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E-QUAL-I-TY  
 
The state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.  
 
Similar: fairness - justness - equitability - impartiality - even-handedness.  
 
 
 
Regardless of how many times you say it denigration of homosexuality is embedded within the christian doctrine.

So is that the hatred you were applying to Christianity?  
So I am hateful when I disagree with homosexual and other perverse sexual acts?  
 
Edited by JeffreyKlamore, 2019-10-30 17:26:57

I am not going to be suckered into that. These matters are too sensitive to be discussed on a public forum and emotions are too high on all sides. I have a clear conscience in my own beliefs .

I think what bothers me most about this discussion is the grouping together of christians. You do realize not all christians think the same way right? Please don’t ever lump me into any category that thinks abortion isn’t a woman’s choice, that sex before marriage is immoral, that being LGBTQ is wrong, etc etc. I know many Christian’s that have absolutely no problem with any of the issues you seem to be interested in bringing up. Your religion seems to have its own way of thinking but mine doesn’t not and yet we are both christians? You do know there are many different Christian religions right and that wars and actual persecution occurred between these different Christian religions.  
 
Yes I said actual persecution because what you are talking about is not religious persecution. Are you allowed to practice your religion? Go to the church of your choice? Have your own beliefs? Not punished or jailed or murdered for your religious beliefs? Just because the whole country doesn’t think the same way as you does not mean you are being persecuted.  
 
Please stop lumping all christians into one group, if you need to preach your religion than name it accurately, which I’m guessing is catholic since you mentioned them in a post. Though I doubt every catholic has all the same opinions as you either so how about you just express your opinions as just yours and leave it at that.  
 
I’m not going to preach to you so please do not preach to me.

These questions are not aimed at any specific poster but more at, what I would call, the farther ends of both sides of the religious debate.  
 
For those without any religious belief themselves and despite numerous atrocities committed by many religions, can you see that there has been some good come out of organized religions?  
 
For ardent followers of one religion or another, can you see any benefit of a different religions or not following a religion at all?

You talk a lot of common sense and lay it out in simple terms. Thank you.

.....in the right direction..  
 
 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-values-test-immigration-1.5340652

Christ + ian = Christian. To be a Christian you need to be Christlike. Christ is not corruptible. A person who does not follow and believe what Christ thought is not a Christian if you like it or not. Christ was very clear about sins such as murder and sexual pervasiveness etc.

Again with the sex, why does it matter so much to you what other people do? There is nothing anti-christian about non-christians doing things you don't like in a secular nation.  
 
Jesus also supposedly said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  
 
Do you want antithetic dogmatism pushed onto you?  
 
After all it's not the "liberals" who are starting these discussions - western society is just gradually embracing personal freedoms, and it's those like OP who are taking it as an attack. It's frankly tiring.

I am not sure where I pushed my beliefs on anyone, I merely stated what I believe in. I don't believe in force, but I will surely do my best to kindly point out when someone engages in wrong practices. I have had people that have steered me in a better direction because they had the courage to stand up to my false beliefs. They are now my best friends..

"I don't believe in force, but I will surely do my best to kindly point out when someone engages in wrong practices."  
 
Wrong according to you, don't you see how going around with your 'courage' telling people they are wrong is exactly pushing your beliefs upon them?  
 
So where exactly are the 'right' practices coming from? As much as people make fun of Leviticus 19's mixed fabrics rule, a better look at biblical christian 'right' practices is in the very same passage:  
 
"god" to Moses:  
 
If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.  
 
 
But yes, it's left leaning politics that hurt women.  
 
Edited by MEPETAMINALS, 2019-10-31 10:59:03

"Wrong according to you, don't you see how going around with your 'courage' telling people they are wrong is exactly pushing your beliefs upon them? "  
 
In all due respect, I believe you just made the same mistake that you claim I made. You are telling me to listen to your beliefs and yet when I do it's called hateful, pushing etc. Such is human nature I suppose..  
 
"If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven."  
 
I think you might be a little confused as to what a Christian is, and I don't mean this in a hateful way. When Christ came into the world he fulfilled the prophecy of the Old Testament (which you quoted)and made a new covenant, which is forgiveness, repentance and so on. Just a suggestion: maybe you could read Matthew 5 if you want a good start as to what Christianity should look like.  
 
Edited by JeffreyKlamore, 2019-10-31 11:33:33

I have been following this thread closely, and I was not going to post, however I now feel as though I have something worthwhile to contribute so here are my two cents.  
 
First let me begin by saying that I have not viewed the Scorsese film Silence. I am not likely to see it either as it simply does not interest me. However I have some limited knowledge on the topic of the 17th century persecution of Christians in Japan and some of the circumstances that surrounded it and while I have not seen the film, I feel from the OPs post that this event was likely portrayed with little context of the many social, and political circumstances that surrounded it. (Note: Much of this is taken from an essay I wrote a few years ago and in transferring it to here I have simplified it and it is also missing the citations)  
 
During this period of Japanese history, known most commonly as the Edo period, and as the Tokugawa period, Japan was still nominally ruled by the Imperial court, however the real power sat with the Tokugawa Shogunate. This roughly 250 year period was one of relative peace and stability in Japan’s history, it of course ended with the Meiji Restoration.  
 
It is important to note that when we think of classic feudal Japan, Samurai etc. this is the time period we most often are thinking of.  
 
While the Shogunate certainly encouraged foreign trade, they were also very leery of non Japanese. It was during this time period that trade and contact with Europeans was greatly on the rise, and along with European traders (Dutch, Portugese, English etc.) came Christian Missionaries.  
 
The Shogunate feared that Christianity would threaten their grip on power and that Euopean influence would threaten Japanese culture.  
 
Their fears were (in their eyes) confirmed when some of the population who had converted to Christianity began to rebel against the Shogunate. Around the mid 1600’s the Shogunate expelled the Portugese and placed heavy restrictions on other outside nations (including the Chinese) and they instituted a number of edicts. These edicts dictated that all Japanese must be a member of either a Buddhist Temple, or a Shinto Shrine, they also required all people to register with those institutions, make applications to be married or move, as well as a number of other restrictions on citizens. They also made Christianity illegal and completely banned the religion from Japan. By the late 1600s it was almost completely wiped out.  
 
This led to the Shogunate essentially closing the country off from the rest of the world with very few exceptions made for trade purposes.  
 
Yes thousands of Christians (both European and Japanese) were killed during this period. I think that it is important to note that the driving force behind this persecution was not anger or hatred of Christians, but fear of losing the stabilizing force of the Tokugawa Shogunates position of power, and extreme distrust of foreigners.  
 
I think it is also important to recognize that during the same time frame Christian nations were shipping slaves from Africa, and advancing colonial practices around the world. Protestantism arose as did Puritanism and the English Civil Wars occurred, Galileo was tried and convicted of Heresy, and everyone was trying to force their “truth” on everyone else. You may even go so far as to say that the Tokugawa’s fear was justifiable.  
 
Now history and historical context aside, I am sure we can all agree (regardless of religion or lack thereof) that killing is bad, and we should avoid it.  
 
To me it is less “This group is bad because…” or “This group is good because…..” and more of humans have a wonderful talent of mucking things up and an even greater talent for causing one another to suffer.  
 
Now to the original posters position on Christian persecution.  
 
Are Christians around the world persecuted. Yes, as are other faith groups as well.  
 
Are Christians in Canada persecuted, sometimes they are, however not nearly to the extent that they are in other regions. No Christian in Canada has to fear for their life or safety by openly practicing their faith, or walking out their front door.  
 
Having your faith challenged, or your beliefs challenged is not a form of persecution. (I suppose it could be if you were constantly harassed about it, however I find it unlikely to be the case in most instances in Canada).  
 
Now I am not a Christian, however I have no contention with anyone who is. It is a beautiful religion that brings millions of people peace and comfort and I believe that to be a good thing, so please do not take my post as an attack on Christianity as that is not my intention.  
 
I believe that the purpose of religion is to give an individual a set of beliefs that guide their actions toward a peaceful life of servitude to others and helps them to live with a heart of gratitude. A religious practice is meant to be a process of personal development where one strives toward the goal of perfection of character.  
 
Your religion should be about “you” and how “you” interact with others, not about how everyone else must act. It is meant to bring you comfort and peace, not to be used to subject others to your concept of what is “right or wrong”.  
 
It is perfectly fine to share that experience with others who are open to it, but we also have to acknowledge that there will be others who disagree with us and that is ok! We can treat them with compassion and kindness and go our separate ways.  
 
On hot button topics such as abortion, same sex marriage etc, I believe that your religion informs you on how “you” as an individual must approach these topics. So if you are a Christian who believes abortion is wrong, then simply do not have one. If you believe that same sex marriage is wrong then simply don’t marry someone of the same sex as you.  
 
Your religion does not give you permission to force others to live by your rules! Those rules are there just for you, and only you.  
 
But there I go telling you what to do! Being human sure is tricky!

"In all due respect, I believe you just made the same mistake that you claim I made. You are telling me to listen to your beliefs and yet when I do it's called hateful, pushing etc. Such is human nature I suppose.. "  
 
You are the one in a thread claiming christian persecution. You are the one claiming a moral reason to call others wrong. You've got to understand the difference here, you are insinuating yourself into the discussions and lives of people who's choices/nature you disagree with. They on the other hand have forced no viewpoint, they are just living their lives.  
 
That's the difference here, I'm not telling you to change your views, that would be a waste of time. I'm telling you to mind your own business.  
 
And yes, I fully expected the new testament response - but it's really irrelevant. If your god sanctioned that kind of evil garbage, then through an act of human sacrifice claimed it no longer counts, your god is worth less than nothing. And lets be real here, Mathew 5 might be great, but Mathew 25 is right back to throwing slaves away because they don't make you money. (though newer translations call them 'servants')  
 
You pick and choose what parts of the book to believe, I could just as easily find some inapplicable to modern life, bronze age nonsense in the new testament. It's not hard.  
 
I was born and raised Christian, I have ministers in my family. I know what they are about. I also know that the best place to view an abusive relationship is often from the outside.  
 
Edited by MEPETAMINALS, 2019-10-31 11:56:56

"You are the one in a thread claiming christian persecution. You are the one claiming a moral reason to call others wrong. You've got to understand the difference here, you are insinuating yourself into the discussions and lives of people who's choices/nature you disagree with. They on the other hand have forced no viewpoint, they are just living their lives.  
 
That's the difference here, I'm not telling you to change your views, that would be a waste of time. I'm telling you to mind your own business. "  
 
I am really trying to understand the logic of your argument, but your logic just doesn't seem consistent. Maybe to really understand your reasoning better I would have to ask you: What is a moral value to you? Who gave you that definition?  
I think you are intelligent enough to realize that it is impossible to have a debate without sharing viewpoints. Let me reiterate again: when I state my viewpoint I do not force it upon anyone, I simply explain my viewpoint. Explaining my viewpoint is not the same as forcing my viewpoint, please understand that already..  
 
 
"And yes, I fully expected the new testament response - but it's really irrelevant. If your god sanctioned that kind of evil garbage, then through an act of human sacrifice claimed it no longer counts, your god is worth less than nothing. And lets be real here, Mathew 5 might be great, but Mathew 25 is right back to throwing slaves away because they don't make you money. (though newer translations call them 'servants')  
 
You pick and choose what parts of the book to believe, I could just as easily find some inapplicable to modern life, bronze age nonsense in the new testament. It's not hard.  
 
I was born and raised Christian, I have ministers in my family. I know what they are about. I also know that the best place to view an abusive relationship is often from the outside."  
 
I will just say, please show a little respect towards people you disagree with. Insulting and slandering a persons belief system will not channel a discussion in the right direction. I hope I never call your viewpoint "garbage, bronze age non-sense" etc.  
How will we ever get to the truth if we don't show respect and civility towards another human-being we disagree with?  
 
Edited by JeffreyKlamore, 2019-10-31 13:21:06

Your opinion NOT MINE. Please don’t preach to me, not all christians have the same beliefs.