Discussions

Home
Discussions
Automotive
UK police EV's

UK police EV's

vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

UK police EV's
7/6/2022 at 12:17 PM

Interesting reading from the BBC regarding Police problems with EV range.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-62049834
ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

Problem doesn't seem
7/6/2022 at 1:25 PM

to be that of range, but of finding a place to charge. ICE would have similar problems, I suspect, if gas pumps were located only where the charging stations are.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

EVs
7/6/2022 at 6:24 PM

Definitely the odd cherry-picked story out there trying to paint EVs in a lesser light as we go through the inevitable shift in how vehicles are powered that our planet will thank us for.
Sounds to me like they need a better plan if they aren’t able to make the ~400km in a charge work for a day, worst-case scenario with a top-up at a charger in between on similar intervals to when they’d go to a gas station in good old fashioned fossil fuel burners. Beauty is that if there’s a charger at the police station, all vehicles start the day at 100% without any kind of end of day gas station run!
hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

...
7/6/2022 at 7:59 PM

Adam said "
Definitely the odd cherry-picked story out there trying to paint EVs in a lesser light as we go through the inevitable shift in how vehicles are powered that our planet will thank us for.
Sounds to me like they need a better plan if they aren’t able to make the ~400km in a charge work for a day, worst-case scenario with a top-up at a charger in between on similar intervals to when they’d go to a gas station in good old fashioned fossil fuel burners. Beauty is that if there’s a charger at the police station, all vehicles start the day at 100% without any kind of end of day gas station run!
"
I googled Gloucestershire Constabulary Ev's and it turns out they run nissan leafs and e-nv200's, getting 150 and 125km ranges respectively, so not hard to understand them experiencing range anxieties.

The article claims they have ranges around 200 miles but any google searches seem to have those vehicles in the 125-150 range, maybe its a city/highway thing ?

I recently saw ford released an EV fullsize transit van, I thought that was kind of cool until I read its $60k and has a realistic range of 126 miles empty or 100 miles if it has 2k pounds max loaded, meaning it couldn't even drive from brandon to dauphin on a full charge lol
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

EV
7/6/2022 at 10:12 PM

hutchster said "I googled Gloucestershire Constabulary Ev's and it turns out they run nissan leafs and e-nv200's, getting 150 and 125km ranges respectively, so not hard to understand them experiencing range anxieties.

The article claims they have ranges around 200 miles but any google searches seem to have those vehicles in the 125-150 range, maybe its a city/highway thing ?

I recently saw ford released an EV fullsize transit van, I thought that was kind of cool until I read its $60k and has a realistic range of 126 miles empty or 100 miles if it has 2k pounds max loaded, meaning it couldn't even drive from brandon to dauphin on a full charge lol "
Leafs definitely aren’t the gold standard for the modern EV.

If you’re going to pick Ford, i don’t know anything about van you’re talking about but it would make sense to look at their newer mainstream consumer vehicles just to get a sense for where the tech is at. One of the more popular new models, the Ford Mustang EV, tested by a 3rd party at 459km for the extended range version and 340km for the standard version.
https://insideevs.com/reviews/520484/mustang-mach-e-range-test/amp/

F-150 lightning tested at over 400km:
https://insideevs.com/news/591589/ford-f150-lightning-70mph-range/amp/

Assume some degradation in that range during the winter in this climate but nowhere near enough to make impractical as a daily driver (and you’ll still get to Dauphin with plenty of juice ).
The cost talking point is slowly whittling away. With the gov credit a person can get one of the new Chev Bolt EUVs for sub-40k. Does 0-60 in 6.8 sec to boot.
For commercial, someone that knows more might need to add more but I think focus is on last mile delivery. This Canadian co that Amazon has an interest in makes Series 6 and 8 trucks rated at 200 miles (so 300+km): https://thelionelectric.com/
Biggest thing is that the industry is evolving fast, and todays cherry picked talking points are already tomorrows old news. It’ll be exciting to see where things continue to evolve.
Between not being at the mercy of oil price, knowing it’s better for the planet and the generally zippier performance our next vehicle in a couple years will absolutely be an EV… that should be enough time for the highway charging infrastructure to be built out just a little more to make long road trips that much more practical! I'd assume you'll see those kinds of evolutions impact commercial vehicles too.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

A long way to go yet
7/7/2022 at 7:16 AM

For many people Forty thousand dollars is still unaffordable for a vehicle especially young drivers or those on a fixed retirement income, small business owners and lower income workers.
JessieJay
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 796

JessieJay
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 796

Long way to go
7/7/2022 at 11:36 AM

Adam said "
Leafs definitely aren’t the gold standard for the modern EV.

If you’re going to pick Ford, i don’t know anything about van you’re talking about but it would make sense to look at their newer mainstream consumer vehicles just to get a sense for where the tech is at. One of the more popular new models, the Ford Mustang EV, tested by a 3rd party at 459km for the extended range version and 340km for the standard version.
https://insideevs.com/reviews/520484/mustang-mach-e-range-test/amp/

F-150 lightning tested at over 400km:
https://insideevs.com/news/591589/ford-f150-lightning-70mph-range/amp/

Assume some degradation in that range during the winter in this climate but nowhere near enough to make impractical as a daily driver (and you’ll still get to Dauphin with plenty of juice ).
The cost talking point is slowly whittling away. With the gov credit a person can get one of the new Chev Bolt EUVs for sub-40k. Does 0-60 in 6.8 sec to boot.
For commercial, someone that knows more might need to add more but I think focus is on last mile delivery. This Canadian co that Amazon has an interest in makes Series 6 and 8 trucks rated at 200 miles (so 300+km): https://thelionelectric.com/
Biggest thing is that the industry is evolving fast, and todays cherry picked talking points are already tomorrows old news. It’ll be exciting to see where things continue to evolve.
Between not being at the mercy of oil price, knowing it’s better for the planet and the generally zippier performance our next vehicle in a couple years will absolutely be an EV… that should be enough time for the highway charging infrastructure to be built out just a little more to make long road trips that much more practical! I'd assume you'll see those kinds of evolutions impact commercial vehicles too.

"
Some of us do not need an SUV that can go 0 to 60 in 6.8 seconds....but we do need one that can tow more than 2000 lbs. That lets the Bolt out. That means the Lightning is about the only choice at this point and it is not so affordable. How is the Bolt in deep snow? This judging a vehicle on quick takeoff is useless IMO.
kevin89
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 227

kevin89
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 227

True
7/7/2022 at 11:52 AM

From what I've seen if a person/family plans on towing regularly over relatively long distances (200-300km+) then an EV Truck like the lightning or Rivian isnt likely a good option for you. Id wager the majority of people in urban areas dont do much, if any towing and that opens them up to an EV car/SUV, assuming its in their price range. Time will tell how our infrastructure will handle an increased load, even just on a neighbourhood basis but as Adam said, the technology is evolving quickly.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Vehicles
7/7/2022 at 1:28 PM

JessieJay said "Some of us do not need an SUV that can go 0 to 60 in 6.8 seconds....but we do need one that can tow more than 2000 lbs. That lets the Bolt out. That means the Lightning is about the only choice at this point and it is not so affordable. How is the Bolt in deep snow? This judging a vehicle on quick takeoff is useless IMO. "
Definitely different vehicles for different folks in different situations… industry has made a lot of progress in filling in those gaps over the last couple years and will no doubt continue to. I wouldn’t say judging it on 0-60 so much as seeing it as a cherry on top that for a similar level vehicle that a person might pay $1500-2000+ per year more on for gas to drive at todays prices (so $7500-10k+ over five years of ownership), EVs generally have more zip to boot. It runs opposite this misconception of EVs as being unilaterally soft.

I don’t think the Bolt EUV is a match if towing and deep snow driving are on the priority list, but at the same time I wouldn’t necessarily write off what it could get done with a set of winter tires for standard winter driving on cleared roads a La a similar car that happens to use gas to power the system that turns the wheels. Was taken for a rip in a plain ole Tesla sedan on a -30 day on snow packed roads a couple years ago and it handled itself just fine (with quite the little donut to boot, not that I’d recommend trying such a thing ).

Haven’t decided If I’d go Chevy for next vehicle because there are a lot of great players getting into EVs, but for our needs if we were we’d wait just a little more for the Equinox EV. It’s when you see that level of SUV at sub-$45k more common as an EV that I think you’re really going to start to see things tip around here.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Cost
7/7/2022 at 4:15 PM

Farmergeorge said "For many people Forty thousand dollars is still unaffordable for a vehicle especially young drivers or those on a fixed retirement income, small business owners and lower income workers. "
I'd be curious what make/model you'd identify as a new vehicle in order to be able to compare as best as possible (without getting into the used vs new debate, which is a whole other ball of wax).

The gap in price has definitely been the knock in early-days EVs and rightfully so. As vehicle prices come down (in this case $37,600 including the $5k Federal credit) and as gas goes up that gap in price slowly becomes less and less a part of the conversation... especially so in Manitoba where our electricity costs us quite a bit less than average.

Just roughing numbers for argument's sake. There will be a lot of variables for individual drivers that will affect costs on either type of vehicle, but to give an idea. Obviously don't base purchasing decisions on this so much as your own research based on your vehicle, driving style, costs, etc.

If you take a Chevy Trax, it's showing about $25k on the Chevrolet website to get a base model. Based on its mileage and the amount we'd drive in a year we'd pay more than $3k/year to feed it or $24k over eight years of ownership if gas happened to average $2/L (obviously no guarantees there either way). Throw in say $1k in oil changes and for us we'd be committing to somewhere in the neighbourhood give or take of $50k over the eight years of ownership when we sign on the vehicle.

Ballparking charge costs at current Manitoba hydro rates, for a Bolt EUV I'm getting that it would cost us less than $300 per year for electricity or say $2400 over eight years of ownership. That would be more than $21k (!!) less to power at today's rates. Co-incidentally a nice round $40k commitment over those eight years when added to the purchase price. That would have a person actually potentially committing somewhere in the area of $10k more over the eight years between buying the car and paying for fuel to get the gas-powered Trax versus the bolt.

Of course a person needs to add in variables like how much highway driving they do, driving style, the effect on mileage of each vehicle type during the colder months and if the price of oil or electricity go up or down and how much charging you'd do at home versus on the road. You could also get into whether Trax versus Bolt is apples-to-apples, tho for our use personally they seem pretty comparable. Either way the core point is that we're entering a spot where economically an EV can make sense and actually save total dollars even if the initial sticker is several thousand more than an old-fashioned gas powered vehicle.

For the F-150 vs Lightning, the link below is USA but has a fuel savings cost of $32k to drive the Lightning for ten years versus a comparable Ice vehicle. That will be based on USA fuel prices (cheaper), won’t account for Manitoba electricity being cheap on average and will be based on US dollars… but again illustrates how the total cost of ownership needle is moving and I suspect will continue to move:
https://insideevs.com/news/593076/ford-f150-lightning-ownership-cost/
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
7/7/2022 at 6:16 PM

Adam said "
I'd be curious what make/model you'd identify as a new vehicle in order to be able to compare as best as possible (without getting into the used vs new debate, which is a whole other ball of wax).

The gap in price has definitely been the knock in early-days EVs and rightfully so. As vehicle prices come down (in this case $37,600 including the $5k Federal credit) and as gas goes up that gap in price slowly becomes less and less a part of the conversation... especially so in Manitoba where our electricity costs us quite a bit less than average.

Just roughing numbers for argument's sake. There will be a lot of variables for individual drivers that will affect costs on either type of vehicle, but to give an idea. Obviously don't base purchasing decisions on this so much as your own research based on your vehicle, driving style, costs, etc.

If you take a Chevy Trax, it's showing about $25k on the Chevrolet website to get a base model. Based on its mileage and the amount we'd drive in a year we'd pay more than $3k/year to feed it or $24k over eight years of ownership if gas happened to average $2/L (obviously no guarantees there either way). Throw in say $1k in oil changes and for us we'd be committing to somewhere in the neighbourhood give or take of $50k over the eight years of ownership when we sign on the vehicle.

Ballparking charge costs at current Manitoba hydro rates, for a Bolt EUV I'm getting that it would cost us less than $300 per year for electricity or say $2400 over eight years of ownership. That would be more than $21k (!!) less to power at today's rates. Co-incidentally a nice round $40k commitment over those eight years when added to the purchase price. That would have a person actually potentially committing somewhere in the area of $10k more over the eight years between buying the car and paying for fuel to get the gas-powered Trax versus the bolt.

Of course a person needs to add in variables like how much highway driving they do, driving style, the effect on mileage of each vehicle type during the colder months and if the price of oil or electricity go up or down and how much charging you'd do at home versus on the road. You could also get into whether Trax versus Bolt is apples-to-apples, tho for our use personally they seem pretty comparable. Either way the core point is that we're entering a spot where economically an EV can make sense and actually save total dollars even if the initial sticker is several thousand more than an old-fashioned gas powered vehicle.

For the F-150 vs Lightning, the link below is USA but has a fuel savings cost of $32k to drive the Lightning for ten years versus a comparable Ice vehicle. That will be based on USA fuel prices (cheaper), won’t account for Manitoba electricity being cheap on average and will be based on US dollars… but again illustrates how the total cost of ownership needle is moving and I suspect will continue to move:
https://insideevs.com/news/593076/ford-f150-lightning-ownership-cost/
"
I’m not against electric vehicles but many questions remain. Initial new cost is still far too high for most people . Lifespan is going to be interesting given the current relatively short lifespan of battery packs and their replacement value. Is this repair cost going to render used electric vehicle resale value non existent? Are electric vehicles going to considered disposable after a few years because that is going to create more problems.
In my case I bought a used work vehicle for $20000, 14 years ago which now has 325000kms on it with no major failures and no plans to replace it. Will an electric vehicle compete with that relatively low entry cost and long lifespan? Will an electric vehicle cope with extensive gravel road driving, extensive towing, pushing through snow banks on uncleared back roads and off road work in the long term? Will many of us have to update our electrical service to cope with the increased demands of charging multiple family vehicles. Only time will tell . But much more work, development and building of infrastructure needs to happen for this to become practical.
Electric motorcycles are still plagued with terribly short riding range and huge initial new purchase cost compared to their conventional counterparts. That won’t matter to many people but I commute daily during warmer months on my bike and rely on its low cost per km. That’s not considering that there are other technologies out there being largely ignored that ultimately could’ve more practical and brought mainstream more quickly and been more affordable for the average working family.

Edited by Farmergeorge, 2022-07-07 18:24:17
hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

TFL
7/11/2022 at 2:05 PM

TFL did another truck comparison test, big v8 gas, v6 hybrid, v6 diesel and EV trucks

www.youtube.com/watch?v=:V3IRRoqgrvA

Surprisingly close on cost per mile between the diesel and EV especially considering extreme high cost of diesel right now

One thing was apparent in the video and what I've seen at charge stations around here, they don't seem to have much to do around them to keep you occupied for the hour or so it took him to go from 30% to 90%, what do EV people on here do when charging their EV ?

The other thing that I found interesting was all the trouble he had getting his truck to charge, went thru 3 chargers, you'd think a charge station would be nearly bulletproof, no moving parts or flowing liquid to worry about, I guess corrosion on the plug terminal could be an issue over time or maybe people roughly inserting or removing the charge connector dislodging pins or something.

Edited by hutchster, 2022-07-11 14:11:20
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

This
7/11/2022 at 2:57 PM

battle between electric vehicles and gas vehicles is similar to the horse vs the new horseless carriage (automobiles). In the early 20th century gas cars were pretty unreliable, not many places for gas, short range. But as technology evolved and got better so did the vehicles.
Arax
Joined: This month
Posts: 94

Arax
Joined: This month
Posts: 94

Interesting watch
7/12/2022 at 6:29 AM

Great video about what can be achieved if there's support from all levels
https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88

Edited by Arax, 2022-07-12 06:30:16
hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

dinosaur
7/12/2022 at 10:51 AM

I'll be the first to admit I'm a tech dinosaur, I work in the field of technology but am slow to adopt it on a personal level.

That being said I love my battery powered E-GO mower and can't see myself ever going back to gas power tools or lawn equipment.

Maybe I'll come around the to EV's, but I just don't see it happening, what confuses me is everyone thinking they are somehow better for the environment than ICE, both consume finite resources from the earth and both pollute, just in different ways and places.

I do like the efficiency of the electric drive motor, its just the massive batteries that sour me, just because there is no pollution coming out the back end of the car people seem to believe they are magical clean, earth saving vehicles when they're not.

The resources needed for them have to be mined and removed just like oil, yet there doesn't seem to be any bad press for lithium mining in the news daily unlike oil even though it devastates the environment.

And what happens with that 3000 pound EV battery when it reaches end of life, more poisonous chemicals added to the dump ?

Oddly enough batteries seem to have been one of the biggest problems for ICE vehicle recycling too, I seem to remember that junkyard that used to be on 1st and pacific, when they tore it down didn't they find a hidden wall in the back that was just piled high with old car batteries as they couldn't get rid of them and hid them, or was that just a rumor ?
Thummmper
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 58

Thummmper
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 58

information
7/12/2022 at 12:07 PM

https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/Capture2.jpg Link shows cost of EV batteries dropping 85% from 2010 to 2018 this combined with early model batteries going over 300,000 miles and companies like Tesla giving good warranties with 8 to 10 years total replacement with only 25% loss of capabilities the costs are quickly moving to an even playing fields for fossil fuel vehicles. as for old scrap yard on first st. (Brandon Scrap Iron) their recycling of old car batteries was archaic to say the least but every battery they opened, every scrap of lead and copper plates was reclaimed and do know never was there a wall of hidden batteries maybe old plastic cases from batteries as at that time there was no means of recycling plastic and do remember mountain's of them on site of Dinsdale Park before Davey Weiss owner of scrap yard donated that property to city who cleared site to make park as we know it now.
bean
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 135

bean
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 135

.
7/12/2022 at 12:14 PM

There is plenty of YouTube comparisons of vehicles making the same trip and fuel/charge cost comparisons. The cost of electricity at a charging station that is not your house is similar to purchasing the gas. It doesn't matter what the electricity cost is in Manitoba you are not purchasing it from Manitoba hydro in many situations you are purchasing it from a reseller.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Evolution
7/13/2022 at 8:19 AM

Trevor B said "battle between electric vehicles and gas vehicles is similar to the horse vs the new horseless carriage (automobiles). In the early 20th century gas cars were pretty unreliable, not many places for gas, short range. But as technology evolved and got better so did the vehicles. "
Case in point the news today of another 20% increase in battery density incoming…
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-tesla-supplier-panasonic-eyes-20-jump-battery-density-by-2030-2022-07-13/

There are some especially politically charged (ha) folks on social media spreading a few negative talking points to really try to dig in a narrative on EVs in similar fashion to other topics getting battled on political lines, but this shift is a freight train that it's hard to see doing anything but picking up into these next few years as hurdle over hurdle is worked through. It could easily take a decade or two to really tip, but it’ll be interesting to see the transition with gas stations. There’ll be some shift toward offering charging, but with a lot of charging happening at home the thought seems to be there probably won’t be the same level of need to re-energize on the go. Extra emphasis on c-store and food offerings, which you’re seeing the big fuel companies make bigger and bigger moves into!
Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

…
7/13/2022 at 11:05 AM

It’s going to take a long time to overcome the initial stereotypical
Perceptions of the first releases of the product line, particularly in locales like this. Even though there is currently arguably an ev for almost every use case already (well, upfront cost aside), old perceptions are hard to break.

As are the fears of depleted batteries in a decade or so. A common fear I hear is the minimum 10 or so grand to upgrade a battery once it’s useful life is exceeded. While it’s definitely worth considering, I know for a fact that even the best built ICE vehicles start to become money pits at around the 10 year mark. Considering the maintenance requirements in the interim, arguably long before.

What I don’t know is if all that maintenance between years 1 and 10 exceeds a replacement battery .
Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Swap em
7/13/2022 at 11:08 AM

Adam said "
Definitely the odd cherry-picked story out there trying to paint EVs in a lesser light as we go through the inevitable shift in how vehicles are powered that our planet will thank us for.
Sounds to me like they need a better plan if they aren’t able to make the ~400km in a charge work for a day, worst-case scenario with a top-up at a charger in between on similar intervals to when they’d go to a gas station in good old fashioned fossil fuel burners. Beauty is that if there’s a charger at the police station, all vehicles start the day at 100% without any kind of end of day gas station run!
"
This would be a good use case for swappable batteries. Done right, I feel like this could erase much of the range worries of most any fleet.

Again, aside from the upfront costs.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

New vs used
7/13/2022 at 12:17 PM

Farmergeorge said "I’m not against electric vehicles but many questions remain. Initial new cost is still far too high for most people . Lifespan is going to be interesting given the current relatively short lifespan of battery packs and their replacement value. Is this repair cost going to render used electric vehicle resale value non existent? Are electric vehicles going to considered disposable after a few years because that is going to create more problems.
In my case I bought a used work vehicle for $20000, 14 years ago which now has 325000kms on it with no major failures and no plans to replace it. Will an electric vehicle compete with that relatively low entry cost and long lifespan? Will an electric vehicle cope with extensive gravel road driving, extensive towing, pushing through snow banks on uncleared back roads and off road work in the long term? Will many of us have to update our electrical service to cope with the increased demands of charging multiple family vehicles. Only time will tell . But much more work, development and building of infrastructure needs to happen for this to become practical.
Electric motorcycles are still plagued with terribly short riding range and huge initial new purchase cost compared to their conventional counterparts. That won’t matter to many people but I commute daily during warmer months on my bike and rely on its low cost per km. That’s not considering that there are other technologies out there being largely ignored that ultimately could’ve more practical and brought mainstream more quickly and been more affordable for the average working family.

Edited by Farmergeorge, 2022-07-07 18:24:17"
You've touched on a few things I've wondered about this EV transition.

We don't buy new vehicles. Ever. Firstly, because we pay cash we can't afford it. Secondly, we've crunched the numbers and for an ICE anyway it's more economically sound to drive a used vehicle even with decreased fuel efficiency and higher maintenance. There is a point when that ceases to be the case, usually as the vehicle approaches the 15-20 year mark or so (depending).

We'll get to the point where we will be forced to buy an EV simply because that's all that will be available. We're starting to run into this with manual transmission - with less than 1% of all new car sales being manual in recent years, they are getting increasingly hard to find (it's our preference for my husband's commuter car).

But I have major reservations about the longevity of EVs and especially with the battery component. It's the weak spot in hybrids and why we've consistently shied away from them. Yes, batteries have come a long way and will continue to improve, but it's the resource extraction/disposibility problem that will be hard to overcome.

My worry is exactly what you say - that they will basically become something else that we throw away. Recycling helps but is not the panacea we tend to think it is. Most ICE vehicles on the road right now still have 50-75% of it's lifespan ahead of them. What is the lifespan on an EV?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. EVs are, at best, a stop-gap solution. The actual solution is simply to stop driving the way we do (and have EV for when we do). It will be a painful and expensive transition, and will require we rethink and reorganize a lot of our society, but it's currently the only path that has actually solves the problem.
Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

. . .
7/13/2022 at 12:34 PM

Abbysmum said "You've touched on a few things I've wondered about this EV transition.

We don't buy new vehicles. Ever. Firstly, because we pay cash we can't afford it. Secondly, we've crunched the numbers and for an ICE anyway it's more economically sound to drive a used vehicle even with decreased fuel efficiency and higher maintenance. There is a point when that ceases to be the case, usually as the vehicle approaches the 15-20 year mark or so (depending).

We'll get to the point where we will be forced to buy an EV simply because that's all that will be available. We're starting to run into this with manual transmission - with less than 1% of all new car sales being manual in recent years, they are getting increasingly hard to find (it's our preference for my husband's commuter car).

But I have major reservations about the longevity of EVs and especially with the battery component. It's the weak spot in hybrids and why we've consistently shied away from them. Yes, batteries have come a long way and will continue to improve, but it's the resource extraction/disposibility problem that will be hard to overcome.

My worry is exactly what you say - that they will basically become something else that we throw away. Recycling helps but is not the panacea we tend to think it is. Most ICE vehicles on the road right now still have 50-75% of it's lifespan ahead of them. What is the lifespan on an EV?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. EVs are, at best, a stop-gap solution. The actual solution is simply to stop driving the way we do (and have EV for when we do). It will be a painful and expensive transition, and will require we rethink and reorganize a lot of our society, but it's currently the only path that has actually solves the problem. "
So back to horse and buggy?

Remember that the initial topic of this thread was concerning a police fleet. Is society really going to accept that step back in time in terms of response time?

Personal freedom is one thing. But lives being on the line is another.

Does everyone need a personal vehicle to reap the benefits of driving? That is a possible starting point.

Edited by Simonwalcal, 2022-07-13 12:36:22
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
7/13/2022 at 1:13 PM

Simonwalcal said "So back to horse and buggy?

Remember that the initial topic of this thread was concerning a police fleet. Is society really going to accept that step back in time in terms of response time?

Personal freedom is one thing. But lives being on the line is another.

Does everyone need a personal vehicle to reap the benefits of driving? That is a possible starting point.

Edited by Simonwalcal, 2022-07-13 12:36:22"
No one here is talking about going backwards.
As a qualified mechanic I can confirm that with careful basic maintenance ( which most owners are perfectly capable of performing themselves) and sensible driving, most modern vehicles are easily capable of exceeding 10-20 years of age with the minimum of repairs and any required repairs can often be performed economically.
Electric vehicles and perhaps other power sources have their place in the future of transportation but very real questions remain concerning long term repairs( including battery replacement) , longevity, performance in extreme climates and ability to withstand arduous or heavy duty and towing requirements. The major issue for the average family or small business owner remains initial purchase cost and resale value. The technology is too new as yet to determine these values and many people will sit on the fence and watch where this goes before committing their hard earned and that would be a sensible approach.
I would like to replace my work truck with an electric or alternative fuel equivalent. As yet there is not an affordable or proven option available and many people will be in similar circumstances.

Edited by Farmergeorge, 2022-07-13 13:17:49
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Charging networks
7/14/2022 at 7:30 AM

Another area with major progress underway and planned…
Shell the latest company to build out a fast charger network. 500+ in Canada by 2025, more than one million(!!) globally by 2030:
http://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/shell-to-install-79-ev-charging-points-at-canadian-retail-stations-by-end-of-year-1.1791496

Other major Canadian station operators Couche-Tard and Parkland charging hard to build out networks of their own. Parkland is initially focusing more on BC, which speaks to that this transition is happening at different rates in different parts of the country.

Article above mentions that about 90% of the ~6800 charging locations in Canada right now are in Quebec, Ontario, BC. That’s why as of the second if we own one and only one car, it’s still not quite practical for us for that car to be EV when considering long road trips across provinces but change is clearly in the air there with all of the infrastructure being built out.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Not horse and buggy
7/14/2022 at 8:23 AM

Simonwalcal said "So back to horse and buggy?

Remember that the initial topic of this thread was concerning a police fleet. Is society really going to accept that step back in time in terms of response time?

Personal freedom is one thing. But lives being on the line is another.

Does everyone need a personal vehicle to reap the benefits of driving? That is a possible starting point.

Edited by Simonwalcal, 2022-07-13 12:36:22"
No one is suggesting that we go back to horse and buggy. But the conversation has drifted (as conversations naturally do) into EVs generally and their role in society.

Our future will require communities what don't rely on the car. That means that it's purpose-built so most people move by foot, active transport or public transport. That will also naturally make them more dense. So yes, it will be a step backwards in some senses. But the densification will mean range isn't as much of an issue for the EVs that exist in that world.

There are currently real-world issues with EVs. A lot of those issues are resolved somewhat with densification.
Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Simonwalcal
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 839

Ah. . .
7/14/2022 at 8:53 AM

Abbysmum said "No one is suggesting that we go back to horse and buggy. But the conversation has drifted (as conversations naturally do) into EVs generally and their role in society.

Our future will require communities what don't rely on the car. That means that it's purpose-built so most people move by foot, active transport or public transport. That will also naturally make them more dense. So yes, it will be a step backwards in some senses. But the densification will mean range isn't as much of an issue for the EVs that exist in that world.

There are currently real-world issues with EVs. A lot of those issues are resolved somewhat with densification. "
I can agree with this sentiment. But it does raise the issue that is virtually no one has urban planning on the agenda. And there seems little interest (at least, as of yet) in reversing the current trend of unsustainable sprawl. Note that I am including the financial element in the unsustainable category.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Transportation
7/14/2022 at 11:32 AM

Abbysmum said "No one is suggesting that we go back to horse and buggy. But the conversation has drifted (as conversations naturally do) into EVs generally and their role in society.

Our future will require communities what don't rely on the car. That means that it's purpose-built so most people move by foot, active transport or public transport. That will also naturally make them more dense. So yes, it will be a step backwards in some senses. But the densification will mean range isn't as much of an issue for the EVs that exist in that world.

There are currently real-world issues with EVs. A lot of those issues are resolved somewhat with densification. "
Totally agree that we need a bigger re-think of transportation. Something as simple as setting connections up to be more e-bike/electric scooter-friendly is a nice step. We’re getting there one bite at a time with for example some of the extra wide sidewalks the city seems to put in when they can, versus the 18th at mall area which is pretty messy for that kind of stuff. The new bridges on 18th look like they’ll be another step in the right direction to connect North to South. Great for half the year but doesn’t necessarily solve the winter problem unfortunately.

The other thing to keep in mind is that as self-driving cars become more tested and potentially the norm there’s a very realistic scenario where there’s a trend away from car ownership and toward vehicle hailing on an as-needed basis. Whether I’m still of driving age to see a time when the tech (and acceptance of it) would support me not having to drive is another question altogether
JosephC
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 135

JosephC
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 135

Self-driving cars
7/14/2022 at 12:04 PM

Adam said "
Totally agree that we need a bigger re-think of transportation. Something as simple as setting connections up to be more e-bike/electric scooter-friendly is a nice step. We’re getting there one bite at a time with for example some of the extra wide sidewalks the city seems to put in when they can, versus the 18th at mall area which is pretty messy for that kind of stuff. The new bridges on 18th look like they’ll be another step in the right direction to connect North to South. Great for half the year but doesn’t necessarily solve the winter problem unfortunately.

The other thing to keep in mind is that as self-driving cars become more tested and potentially the norm there’s a very realistic scenario where there’s a trend away from car ownership and toward vehicle hailing on an as-needed basis. Whether I’m still of driving age to see a time when the tech (and acceptance of it) would support me not having to drive is another question altogether
"
For North America, where good inter-city (or even intra-city) transit is widely unavailable, self-driving cars hold huge promise if we can get it right. We're not going to re-engineer our cities/towns in any realistic timeframe to make them more friendly to pedestrian/bike/e-bike options.

I've seen some estimates that the average passenger vehicle sits unused 95% of the time. Mine certainly does. If we were in a world where I could summon or schedule a self-driving vehicle to pick me up and take me where I need to go in a timely and reliable fashion, I would absolutely consider not owning any more vehicles. And if executed well, it would potentially be more cost-effective, safe and reliable than ownership.

I could even get on board with a model where owners of self-driving vehicles could make them available for the 95% of the time they are not being used, sort of like an airbnb for cars.

I quite dislike owning a vehicle. From the purchase cost, to maintenance and operating costs, parking costs, etc. Certainly it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would welcome not having to own something that sits in my driveway (or a parking lot) doing nothing most of the time.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Planning
7/14/2022 at 2:10 PM

Simonwalcal said "I can agree with this sentiment. But it does raise the issue that is virtually no one has urban planning on the agenda. And there seems little interest (at least, as of yet) in reversing the current trend of unsustainable sprawl. Note that I am including the financial element in the unsustainable category. "
Adam provided a couple of examples where it's starting to creep in, but the whole sprawl thing will be hard to get over. Some communities are taking first steps by eliminating zoning (Edmonton, for example), which would allow different types of (denser) housing to be built more easily instead of vast tracks of suburban single family housing. It would also have the benefit of helping tackle the housing affordability issue without totally collapsing the housing market.

Sprawl is terrible for city finances. The properties in these car-centric areas can never bring in a enough taxes to make them self-funding. Again, densification is a probable solution.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Self driving
7/14/2022 at 2:15 PM

JosephC said "For North America, where good inter-city (or even intra-city) transit is widely unavailable, self-driving cars hold huge promise if we can get it right. We're not going to re-engineer our cities/towns in any realistic timeframe to make them more friendly to pedestrian/bike/e-bike options.

I've seen some estimates that the average passenger vehicle sits unused 95% of the time. Mine certainly does. If we were in a world where I could summon or schedule a self-driving vehicle to pick me up and take me where I need to go in a timely and reliable fashion, I would absolutely consider not owning any more vehicles. And if executed well, it would potentially be more cost-effective, safe and reliable than ownership.

I could even get on board with a model where owners of self-driving vehicles could make them available for the 95% of the time they are not being used, sort of like an airbnb for cars.

I quite dislike owning a vehicle. From the purchase cost, to maintenance and operating costs, parking costs, etc. Certainly it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would welcome not having to own something that sits in my driveway (or a parking lot) doing nothing most of the time. "
I was super-dubious about self-driving technology, but I've come around. I sometime watch dash cam videos on YouTube, and I continue to be impressed by the collision avoidance the Tesla driver assist will make. It still has ways to go to be fully autonomous, but the potential is there.

I would get rid of my car in a heartbeat if there was reliable alternatives. Currently, my van hasn't even moved since Monday (today's Thursday I think?). I'm anxious for WestVic Commons to get filled in with more shops/services so I walk to do many of my errands.