Discussions

Here come the comments..  
 
In my opinion, unions have outlived their purpose. Now, they are more political and powerful than ever.  
 
They were once put in place to protect the working poor. Now they are a changed, political force. If you are a member of a powerful union and don't vote politically in their favour...  
 
Think NDP.  
 
I'm all for employees rights, but unions in my opinion have swayed people into a sheeple mentality.

There are occasions where the leadership of a union, like the leadership of any large organization, might not be reflecting the wishes of membership 100%, and there can be more politics and influence peddling than is ethical, but that is for union membership to take up with their leadership and say, hey, show me how you're helping me!  
 
Unions have helped to create everything from vacation time, 40 hour work week, health benefits, workers compensation, etc., etc., and their influence has caused employers that ARENT unionized to lift their own standards to compete with unionized workplaces, so many more have benefitted from unions than just those who are in union shops.  
 
I think the atmosphere of dissatisfaction can be partly attributed to too much influence peddling, but I think that workers today don't KNOW the history, and unions are maybe not as transparent as they should be to show membership what their dues pay for and what the protections the union offers are. Unions do a lot for workers across the board, but workers tend to be ignorant of everything except their own dues they see on their paycheque. If you're lucky enough to belong to a union, be grateful and if you don't see the value, talk to your leadership!

Unions will probably exist for a very long time, and maybe they still serve a purpose, but with all the government regulations regarding labor now in place, I think the need for unions has been greatly reduced. No question, the unions were the biggest driving force behind a lot of good labor legislation.  
 
It sometimes seems to me that unions will often flex their muscles when negotiating contracts, more to show their members the clout unions have over large employers, rather than to really serve the best interests of its members. That's my opinion anyway.  
 
I've never belonged to a union, but my wife has since the early seventies. I've had far less drama in my years of work, both negotiating wages for myself and dealing with day to day workplace issues than my "longtime union member" wife has. She has experienced workplace issues that were never resolved simply because the union was unwilling to discipline or terminate a troublesome union employee. My workplace, whether it was me as an employee or when I was an employer, would have had no problem resolving such an issue.  
 
I think that some of those that praise the worth of the unions the loudest may not be looking at the whole picture as objectively as they might.

fargobob said "Unions will probably exist for a very long time, and maybe they still serve a purpose, but with all the government regulations regarding labor now in place, I think the need for unions has been greatly reduced. No question, the unions were the biggest driving force behind a lot of good labor legislation.     It sometimes seems to me that unions will often flex their muscles when negotiating contracts, more to show their members the clout unions have over large employers, rather than to really serve the best interests of its members. That's my opinion anyway.     I've never belonged to a union, but my wife has since the early seventies. I've had far less drama in my years of work, both negotiating wages for myself and dealing with day to day workplace issues than my "longtime union member" wife has. She has experienced workplace issues that were never resolved simply because the union was unwilling to discipline or terminate a troublesome union employee. My workplace, whether it was me as an employee or when I was an employer, would have had no problem resolving such an issue.     I think that some of those that praise the worth of the unions the loudest may not be looking at the whole picture as objectively as they might. "

Our family work experience has mirrored yours and in the end unions now protect the rights of the......  
 
If we had it to do again no one in our family would ever work in a union environment again.

I have a family member who works in a now unionized manufacturing plant. The parent company is a USA based company. When the plant opened in Manitoba it was not unionized. The employees brought the union in, and in my mind rightfully so. One pre-union policy that remains embedded in my brain was 3 missed days in a calendar year and you are fired. Reason for missed days not needed, didn't matter what the reason was. So, if you got sick to the point of hospitalization and missed 3 shifts while in hospital (unpaid sick time) you were terminated, period. In cases like these, I feel unions are warranted.

I think that the needs for unions will never disappear. I used to not think much of them, but have to remember as previous posts have said, without them, our modern day work weeks we take for granted wouldn't exist without them. I do think that for a while they did get to powerful, and to retaliate many big companies did everything they could to bust them. I only have ever worked 1 job in a union almost 20 years ago, and even though the type of work I do was historically unionized, they just don't exist anymore yet I feel they could make a comeback. In the last 10 years the shift of income has drastically changed with CEO's making millions while the little worker has had no increases. I myself find myself again after doing my performance review hearing the sob story that times are tough and there is no increases again. Even though the plant I run did double the work of the previous year, we had staff cuts last year so we did more work with less people and wages were froze last year as well, I really feel that many people find themselves in the situation like me. I find it frustrating doing everything I think is right to do well for the company, and even supervisors say that I am doing amazing work but still can't get any increases, I really feel that workers age going to stand up soon and say enough. Politics and business are closely tied and after our election and how much emotion has been expressed over our change in government, personally I feel that big business is ruining our country as much as government because I read an article before Christmas about how much Harper lowered corporate tax rates to stimulate growth. Deep down I feel that should be a solid practice for any economy, yet businesses didn't reinvest it as hoped. The amount of dead money in Canadian corporations is mind blowing, and the little people sure could use it!

Yes Unions are still required, yes there are Labor standards and Workplace Safety and Health Rules but those can be changed with the stroke of a pen. With pressure from companies you would see those slowly disappear. Safety and Labor standards cost $$$$.  
 
Unions don't make the decision to discipline or terminate an employee. Management decides on discipline or termination. The Union just ensures that management applies the disciplinary process set out in a Union contract. If the process is followed anyone can be terminated, unfortunately lots of management would rather blame the union that do there jobs. Unions have the obligation to provide the Duty of Fair Representation to its members.  
 
If your a Union Member it's not "The Union", you are the Union. You get to vote to accept or reject your next contract, you vote for your representatives in your Union office, and vote to pass your budget.  
 
Yes some Unions are politically active, but so are Corporations. Corporations are looking out for their bottom line, who's looking out for your bottom line?  
 
Edited by swiller, 2016-01-13 20:58:24

"Unions don't make the decision to discipline or terminate an employee. Management decides on discipline or termination"  
 
That is correct, I suppose I might have worded that a little better. More correctly, the union got in the way of the employer's attempt to discipline or terminate the employee to the point where the employer left it unresolved. Overall, even though it was the wrong way to handle the situation, that's what happened. As I said before, the same situation would have been resolved in most non-union workplaces.  
 
Most everyone I've spoken with, (pro union or not) that works in a unionized workplace, has a story to tell that has some sort of resemblance to what I described in my earlier post.  
 
Maybe it bears repeating, I think that some of those that praise the worth of the unions the loudest may not be looking at the whole picture as objectively as they might.  

Not one good reason to get rid of unions even those against admit they have done good and where necessary, not one reason that would justify ending all the good they have done and do now ,couple nit picky reasons unions arnt perfect in all situations but what we had was before was unacceptable why would we risk slipping back into those ways, not enough unions in my opinion look at low age jobs they arnt keeping up with inflation and the only answer from the peanut gallery is get a better job get educated, while most of the minimum wage corporations make record profits and we have made education something only the wealthy can afford.

fargobob said ""Unions don't make the decision to discipline or terminate an employee. Management decides on discipline or termination"     That is correct, I suppose I might have worded that a little better. More correctly, the union got in the way of the employer's attempt to discipline or terminate the employee to the point where the employer left it unresolved. Overall, even though it was the wrong way to handle the situation, that's what happened. As I said before, the same situation would have been resolved in most non-union workplaces.     Most everyone I've spoken with, (pro union or not) that works in a unionized workplace, has a story to tell that has some sort of resemblance to what I described in my earlier post.     Maybe it bears repeating, I think that some of those that praise the worth of the unions the loudest may not be looking at the whole picture as objectively as they might.   "

I agree with you in a non-union workplace, the same situation most likely would have been resolved. Although it might not have been to the satisfaction to the person complaining. But once again it isn't the unions fault the employer didn't resolve the problem, they simply did there job. They have the Duty for Fair Representation! Unions basically try to provide a defense, if the employer doesn't want to prosecute that is their decision.  
 
Do you actually think the union wants members who are constantly causing problems? It costs them time and money.  
 
I'll also agree with you that most people have a story about a union protecting some slacker.  
 
Unfortunately, you never hear about the instances where the union goes to bat for the individuals that are hardworking and are being treated unjustly. Those stories never come out because they are resolved thanks to the union.  
 
In "My" Union we currently have one grievance, in that instance an individual made a mistake and the discipline was warranted, the individual accepted it, the grievance is for the rest of his crew that had no part in his mistake, but also received discipline.  
 
I take offense to the comment "I think that some of those that praise the worth of the unions the loudest may not be looking at the whole picture as objectively as they might.". I don't think it is the pro union people not looking at the whole picture, I think its anti union people not seeing what truly goes on behind unions closed doors so they can't see the whole picture.  
 
In a world where all employers treated all of there employees fairly they would be no need for unions.  
 
Gotta go can't be late for work.

My feelings of whether unions are needed change day to day. There are times when economic conditions leave certain groups, who are working in non unionized jobs, with large differences in income levels. If a wage contract comes up for renewal during or near the end of an strong period of growth in the economy, wage negotions will usually reflect a continuation of that growth with requests of higher wages whichay not be reflected in the years following the signing of the contract. I have had it explained toe that it isn't a situation of getting ahead but nearly catching up for not anticipation growth in the past contract.  
 
Something I think that we should all remember is, in general people are greedy, doesn't matter if it's owners or workers we all want more. If we look at the American steel manufacturing it was once one of the most powerful of all industries in the US if not the world, it also had one of the most powerful of all unions, but today the industry is basically gone.  
 
We have lived in an inflationary economy for a long time, and that has worked well for unions, although in the private sector unions have resulted in large job loss because of automation or outsourcing of jobs which is the reality of a global economy and competition.  
 
What I've always been curious about is how unions are going to react if we enter into a deflationary period, will unions ask workers to accept taking less or give up benefits to keep jobs, I guess it has happened before but usually is not acceptable by employees.  
 
I guess it's just me but I believe over the next few years we are going to see some large changes in our economy as far as jobs and standard of living, and are unions as well as unionized employees going to be able to accept change, or will the be the cause of their own demise.  
 
I hope I haven't come across as completely anti union because there still is a place for unions. Maybe it's just a situation that I look at our country not being competitive in the global market and realize that wages are a part of it, when was the last time that people took less, which is part of capitalism, and which is something that many have forgotten.

The short answer to your question, in my opinion, is "no". I don't think they're necessary. Everything that unions once formed to negotiate is covered under labour standards.  
 
Now when I think of unions I think of a nurse ignoring vomit on the floor by a patient's bed because she's not allowed to clean it up lest she be grieved for doing the cleaners job.  
 
I think of how I went from my best semester at school to the professors ransoming my education during their strike.  
 
I think of parents in British Colombia gathering to do educational things with their children while the teachers were on strike.  
 
I think of how people were operating illegal low cost taxi services during the Saskatoon transit strike a couple years back.  
 
And I think about the politics I saw within the union ranks at a company I used to work for and sat in on negotiations and watched the top dogs bargaining for themselves and convincing the ranks that it was all for one and one for all. It wasn't.  
 
I think we're at a day in age when people have learned to abuse their position and hide behind the near unbreakable cover of a bargaining agreement. I think it effects the most important services we pay taxes to enjoy the privilege of in this country and I think as a citizen, I am slave to it. If medical staff, educators and the public transportation can all come to a grinding halt, and hold the Canadian public ransom at the whim of a union, then they have outlived their usefulness and they're just holding us back now.

 
 
Edited by Midway55, 2016-01-14 09:12:03

One place I believe that unions do maybe present a benefit is when it comes to dealing with wages. Most businesses, both private and public, are made up of different occupations and have pay scales that cover these differences. Just imagine if ever different occupation within a business dealt with it's own wages. Could be wrong on this, but I feel that both in the private and public sector if everyone tried to negotiate by themselves we would face continuous work stoppages.

don brown said "One place I believe that unions do maybe present a benefit is when it comes to dealing with wages. Most businesses, both private and public, are made up of different occupations and have pay scales that cover these differences. Just imagine if ever different occupation within a business dealt with it's own wages. Could be wrong on this, but I feel that both in the private and public sector if everyone tried to negotiate by themselves we would face continuous work stoppages. "

It all depends. What I find in regarding wages there is no incentive to work harder. Why would I constantly give 110% when the guy beside me calls in every month, gives 60%, takes longer coffee breaks, etc? I have worked in both union and non-union jobs and I make way more in a non-union job. About the only way I was able to make more money in a union was to be paid at a skill level higher than what I was doing. My bosses wanted to give me more money but bound by the contract of the union. So essentially the union was withholding my ability to make more money. And the kick in the nuts was I was paying them to do so. Have a buddy in Alberta working a courier job. Disabled he makes on average 150 deliveries a day no matter what route he is on. Other drivers average 50-60 a day. Workers are now pisses at this guy for showing them up and now bosses try to expect the same out of them too. And they cannot pay my buddy more either as they would need to pay everyone the same then.  
 
Everyone says unions fight for fair pay because companies are making all these millions of dollars. Have any of these union supporters ever looked at their own union and seen the money the union pulls in? Unions rake in piles of cash. Now it is more about what can the union get rather what can the employee get. Unions had its place many years ago I don't disagree. I have been on both sides of the fence and realizing now what companies that are not even unionized have to do with labor standards and health and safety....It doesn't matter where you work there are laws. One person wrote that they can be changed with a stroke of a pen. Well same with union policies too. Unions don't trump safety legislation or stuff like that.

Why do I give more effort than the slacker giving 60%? Promotions to a higher responsibility and pay grade. Also, performance reviews and raises.  

Years ago, fresh out of high school, I worked for an independently owed franchised business. I was told to work hard and raises would be awarded on performance. After 3 mths I was awarded a small increase and was told what my pros and cons. After another 3 mths (6 mths of employment) and was awarded a very healthy raise. In the 2+ yrs I worked there, I had received 5 increases. I worked hard, showed up every shift, and did my best to fill in when called upon.  
This path in my life taught me hard work does pay off.  
 
This would never happen in an unionized job.  
 
I have also worked in an unionized job, and it doesn't matter how hard (or less) you work the person next to you gets paid the same. But if not for the union, you may never get pay raises.  
 
I personally would prefer not to work in union job.  
 

ultraguy said "Why do I give more effort than the slacker giving 60%? Promotions to a higher responsibility and pay grade. Also, performance reviews and raises.   "

Knows nothing about unions so he makes up a bunch of garbage.

Whiskers said "    ultraguy said "Why do I give more effort than the slacker giving 60%? Promotions to a higher responsibility and pay grade. Also, performance reviews and raises.   " Knows nothing about unions so he makes up a bunch of garbage. "

Ok....Please enlighten me then since I know know nothing about them. Sorry only familiar with UFCW and Teamsters. Since I know nothing I will do up a batch of popcorn and wait for your informative post correcting me instead of first post on this thread is saying I make things up. Please I will be waiting.

ultraguy said "Why do I give more effort than the slacker giving 60%? Promotions to a higher responsibility and pay grade. Also, performance reviews and raises.   "

Is that with a unionized position? I do the same as you say in a non unionized environment and it has treated me well. I never want to work in a unionized position again.

Yes it is. Have been in two different unions at two different companies and both have been like that.

Fishin Guy said "    don brown said "One place I believe that unions do maybe present a benefit is when it comes to dealing with wages. Most businesses, both private and public, are made up of different occupations and have pay scales that cover these differences. Just imagine if ever different occupation within a business dealt with it's own wages. Could be wrong on this, but I feel that both in the private and public sector if everyone tried to negotiate by themselves we would face continuous work stoppages. " It all depends. What I find in regarding wages there is no incentive to work harder. Why would I constantly give 110% when the guy beside me calls in every month, gives 60%, takes longer coffee breaks, etc? I have worked in both union and non-union jobs and I make way more in a non-union job. About the only way I was able to make more money in a union was to be paid at a skill level higher than what I was doing. My bosses wanted to give me more money but bound by the contract of the union. So essentially the union was withholding my ability to make more money. And the kick in the nuts was I was paying them to do so. Have a buddy in Alberta working a courier job. Disabled he makes on average 150 deliveries a day no matter what route he is on. Other drivers average 50-60 a day. Workers are now pisses at this guy for showing them up and now bosses try to expect the same out of them too. And they cannot pay my buddy more either as they would need to pay everyone the same then.     Everyone says unions fight for fair pay because companies are making all these millions of dollars. Have any of these union supporters ever looked at their own union and seen the money the union pulls in? Unions rake in piles of cash. Now it is more about what can the union get rather what can the employee get. Unions had its place many years ago I don't disagree. I have been on both sides of the fence and realizing now what companies that are not even unionized have to do with labor standards and health and safety....It doesn't matter where you work there are laws. One person wrote that they can be changed with a stroke of a pen. Well same with union policies too. Unions don't trump safety legislation or stuff like that. "

I still say you make up stories, Facts are union jobs pay more than non Union and when you make up stories l like you give 110%and someone gives 60% that is laughable and why don't you name the union place you worked and the non Union place that pays more.. Really can you name the companies you are talking about?

Labor Standards don't cover 'everything' a union collective agreement does. A number of years ago, I was in a term position with the Federal Government. The local 'board' decided to end my term 6 months early for no reason other than my 'services were not required'. Labor standards would not have helped me at all. The union filed a greivance, and although it took quite a while, it was determined that ending my term was not fair and just. I was awarded 6 months of pay, including the average of my overtime for the previous 6 months.

If this would have been 6 months ago i would have said no but ... If a company decides they don't need you or want you without a union they just have to say get out clean out your locker no reason needed ..This applies to management as well which is non union. out you go. It sucks but companies can be brutal.  

notice how people complain about being forced to pay Union dues? Ever notice how these same people never complain about being forced to take the pay, benefits and protection offered from the Union contract. Ever wonder where labour laws and standards come from that protect all working people?

I find unions the same as the government. They get what they want no matter what at all costs. It is a coat of armour. Just try and fire a union member. Just try and discipline a member. Remember the fire department fiasco? They are above the law. I'm 45 years old and have plenty of friends in unions. Sometimes, the crap that comes out of their mouths make me sick. Anyone that needs a union to back up their work needs it for a reason.

The problem with labour laws are that they are not followed in many non-union jobs. Yes, as an employee it is up to you to hold your employer accountable, but in work culture, the idea is that if you are a good employee, you try not to be a pain-in-the-butt to your employer, so you don't bring up labour laws with your employer unless you don't like your job and are preparing to leave.  
 
I have worked in construction and almost saw my boss die because multiple safety precautions were not taken, any one of which would have helped the situation.  
 
I have seen fellow employees, and even myself do stupid unsafe things because we wanted to get the job done, even though if we brought it up with our employer I don't think he would have had a problem with finding a safer way for us to do it. But the workplace culture wasn't focussed on safety-first.  
 
I had a job where the setup and takedown of company equipment wasn't a part of a my paid hours, but it was a chill job so I didn't complain. At the same job, I didn't have a lunch break where I had no responsibility.  
 
And think of all the retail workers who feel obliged to finish helping a customer even though their shift has ended, and labour law says they are not required to work overtime, but their employer does not have procedures for such situations in place  
 

I currently work at a place that has a union. I am vocal in my distaste for this union. Our rep is so vocal on her dislike of the person who started our company. Degraded me when I took a stand on something I believe that employees should have (why are benefits so unheard of here?). The good employees leave because the crappt ones stay. How many times does a staff need to be written up, etc.

I currently work at a place that has a union. I am vocal in my distaste for this union. Our rep is so vocal on her dislike of the person who started our company. Degraded me when I took a stand on something I believe that employees should have (why are benefits so unheard of here?). The good employees leave because the crappt ones stay. How many times does a staff need to be written up, etc.