Discussions

Everyone seems to think electric cars are the "clean alternative", but has anyone ever looked at the lithium mining process, and what the mine sites look like?  
Also the batteries don't last forever. just like a regular car battery you can expect a 5+/- year battery life. For the cost of those batteries you could buy a decent used car.  
I am not sure how MPI will deal with accidents, but I know south of the border insurance companies left the vehicle owner responsible for environmental clean up costs if in a collision there was damage to batteries and a spill occurred.  
All something to think about before jumping into an "environmentally sound" electric car

You can charge an electric vehicle at home from your 110v socket with a level 1 charger overnight.Hybrid vehicles and equipment have huge and current potential and good range but also still too expensive.  
Older and more affordable technologies that reduce emissions are lean burn, hydrogen fuel cells and current engines can be converted easily to run on hydrogen or natural gas. Not perfect but they all could reduce overall emissions now. They are older technologies that could have been adopted by manufacturers and government legislation many years ago but for some reason it never happened, probably due to the strangle hold that oil companies have on politics. Electric is coming , Harley Davidson are now producing the first electric motorcycle from a mainstream volume manufacturer, however the electricity still has to be generated and distributed for charging and electric vehicles have a large manufacturing and afterlife environmental footprint.  
Right now if you have a good clean running vehicle the best thing that you can do is maintain it properly( most of the big dealerships do a poor job) and keep it running as long as possible therefore reducing the environmental damage caused by manufacturing. Bottom line is that we buy too many new vehicles.  
I am a fully qualified mechanic and auto electrician with 28 years in the industry so I understand some of these technologies. No I am not looking for work!  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2019-11-07 08:56:24

One advantage of electric vehicles is that using less moving parts in the drive train the vehicle in theory should last longer and cover more miles during its life, the disadvantage though is initial cost and the cost of replacement batteries plus they are difficult to recycle or dispose of safely. That said I wouldn’t mind that electric Harley Davison for my warm weather commute. $37250 is out of my price range though!

OK, so I understand the thinking behind EV's but when we have all converted (if ever) what is the government going to do to replace all the gas/petrol tax that is raised currently.  
The chargers are free at present but what will the recharge cost be once more folks are onboard.? The cost of installation has to be paid for somehow, they need to be profitable when all is said and done.  
When it is minus 30 with a windchill of minus 40 I sure don't want to be sat in my vehicle at 3am waiting for it to charge. Let alone stuck on a closed highway for 24 hours or more.  
The EV site for locations does not seem to show any charging costs, could someone please tell us the current cost. Also what the projected cost is likely to be when we have no alternative and the power companies have the monopoly on prices.  
Just a few thoughts and questions.

Thankyou much FarmerGeorge for your (new to me) informational knowledge, very helpful.  
Researching EV, found there simply wasn't enuff pros vs the cons and now more cons.  
Yes, the batteries are pricey, which was a big con to me.  
Rule of thumb to me with any big ticketed items, as always been PROs vs CONs

Yes, they can be charged at home. You can use either a 110 & a 220 v plug. Of course, the 220 v plug will do it a lot faster and I'm sure you could install other options that will speed it up even more. If you own a house, there is no need to use public charging options for normal in city driving, as you can charge it overnight. If you go on bigger trips those chargers will come in handy. The ones at Petro Canada aren't at an ideal location. You could stop for food at Humpty's or Petro a meal or refreshments but thats it. Tesla has theirs in the corral center where people could have a few more options to spend a half-hour. As more people get them shopping centers will start using them because combining charging with shopping at places where everyone spends at least half an hour is gonna make it easier.  
 
At this point, I would not recommend buying a new gas vehicle. My guess is in 10 years there will no longer be any small gas vehicles sold. Gas vehicles will have a very fast depreciation in the years to come. Buy used until you are satisfied with the electric options coming out, then upgrade. there are a lot of options in coming in the next few years.

can be be recycled. And the lithium can be reused in new cells. Just need more of these recycling facilities built.  
 
It's a new industry that will make new jobs, new businesses.  
 
When internal combustion engines first came out, they were ineffiecient, unreliable, very few places to refuel. But as they developed, they got better. The same with electric vehicles.  
 
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/recycling_batteries  
 
https://youtu.be/wxCFDWMPu38  
 
Edited by Trevor B, 2019-11-07 09:58:36

My biggest concern about EV's is their long term reliability in our harsh climate. I want to see what cost of ownership will look like on a 10-15 year old EV with 200,000 kms.  
 
Once that is known, demand may increase which will lower production costs and increase reliability and build quality.  
 
I would also like more honest disclosure from manufacturers regarding overall environmental impact rather than just actual per mile driven cost. Lithium mining has been cited. I look to wind power as a source for my skepticism now that we are seeing the cost of putting old turbine blades into landfills as they have a predicted shelf life and currently cannot be recycled.

Are all valid points. It still does not account for where the required generating capacity to supply the additional electricity demand will come from though! Will be huge new electricity requirements which can realistically only be achieved with a technology that is unpalatable to most of us (nuclear). Also this does not account for one of the largest polluters which is manufacturing.  
As an aside the United Nations has just told Asia to kick it’s coal addiction. Apparently many Asian countries have huge coal fired power stations with plans to build many more. Source BBC world news. Not really what we need to hear. I do feel that we have to reduce pollution and emissions, it just makes sense. Apparently other counties disagree even though they will most likely be the most affected by climate change be it natural or human caused.

difference between mining lithium and any other resource?  
 
The meme that's making it's rounds showing a "lithium mine" vs an oil drilling rig is very inaccurate. The open pit mine that's shown is actually a copper mine in Chile. An open pit mine like what used for others like gold, diamond, iron, coal, oilsand, etc..  
 
For the record, most lithium is in a brine underground. And is extracted by pumping it to the surface into ponds, and letting the Sun evaporate the water. The remaining lithium is then collected. The same process as salt.  
 
Early gasoline powered vehicles were also not very good in our harsh climate. Just think of driving a Ford Model T in our winter. At least EV's are more advanced than the Model T's in terms of comfort.  
 
Do you also demand honest disclosure for the environmental impact of gasoline powered vehicles?

Perhaps I should have said lithium battery production instead of lithium mining.  
https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/lithium-batteries-dirty-secret-manufacturing-them-leaves-massive-carbon  
 
Yes, I would like honest disclosure from all areas including EV makers.  
 
I think I acknowledged that EV's will improve in time, just as the gas powered vehicle did. The difference is that early cars were trying to replace the horse and buggy while EV's are working to replace well functioning and reliable vehicles. Not a fair comparison.  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2019-11-07 11:15:54

This is an exciting topic, and this is one of the reasons.  
 
In the hot summer months, I became interested in the duck curve. It's mostly a combination of 2 problems.  
 
1.) Even though solar in many places is now efficiently handling a majority of daytime demand, your typical old-style power generation stations can't be fully shut down and restarted at a moment's notice. Thus some solar at times has to be disconnected to not overwhelm the grid.  
 
2.) When the sun goes down, the demand curve is still high, meaning that generation capacity has to fairly quickly jump in order not to have northeast 2003 all over again.  
 
The northeast blackout was interesting to me because it has all 3 heavy users online at once (commercial, industrial, residential) plus Air conditioning. Mass EV deployment potentially adds a whole new variable to the mix. And may well push the high demand curve later into the night (even without A/C) than in previous years.  
 
On the other hand, however, I am not all that worried about this. Because once a battery technology is found that has more lifespan than the 15 years (or so) that lithium-ion can provide (and the price is low enough, of course), this can be used both in EV technologies AND added to power grids. At first, in order to utilize what electrons are being thrown away. And eventually to scrap industrial-sized power plants altogether.  
 
Whilst I don't see the giant macro grids of today going away, I do see the potential for broken up hybrid grids.  
Huge grids are efficient, but not resilient. Adding storage can easily square this circle.  
 
Natural gas peaker plants are already not being funded by many lenders, as they have come to be viewed as Stranded Assets.  
 
Stranded Assets.  
Whilst not exactly the topic of this conversation, it's a topic that many people in this nation ought to look up. Because when you take it into account, the seemingly asinine moves of many big-time energy lenders starts to make logical sense.

the process to recycle and reuse the lithium from batteries becomes more mainstream, the impact will just get less and less. Yet the precess to refine crude oil into fuel is still worse.  
 
Lithium is also a natually formed element, Li on the periodic table. Number 3 behind Hydrogen and Helium. Formed in the creation of the Universe.  
 
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/vehicles/how-green-are-automotive-lithium-ion-batteries.htm

I don’t think that anyone should buy any vehicle hoping for good resale value though. All vehicles and equipment are terrible financial investments. It is much better to aim for vehicle longevity. At least 10 year lifespan ( or longer) or financially it just doesn’t pencil out.

I'm sure companies and governments will try to find a way to make money off of them eventually.  
 
As for power required, can't be anymore than what's needed to process crude oil into fuel at refineries. I would imagine they would require vast amounts of electricity just to operate. If they loose electrical power they can't refine crude oil either.

Current electrical supply grids cannot support more than two or three electric cars per block.  
Many older homes can’t support an electric car.  
The costs to upgrade grids and homes is far far greater than taxpayers are willing to give.  
My prediction is that it’ll be at least 50 years before electric cars are really feasible for the masses.

Do you have any sort of evidence to back that up? Or is that fear mongering? A quick google search gives me the average kWh for electric cars is 30 for 100 miles 160 km. For arguments sake let’s say we have 3 cars doing the full 160km. Do you really think a one block grid only has 90kwh to spare? Further to charge that 30kwh over 10 hours is only 3kwh per hour. Or in other words less than a construction heater. Any house should be able to accommodate that. Now consider that most people in Brandon commute in Brandon at less than 40km a day and demands become less. That being said if every car on the road was electric the grid would need some upgrades. But to say the limit is 2-3 cars per block is nonsense.

no thought of yet...so were does one park their vehicle if they do not have a parking space? or a back lane? Many homes and apartments don't have parking or only one space. Many homes in cities have parking only on streets. Who is to stop anyone from just pulling up and plugging in to your supply? The cost of rent would likely go up 25% to cover costs. People are having a tough time now trying to pay their hydro bills now. What if your travelling and get trapped due to a closed highway..happens all the time in Manitoba alone. And someone mentioned the environmental aspect of clean up after an accident would be through the roof. What would MPI cover and what kind of insurance would and cost would it take to own one? Im guessing not a good choice for many of us poor people. Just my opinion like it or not.

If you have an electric car you won’t have to pay for gas anymore. Electric cars are way cheaper to run. Plus no oil changes. Parking spots is a problem. Need some cleanup data. Is a lithium battery any worse than gasoline and oil spill wise?

The chemical release from a large bank of batteries is likely worse and with so much voltage involved quite dangerous in an accident. There have been instances of the odd Tesla going live, ie electric current all over the car like lightning. Teething troubles I am sure but makes you think all the same. I hope that they do figure it all out. One point that I read by a Tesla owner is that when you charge your vehicle overnight at home it is always full when you leave so no panic to “fuel up” before you set out. There is lots of work to refine Evs though. There are other technologies out there that could have been adopted years ago with potential to be highly efficient. Suddenly evs are the only answer? The power still has to be generated and distributed with a straight electric vehicle.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2019-11-07 17:26:30

I think this article sums up a lot of the problems, maybe when the battery technology is better the vehicles may become more commonplace.  
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50004184

That was a great article ,thank you, and from the BBC you know it is accurate. Dyson is one of the brightest people on the planet. If he can’t make an electric vehicle commercially viable then there is a problem. I still waaant that Harley Davidson Livewire though, coolest bike on the planet and I am a self confessed petrol head. If they could just sell it for a realistic commuter bike price.

I don’t think anyone realistically thought Dyson would come up with a car. Guessing the car part was the bigger problem. I really can’t find anything on toxicity of lithium batteries. Some off gassing. But in an accident I am not seeing where the big toxic problem is.

Lets presume that the range of an EV is 300 km. You aren't going to go the full 300 km before a recharge, so you stop at 250 km. Now it is going to take about 30 minutes to recharge your EV. What if there is a line up at the charging station of 3 EVs per station? Now you have to wait about 1.5 hours to charge your EV, and wait 30 minutes for it to charge.  
 
EVs make sense in cities, but not on the highways for any distance. Besides, gasoline/diesel vehicles get better fuel economy on the highway than in cities. Just my opinion.

There are a lot of people in cities who live in condos, blocks, rooms who have vehicles but no access to parking other than in a street,  
Now some towns in UK and elsewhere are proposing putting charging points on lamp standards, which presumably mean you need to carry your own lead to plug in. Not sure how they are going to be charged for usage, technology app I assume.  
Some of us do not own 'phones so apps are not always viable.  
Then of course you have the morons who are going to run around disconnecting the chargers and even stealing or damaging the connectors. It will happen, vehicles stolen to order now the batteries are so expensive. The UK is seeing a spate of catalytic converters being stolen from parked vehicles as the rare metals inside are worth money in scrap yards.  
Also the wheels are going to be very valuable because they now contain the motors and a lot of copper wiring.  
Zacht's comment above is only the tip of an iceberg, most gas bars frequently have queues of vehicles most times of day, so that couple of hours wait is going to be much longer.  
I can envisage folks just disconnecting chargers for the heck of it even in places like the Corral centre, hopefully they will put security cameras about but then you have to have employees to monitor so will they forgo them on cost grounds.  
Lots of things to reckoned with, the price of the vehicles not being the least of the problems.

Have you ever seen a battery explode? I have right next to me . Admittedly it was a lead acid battery. It went off like a shotgun, acid and pieces everywhere. It took one spark from a colleague welding too close to a charging vehicle battery. Of course it was a situation that should never have happened. I don’t know if a bank of lithium batteries could react in the same way in an accident if they were compromised but I don’t want it to happen to anyone. The technology is cool though.  
Dyson did have prototype cars running so he came very close, was just the economics didn’t work  
It won’t go mainstream until the marketplace says so and that means we will have to pay and it won’t be much cheaper if at all than a regular vehicle. This is not a case for subsidies or tax breaks (they always are temporary). Manufacturers will not produce an electric vehicle long term if it doesn’t turn a profit. ( Maybe it will in time).  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2019-11-07 20:20:54

I have seen a battery self destruct. Not exactly explode. Exploding does not equal toxic. My guess is lithium battery is less toxic than lead.

Interesting article.  
https://www.livescience.com/62179-tesla-fire-cleanup-danger.html

anyone using gas has to pay for their fuel  
 
Why not electric cars pay for electricity?  
 
They should pay for it.  
 
Plus I don't like how they are given parking spots close to stores like home depot.  
 
if you can have an electric car you should be able to walk to the store!  
 
if they get their power free, someone will end up paying and it will be the taxpayers or other customers of these companies that will end up paying.  
 
Why should I have to pay for someone else travel?