debate to the point of claiming persecution when a decision by the state doesn't go the way they'd envisoned."  
 
and further  
 
"I start to get concerned for this country however at the thought of more aggressive, tension-triggering ways of trying to force one’s own viewpoint or path on another."  
 
Edited by Committed2Brandon, 2019-10-29 16:36:11

Mepataminals, you misquote Traluks when you ask how "giving equal rights to so called "Satan Worshipers" and pagans equated to persecuting Christians?  
 
If you read Traluks post again you will realize that he is not saying giving equal rights to satan worshipers and pagans is persecuting Christians, actually he is saying almost the opposite, in that he is responding to puddlejumper's comments on wanting to see Church's pay their fair share of taxes. Traluk was saying that policy applies equally to Church's as it does to buildings owned by pagan religions and even satanist religions.

Spaghetti Monster You said in your last message that  
 
"When their belief system is inherently divisive I see no reason for respecting it. Rather there are many reasons to bring forth a discussion calling those beliefs into question."  
 
By divisive, do you mean not agreeing with your beliefs? If I disagree with you does that make me divisive? If my position makes you angry does that make it divisive? If that's not what you mean, then what do you mean? Is the judge of what divides you? Is it Justin Trudeau? If not, then who is it?  
 
You then say, "Only when religion, in all its forms, is relegated to the private lives of those who continue to profess belief and is no longer a barrier to our culture will we have finally grownup as a society?"  
 
One could most certainly relegate religion to only the private lives of those who believe it, but I have to ask, how is that any different from what we currently have in our society? Oh wait, sorry, did you actually mean that you don't want religious people to have a say in anything that involves our government? Is that what you actually mean when you talk about relegated religion to only the private lives of those who believe it? Maybe you can clarify that for me too Spaghetti Monster.  
 
Edited by Committed2Brandon, 2019-10-29 16:35:26

..... by divisive I mean the notion of “us” and “them” that is inherent in all religions. The “either you’re with us or you go to hell” in your case. I care little if you agree with my beliefs. My beliefs are my own. The difference is I am more than willing to leave you with your beliefs while your doctrine dictates that you proselytize.  
 
As for relegating religion to the privacy of ones own life. What I mean is that no policy, law, or bylaw should be based on fantasy. There should be no statutory holidays for religious reasons, there should be no restrictions on any of us based on your or any other religion.  
 
Further I believe that forcing your fantastic beliefs on your children should be curtailed. There should be no public moneys invested in religious schools, or if there is then the curriculum should be set by the public school board and not clergy who get their information from a book written by Iron Age people with no understanding of how things work.  
 
I believe that all references to religion in any form should be stricken from our laws and traditions. IE swearing on the bible, the national anthem etc.  
 
Is that plain enough?

Mepetanimals, I want to focus on your particular attack to my original post that  
 
" you can make the argument that christians in general are being persecuted, but you didn't, you jumped straight on abortion and sexual freedoms, which I think tells everyone all they need to know about your motivations, and frankly, if losing your right to impose your will upon other's bodies counts as persecution, then this persecution has been well earned. "  
 
Actually, I never said that Christians in general are being persecuted, but rather that we are starting to see society heading more and more in that direction. Justin Trudeau attempted to keep pro-life Christians (and pro-life members of any religion) from receiving government funds reserved for any organization seeking the funds, through the Canada Student Works Program, as I mentioned in my original post, by requiring participants to sign a declaration that their core mandate agreed with certain leftist principles, including a universal right to abortion.  
 
By excluding anyone who is pro-life from receiving government funds, it was the liberal governments attempt to exclude a group of society from government programs. Thankfully they received great backlash for attempting to push this agenda, but it almost worked, and if it worked there, you better believe the would have continued to attempt to further infringe upon the rights of Christians.

What will it take for us to get to a point where we are happy controlling our own beliefs without feeling the need to control the beliefs of others?

As an example of how far Christian persecution can get, I think a comment on a recent example from the United States is in order.  
 
In the US under ObamaCare, the original documents attempted to force all employers in the United States to pay for artificial contraceptives for their employees. What would that have meant for the United States, that any Christian (or any member of any other religious group who was opposed to artificial contraception) would be left in a great moral quandry of whether or not they should continue to operate business and hire people and thus commit a grave sin in the eyes of their God, or be almost completely shut out from society, including doing business or operating publicly at all.  
 
Thankfully a group of nuns, the Little Sisters of the Poor challenged the legislation and won.  
 
But this is incredibly serious, if the legislation had continued unabated, Catholics and conservative Christians everywhere would have been completely shut out from doing business everywhere. A Catholic in good conscience could never directly pay for another's birth control pill, because they know it is an abortifacient, and therefore a drug that causes the death of children.  
 
Just as in Scorcese "Silence" you see the devil working through the Japanese inquisitors when they do all they can to force the Christians in Japan of that century to submit to their will and abandon their faith, they use incentives, they use their power, and ultimately they use their threats and eventually they used their force.  
 
The beginnings of the persecution has started, whether Christians in our country will stand in great numbers against this impending persecution is yet to be known. But how serious this issue is to our world today cannot be understated, from my perspective there is no greater threat to the makeup of western civilization then this one.

It must be Hallowe'en because some of the opinions expressed in this discussion are downright scary.

Agreed 100%, it’s very sad that people can be so extreme .

Love for Enemies  
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Regardless of your views ,  
Intellect is no substitute for common sense.

Just go back and review the many many posts by this OP, they aren't about debate they are about them telling us how they are right and all others are wrong.  
 
You will find lovely quotes from them such as:  
 
"the Catholic Church was built not as a social institution meant merely to respond to the whims of the times, but as the one true faith created by Jesus himself. The Church cannot change when it comes to strict matters of faith and morals, and that i:ncludes serious issues such as gay marriage, abortion or it's views on contraception."

.... thanks for allowing me my opinion. Lord knows what I would do without your blessing.  
 
Interesting that you view my post as hateful. I thought it was just “matter of fact”  
 
The fact that you can equate my post with Naziism tells me you have no idea what Naziism is or what I was saying so I will dismiss your rebuke as the nonsense it is.  
 
FYI I am not interested in stopping you from celebrating any holiday you want. I just think there should be no requirement of businesses to pay holiday pay based on christian holidays.  
 
Beyond that your post has little to offer in this discussion.  
 
Regards

I feel you hit the nail on the head. The OP Just likes to force her views onto people using his Internet forum. I thought it was about community events and problems not forcing her Christian agenda upon us.

We clearly have a different definition of arrogant.  
 
For instance I think it arrogant to post nonsensical platitudes in response to valid points. Especially when they are platitudes that are blatantly incorrect.  
 
Of course intellect is a good substitute for common sense since so called “common sense” is so uncommon. In fact it is the only substitute. What would you propose as a substitute? The magic 8 ball? Tarot cards?

"Actually, I never said that Christians in general are being persecuted, "  
 
Your very next post:  
 
"As an example of how far Christian persecution can get, I think a comment on a recent example from the United States is in order. ... "  
 
Uh huh.  
 
Moving on from that, the contraceptive mandate just means that contraceptives are i:ncluded in covered items for companies that offer health plans - much like pres:cription medicine/eyecare/etc. Nobody is being forced to hand out condoms like some kind of sexy easter bunny.  
 
More importantly, christians are not being forced into doing anything other than abiding by the same anti-discriminatory laws as everybody else. Losing your freedom to control the lives of others isn't persecution, at this point, it's justice.  
 
Edited by MEPETAMINALS, 2019-10-30 08:44:44

Maybe You should tone it down a little and let people follow their own beliefs, be they right or wrong . Everyone has to try to get along with one another after all. As said earlier I am not religious but there is no need to be so negative and mean, makes you no better than extremists on the other side of the argument. Where’s the middle ground?

Looks like some of the posters are late for school.

"Also, I'm going to have a hard time believing that you are persecuted when for the month and a half following Remembrance Day there are going to be Christmas decorations and music everywhere. One can't go grocery shopping in December without hearing The Little Drummer Boy or about Mary's boy child Jesus Christ... but tell me about Christian persecution"  
 
If you can convince the retail community to stop commercializing Christmas you will do me and many other Christians a huge favour.

"Also, I'm going to have a hard time believing that you are persecuted when for the month and a half following Remembrance Day there are going to be Christmas decorations and music everywhere. One can't go grocery shopping in December without hearing The Little Drummer Boy or about Mary's boy child Jesus Christ... but tell me about Christian persecution"  
 
If you can convince the retail community to stop commercializing Christmas you will do me and many other Christians a huge favour.

I have no control over how you or anyone else “feels” about my posts.  
 
All I can do is be honest about what I am trying to say. If you deem it mean so be it. It matters little to the point at hand.  
 
Of course you would try to equate me with extremists. When there is no actual arguments to bring to bear refuting what I am saying you attack the speaker instead in the hopes of supporting your failing point of view.  
 
Where is the middle ground? At the risk of being labeled a “Nazi” “ Extremist” I will tell you where I think it is.  
 
The middle ground exists in a world where folks can live their lives free of imposition of religious detritus if they choose to. Those who wish to base their life choices on superstition are free to do so but not at the expense of the rest of society and especially those who are deemed unable to properly form an opinion.  
 
That just seems fair to me.  
 
There is no wide spread persecution of christians or any other religion in Canada right now. All that is happening is people are becoming more educated and as a result the supernatural has less of a hold on folks. The more that hold weakens the more people see the repressive nature of religion and the more they want it to end.  
 
The OP is simply proselytizing again. Combining her/his superstition with ridiculous conspiracy theories about the evil “liberals” in the hopes of drumming up support for her/ his outdated, nonsensical notions.  
 
I and others are simply offering another point of view.

Ridiculous conspiracy theories, outdated, non-sensical are words that I wouldn't use in the context of Christianity. Many people turn to Christ out of despair, sadness and depression of their mind and souls. If I could put into words the extreme relief, comfort and trust that turning to Christ has given to many people, I would. Imagine this: A prostitute and drug addict is tired of life. Life has been extremely hard on her and is ready to take her life. She turns to Christ and values her new relationship as something far beyond human understanding. It gave her life, peace love and happiness: something she never had before. Now telling a person that her new relationship with God is nonsensical, outdated etc will have the same effect as a stab in the back. She would rather die a thousand deaths than turn against her saviour..

I don’t really have an opinion either way, I just think that everyone should be a little more tolerant of each other and not fight over it. Seems sad to me.

It’s interesting to me that you have managed to insinuate yourself into a conversation about a topic you “have no opinion” about. You have charged me with being arrogant and have insinuated I am intolerant all over something you do not care enough about to form an opinion.  
 
Curious behaviour.  
 
Sorry but I for one am unwilling to “tolerate” an organization that puts more effort into protecting the world from the scourge of condom use than they do at making sure child rapists get the justice they deserve.  
 
Nor an institution that subjugates women.  
 
Nor an institution that promotes the notion of stoning a woman for the crime of getting raped.  
 
Nor an institution that promotes death for apostasy.  
 
Nor an institution that promotes hatred of sexually divergent people.  
 
I could continue but will assume I have made my position clear enough.  
 
Perhaps, when you manage to form an opinion on any of those issues you will post it here with the same vigour you have posting your opinion of me.  
 
Looking forward to your input, regardless of where your opinions end up.

Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying but I don’t think you are being fair in your judgment to Christianity as an institution..  
You said:  
 
(Nor an institution that subjugates women.)  
 
Which institution is that? I am not sure an institution exists that is more subjugating to women than the progressive left. They condone any new type of sexual pervasive concept that comes along.  
Progressives celebrate when biological males compete in female athletic competitions and literally overpower any biological females competing against them. Note that I put stress on the word ‘biological.’  
Progressive culture generally degrades women who chose to stay home and raise their own kids. Progressives debase the concept of child bearing and nurturing for women when it is possibly the most natural thing for women to do. Study anatomic, physical and physiological characteristics of both sexes and this becomes scientifically evident.  
 
 
(Nor an institution that promotes the notion of stoning a woman for the crime of getting raped. )  
 
Jesus protected a prostitute when the Pharisees tried to stone her, he said “let the person who is without sin cast the first stone,” her accusers all dropped their stones.  
 
 
(Nor an institution that promotes death for apostasy.)  
 
I am not sure which institution that would be. Certainly no hints about that in the New Testament, it may be that you were refereeing to the Koran, not sure..  
 
 
(Nor an institution that promotes hatred of sexually divergent people.)  
 
Christ never promoted hatred, never! He thought us to love those who persecute us. He also thought us that all things should be done in love and that ‘love trumps hate.’  
 
Edited by JeffreyKlamore, 2019-10-30 14:21:07

"Progressives debase the concept of child bearing and nurturing for women when it is possibly the most natural thing for women to do. Study anatomic, physical and physiological characteristics of both sexes and this becomes scientifically evident. "  
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most women aren't huge fans of you telling them what the 'natural' way for them to live is.  
 
Also: "They condone any new type of sexual pervasive concept that comes along. "  
 
Why does every single pro christian comment seem to devolve into moaning about the ways other people have sex? Like of course they condone it, if it's between consenting adults the only opinion that matters is there own. Like, how is sexual freedom harmful to women? I'm honestly confused here. Left or right, women aren't being forced to do anything beyond what they decide for themselves - are you seriously saying you are in a better position to say what they should do?  
 
Edited by MEPETAMINALS, 2019-10-30 14:59:32

Interesting how you just went right on by the part where the church justifies protecting child rapists from prosecution.  
 
Ironically enough, using much the same logic that you ended your post with “ love trumps hate”  
 
Anyway, yes you did misunderstand.  
 
I have said many times that all religions need to be curtailed. To that end I had i:ncluded many religions in the post you responded to. The Catholic Church is guilty of much of what I have posted and more.  
 
Islam is mostly what I was referring to regarding the subjugation of women though I believe the only reason christians in our society are not as extreme is due to our secular “progressive “ laws, not through any reconsideration on their part. They were brought kicking and screaming towards the notion of equality and have a long way to go yet.  
 
Christianity considers sexual divergent people to be sinners “less than” The various factions to varying degrees but it is there, imbedded in their core beliefs . This gives their adherents fodder for their hatred. That is how they support and promote hatred of them.  
 
Anyway — I hope that clears things up and welcome to the conversation.

I guess I skipped that first part because I thought it blatantly obvious that no decent Christian would argue for it. Any church that protects child rapists from prosecution is clearly not a Christian church as defined by what the New Testament defines as Christian.  
 
You said:  
Islam is mostly what I was referring to regarding the subjugation of women though I believe the only reason christians in our society are not as extreme is due to our secular “progressive “ laws, not through any reconsideration on their part. They were brought kicking and screaming towards the notion of equality and have a long way to go yet.  
 
I guess my response and question to that would be: if the notion of equality is possible, how would you define the word equality?  
 
You said:  
Christianity considers sexual divergent people to be sinners “less than” The various factions to varying degrees but it is there, imbedded in their core beliefs . This gives their adherents fodder for their hatred. That is how they support and promote hatred of them.  
 
I said earlier that no decent Christian promotes hatred. It's goes against the very core of anything and everything that Christ thought.