Discussions

Not sure if this has been discussed before but I wonder how EV's will hold up in our winters.  
If I journey into Winnipeg, basically a two hour plus trip, I will not make it home without charging somewhere.  
How long will it take to fully recharge and how many charging points and stations are there likely to be?  
Presumably they will have heated shelter for travellers.  
Bearing in mind that I'm not going to be the only person needing to charge a vehicle, will the charging places be every 20 miles and able to cope with the hundreds of vehicles needing charging.  
If it is minus twenty to thirty, how much battery drain will there be and how much less will I travel whilst trying to keep the interior at a comfortable temperature?  
The internet does not seem to give me any real answers, just manufacturer/government hype.

Well looking at the Chev. Bolt EV range is just over 300km. A standard 110V plug will take 50hrs to charge and a 240v will take 9.5hrs. There are not a lot of charge stations around Winnipeg that offer the 240 charge. I don't think I would trust an all electric to commute to Winnipeg. I would have a gas engine (hybrid) for those commutes.

There are 20 level 2 (240V) stations in Winnipeg and 4 level 3. The level 3 stations will generally give about 300kms in 30 mins (Tesla chargers), but Chevy's website says about 150kms in 30 minutes. Is it mainstream to use an electric for long trips? That depends on your schedule. A quick trip to Wpg for the day probably not. A leisurely trip in for the night? Why not.  
As far as the weather, there are many YouTube videos of these cars used in cold climates and generally you can expect a loss of about 10% on range.  
 
Without the proper infrastructure (charging stations in every town, just like gas station), electric vehicles will remain daily commute drivers, which is what 90% of us use our vehicle for anyways. Average car commutes in Canada in 2016 was 24 minutes, so about 50kms a day, well within the range of all electric vehicles, even in the cold.  
If your a 2 car family (most are), have a full electric and a hybrid. Best of both worlds.  
 
Marpet

Just like an old classic or a high performance sports car, electric vehicles in the northern prairies of North America are just summer cars. Simply said, any of these vehicles are fighting against the laws of physics. There's a reason we don't see many Corvettes roaring around in January or that we're not finding many fifty-year-old sedans going down Victoria Avenue after a snowstorm... They just can't handle the conditions. Sure, we see the odd 'vette when there's still snow on the ground, but the streets are usually dry. And I still see that one old guy driving that '67 Dodge Polara all year long, but that's far from "the norm". It doesn't take a degree in electrical engineering to understand that electricity behaves differently at certain temperatures. Batteries and motors work harder in the cold. Sometimes, engineers can design with these factors in mind with different materials and techniques to improve efficiency. ...But they will still have their limits. Sorry to say this, but that EV will be sitting between that motorcycle and your snowmobile in the garage, and get defined as a seasonal vehicle here in Manitoba. We're a good generation away before they will evolve to be an All Purpose vehicle out here. Right now the technology is unproven, the infrastructure isn't readily available and the true incentives to own one don't exist. At this point in time, they are the "brick cell phones" of cars. ...a toy and status symbol for those who can afford it.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Well, that certainly is an opinion. One not backed up by any sort of evidence at all.  
 
Do electric cars lose range in cold weather? Yes. So do gas cars.  
 
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/electric-cars-cold-weather-temperatures  
 
On the plus side, in -45C weather, an electric vehicle starts, every time.  
 
Marpet

Marpet said "Well, that certainly is an opinion. One not backed up by any sort of evidence at all.     Do electric cars lose range in cold weather? Yes. So do gas cars.     https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/electric-cars-cold-weather-temperatures     On the plus side, in -45C weather, an electric vehicle starts, every time.     Marpet "

I work at a car dealership. I will not mention which one or the make we sell. Just before Thanksgiving weekend when it was -10 or so outside, at 7:50am, I warmed up one of our new hybrid vehicles which was on EV mode. I had the heat cranked on it with the front and back defrost on. 15 minutes later, I went to the vehicle. Half the frost was still on the both the front and back windshield. The interior of the vehicle was barely lukewarm.  
 
Now, if was actually Winter. I would say there's some problems with hybrids and electric vehicles. Until they can get 1,500km range when its -40C, they are not practical in our Winters, probably not as bad in Vancouver or on Vancouver Island. That's reality.

unbreakable1 said "    Marpet said "Well, that certainly is an opinion. One not backed up by any sort of evidence at all.     Do electric cars lose range in cold weather? Yes. So do gas cars.     https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/electric-cars-cold-weather-temperatures     On the plus side, in -45C weather, an electric vehicle starts, every time.     Marpet " I work at a car dealership. I will not mention which one or the make we sell. Just before Thanksgiving weekend when it was -10 or so outside, at 7:50am, I warmed up one of our new hybrid vehicles which was on EV mode. I had the heat cranked on it with the front and back defrost on. 15 minutes later, I went to the vehicle. Half the frost was still on the both the front and back windshield. The interior of the vehicle was barely lukewarm.     Now, if was actually Winter. I would say there's some problems with hybrids and electric vehicles. Until they can get 1,500km range when its -40C, they are not practical in our Winters, probably not as bad in Vancouver or on Vancouver Island. That's reality. "

So the manufacturer has a poor design in heating the vehicle, that doesn't mean that they are all poor or that it is a problem that can't be fixed. The vehicle's seem to work fine in the Nordic countries of Europe and their winters can be just as harsh. 37% of vehicles sold on Norway were electric.  
 
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/countries-leading-the-adoption-of-electric-vehicles-chart-2018-3/  
 
Why would a vehicle need to do 1500kms? how many times a month do you put 1500kms on your vehicle (on one tank of gas mind you)? Maybe the reality of the situation is that we need to rethink how we use our vehicles. For the vast majority of our daily use, an electric would suffice.  
I, for one, don't see a future without a gas component (e.g. - for your 1500 km trips) but if I'm only doing that once a year (maybe) then I can rent and still save money.  
 
Our assumptions need to change.  
 
Marpet

unbreakable1 said "    Marpet said "Well, that certainly is an opinion. One not backed up by any sort of evidence at all.     Do electric cars lose range in cold weather? Yes. So do gas cars.     https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/electric-cars-cold-weather-temperatures     On the plus side, in -45C weather, an electric vehicle starts, every time.     Marpet " I work at a car dealership. I will not mention which one or the make we sell. Just before Thanksgiving weekend when it was -10 or so outside, at 7:50am, I warmed up one of our new hybrid vehicles which was on EV mode. I had the heat cranked on it with the front and back defrost on. 15 minutes later, I went to the vehicle. Half the frost was still on the both the front and back windshield. The interior of the vehicle was barely lukewarm.     Now, if was actually Winter. I would say there's some problems with hybrids and electric vehicles. Until they can get 1,500km range when its -40C, they are not practical in our Winters, probably not as bad in Vancouver or on Vancouver Island. That's reality. "

I own a plug-in hybrid. It has a 2 litre engine as well as a smaller battery that will give me about 45km in summer and half that in winter. Winter is worse because the battery uses up a lot of energy heating itself and heating up the car interior.  
 
It also has a feature that should be common in ALL electric vehicles - when plugged in, it will use that electricity to warm up or cool off the vehicle depending on the season. I can even program it with set times that I plan on getting into the car so that it's ready for me. Then, I start off with a full battery and a pre-heated or cooled car.  
 
I've had this car for 10 months and have put on about 12,000km. My average fuel consumption over that whole time is 3.9 l/100km. Almost all city driving is electric and highway is gas.  
 
Oh... my hydro has only gone up about $25 per month.

OK, just a bit of fact checking, the lowest temperature this year in Oslo (the capital)was minus 8c, this in the South of the country, up North in Tromso the lowest was minus 10, hardly Manitoba weather.  
In 2016 there were 1996 charging points in Oslo (pop about 5.5 million) and a countrywide total of 7632.  
Of the supercharging stations the time varied between 30 -100 minutes depending on percentage.  
I would like to see figures for an actual test run on a minus 30c day with the vehicle interior kept at around 65-70F, mileage and recharging time. Presumably they exist somewhere?  
EV's may work well somewhere like Vancouver but not sure I would trust one Manitoba.

Sorry edit to my previous post, the total population of Norway is 5.5 million, Oslo comes in at about 650,000 (about as big as Winnipeg).

Read JR's post. He owned an electric car last winter. It ran fine. When charging at night, the battery is warmed and the car can be conditioned by the grid. He can programme it. The post above yours answers your questions.  
One would expect range to be effected, but for daily commutes, they are more reliable than gas (at least they start).  
 
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/01/02/electric-car-range-affected-extreme-cold-they-start/amp/  
 
Marpet

Roros, Norway has seen temperatures of -50C and Tynset has an average of -13C in January.  
Brandon's average daytime temperature in January in -12C.  
Seems like it gets pretty cold in Norway too.  
 
Marpet

Because the car battery cools down in cold, it cannot output as much power as it could in the summer, therefore the range drops (people report as much as 40-50% in extreme cold). But if you drive a long distance non-stop, e.g. to Winnipeg, then the battery should warm up and increase the range. Pre-heating the car helps a lot too.  
 
There is a video blogger on YouTube, Tesla Bjorn from Norway. He owns a Tesla, but he's also testing different electric cars. He has many videos about winter driving, e.g.  
 
 
You could also find lots of forum discussion by electric car owners (mostly about Tesla cars, because they have the longest range among electric vehicles and a really good thermal battery management).  
 
E.g.:  
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/no-garage-for-my-tesla-in-canadian-winter.86920/  
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7ngdxr/tesla_in_the_canadian_cold/  
 
There are some great youtube videos as well. Such as by a family from Alberta:  
 
 
As far as I know, there is a network of fast chargers for Tesla cars, called superchargers, and you could find a map of them for USA and Canada  
https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/supercharger .  
Seems they plan to build superchargers along the Trans-Canada, inducing Brandon, Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg.  
There was a plan to build a number of fast chargers (non-Tesla) to connect Winnipeg and Toronto.  
 
https://www.plugshare.com/  
is a great website to check charging stations in your area or on your route.  
 
I think that owning an electric vehicle, especially in cold regions like Manitoba, requires planning and understanding of the limitations. It's not yet for everyone. I'd love to own one, though.

There is an informative video by Rich Rebuild (a youtube blogger who repairs old Teslas himself) about his first winter:  

Thanks for the links, have not looked at the videos, seems about an hours viewing which would kill my sat download allowance.  
Looked at the charging location site, seems there are only 3 in Brandon and nothing between Brandon and Headingly, although the data is probably out of date.  
Does anyone have an idea of the cost of the charging where it is not done at home?

Vegimite, you're welcome.  
As for the chargers in Brandon, there is one more at the RAM dealership on Victora Avenue (West), although I don't know who and when is allowed to use it.  
Most of the car charging is supposed to be done at home with a level 2 charger. Level 1 is the basic 120V, and level 2 is 220V (the same as for a drier). If you live in an apartment building, then it might be a potential problem, because the landlord might not allow installation of the chargers.  
Public chargers are meant for charging on the go, when you're travelling.

...level 2 charger behind the Shoppers mall near the North West entrance. To my knowledge it's free, as I haven't seen any form of payment on the box.  
 
Marpet

as to the cost of a replacement battery for an electric vehicle? Anyone know & how long they last?

Marpet said "...level 2 charger behind the Shoppers mall near the North West entrance. To my knowledge it's free, as I haven't seen any form of payment on the box.     Marpet "

Shhhh.... it's a secret! Better than handicap parking!

MDG said "as to the cost of a replacement battery for an electric vehicle? Anyone know & how long they last? "

...but have heard figures as high as $10K. That would need to be verified and may not be acurate.  
 
The Hyundai Ioniq has an 8 year extended warranty and the Nissan Leaf has a 5 year/ 100K warranty should the battery fall below 4 bars. It also has an 8 year complete battery failure warranty. Chevy Bolt is 8 years/100K if the battery drops 40% capacity. Tesla model 3 is 8 years/100K with 30% battery degredation.  
 
Tesla quotes $150/kwh for battery replacement.  
Chevy - $262/kwh  
Leaf - $5500 plus 3 hours labour  
 
Most people wont keep their cars for 8 full years and most batteries will last the full eight years. After all, their are not going to warranty something that they know for certain that it will need to be replaced.  
 
Marpet

1. Initial cost of electric cars much higher than petrol powered  
2. The batteries after 5-6 years are very costly to replace.  
3. Now this car is worthless, no one will buy a used car with the need for new batteries. -landfill material !!  
3. If for whatever reason they become completely discharged, they will freeze just like any other and become garbage.  
4. Good only for short commute, forget WPG trip  
5. Cär not " green " Lithium batt. production very enviro unfriendly  
6. Hybred better bet, but the above negatives still apply  
7. Gm trying to for electric and autonomy cars . a deal breaker for me  
not interested- don';t even get me started on that discussion !!!

You spend 40-50 grand on a EV vehicle only to need another 10 grand to replace batteries ever 5-6 years? Resale at a later date will be the shits as who wants to buy a vehicle then pump in another 10 grand to replace batteries. The same car in gas is basically half the price. The price difference alone if budgeting $250 a month for city commuting would get about 7 years of fuel paid for alone. Where is the incentive to go green? I didn't want to hijack the Yellow Vest thread and am writing up to post about carbon tax. We have to admit that full EV cars are best served for short distances. I doubt I would trust a trip to Clear Lake and back. With a push for going green why not let electric carts on the streets? Golf/utility carts are limited to go 30 km/hr. It would take me 2-3 minutes longer to get to work. Brand new carts are 10 grand. Used is half that. I would rather jump in my EV cart and whip to Sobeys than firing up my truck. They still range around 65 km on a charge. Nothing wrong with that as a daily commuter.

We have had a Hyundai Sonata hybrid (gas/electric) for 5 years now and haven't had a moments trouble with it-highly recommend. Like you, we are just a tad leery of going whole hog electric in our climate, etc. But have driven through the mountains and all over in Canada in the hybrid and it is great! About 60/65 mpg.

so how does this become a better carbon footprint. aside from the higher overall price it seems to me the replacement issues would negate any saving on reduced gas/diesel consumption. why do no green promoters offer an accurate carbon cost for their green alternatives and compare them to what they say needs to be replaced. I think you may discover the actual carbon footprint for the green replacements may be even higher.

It's long been my opinion (so not a fact as far as I know) that some of the so-called "green alternatives" may have a larger carbon footprint than existing, older technology. I believe that, especially when talking battery technology. From birth to end of use along with disposal that the footprint left behind will be greater than earlier technology.  
 
It's not something I've been able to find a lot of info on, especially the footprint created during the raw material gathering and manufacturing processes.

I don't have the site I was on but was looking up about Winnipeg converting to electric buses. From start to finish the ev vehicle has a higher carbon footprint. What the green people hope to achieve is that the electricity that charges these vehicles comes from a green source such as solar/hydro/wind generators.

currently are suited to short distance, point to point travel. To and from work in the city for example. You definitely won't be taking a long distance, cross country trip in them. In this case a conventional fuel vehicles will win out over EV's. Since to refuel will take 5-10 min depending on the tank and your off again. Maybe down the road EV's will reach that recharge times.  
 
As for battery replacement, I've watched YouTube videos of people buying aftermarket batteries and replace it themselves. And the cost savings were quite big, when your saving dealership hourly rates The process is a bit involved to get to the battery cells. Most of the time was removing interior panels and removing brackets. But once the battery was out, it was easier to replace the battery cells. The old battery cells can be sent back to be refurbished and eventually reused. So they are not sent to the landfills. They might get to where you get the core charges back when you return the battery to the point of sale.  
 
On a an older modern conventional vehicle, if you have to start doing engine work, you might be approaching the dealer costs to replace the battery in a Hybrid/EV. You can look at it as the cost of owning an older vehicle as things start to be needing replacement. I think if you can get 10 years out of a battery, your doing good. As long as the rest of the vehicle is in good shape, it would be worth replacing the battery. Also with and EV, there are many other maintenance cost that are eliminated. Oil changes, coolant flushes, spark plug replacement and anything else that can need replacement on a conventional fuel vehicles. If you have a head gasket, timing belt/chain, or some other major internal engine component fail, you also looking at major costs. An EV won't have any of those issues.  
 
The other benefit to having an EV, is that you won't care what the gas price is, or that it took a 15 cent jump overnight. You can just drive on by.  
 
EV's might not have the range and convenience of conventional vehicles right now, but technology continues to improve.

We've had our fully electric EV for over a year now and though it has one of the smaller batteries on the market at 24kwh, we've put over 30,000 on it since we first got it (about 14.5 months of use).  
 
Ours kids also talk very enthusiastically about it and it's nice to know the electricity being used is from a renewable source with Hydro.  
 
A comment above from a dealership regarding the pre-warming of a car. When we plug into our level 2 charger, the car gets very toasty. If you're only using the Level 1 plugin charger (standard house outlet), it will not heat up that much.  
 
One very nice thing about electric cars is it can be -35 out and it will still start presto: no need to worry about a block heater.