Discussions

It''s so clear to me that many individuals posting on this thread have absolutely no idea what a "psychotic epidode" is. You are so fortunate not to know and I do hope you never experience it yourselves or have a loved one experience it while you watch them. It's truly a life changing event. I am not sure because I''ve never done hard drugs, but from what I''ve read, LSD is a potent drug that induces hallucinations.  
So, it would appear that if you take a triple dose of LSD, you probably will have a period where you are in a similar state as someone experiencing a "psychotic episode". Not telling to go and do LSD, but if you then you'd be in a better position to post your opinion on this thread. Remember though that if you take LSD or any other drug for that matter, you''re doing it by choice. DeGrout did not choose his psychotic episode.  
Too many posting on this thread have absolutely no idea what psychosis is and somehow seem to beleive that because DeGrout remembers bits and pieces of the Killings that he was mentally sound that night. For those posters.....your ignorance shows and you are so lucky and don''t know it!!!!!  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-05-29 09:14:26

Oh some these comments make my head hurt. How can people not want this person to do time for the crimes he committed? Psychotic or not he needs to be punished. What is stopping future criminals from saying "God told me to do it" and get off on a psycho? Where do you draw the line? Granted, I have no experience in mental illness, but I have a decent knowledge of common sense. You do the crime you do the time.  
 
On a side topic, but still relevant, if this guy can claim a psycho experience and get away from 5 murders, how come someone who gets so drunk/drugged they don't know what they are doing kills someone and everyone screams bloody murder and wants them in jail for 25 years? Are people going to say that "he chose to do the drugs/consume alcohol" and you can't choose a psycho illness.  
 
Earlier a poster (can't remember the name sorry) mentions they knew they were not feeling well, but they pretended it wasn't there.... Now, don't take this the wrong way, but if that person was to do something wrong, they KNEW something wasn't right and ignored it. Wouldn't that make them fit the same bill (in this case) as drugs/alcohol I mentioned?

From reading all the posts on both sides, our society has a long way to go to answer these valid questions being posted on both sides. IMO throwing a person who is mentally ill who commits a crime in jail is not the answer. It is simply not the answer and as a society we simply do not have the resources to do that. Will people take advantage of that...yes...of course they will. It is up to the courts to weed out those people and prevent that from happening. On the other hand, the victims and their families deserve some form of closure for their losses.  
 
Part of it will be, IMO, in the increased awareness of mental illness and early diagnosis to avoid situations such as those discussed in this thread. We need to get rid of the negative stigma associated with it and help people feel comfortable discussing mental illness openly without being rejected from society/friends/family.

FarmerMike said "Oh some these comments make my head hurt. How can people not want this person to do time for the crimes he committed? Psychotic or not he needs to be punished. What is stopping future criminals from saying "God told me to do it" and get off on a psycho? Where do you draw the line? Granted, I have no experience in mental illness, but I have a decent knowledge of common sense. You do the crime you do the time.     On a side topic, but still relevant, if this guy can claim a psycho experience and get away from 5 murders, how come someone who gets so drunk/drugged they don't know what they are doing kills someone and everyone screams bloody murder and wants them in jail for 25 years? Are people going to say that "he chose to do the drugs/consume alcohol" and you can't choose a psycho illness.     Earlier a poster (can't remember the name sorry) mentions they knew they were not feeling well, but they pretended it wasn't there.... Now, don't take this the wrong way, but if that person was to do something wrong, they KNEW something wasn't right and ignored it. Wouldn't that make them fit the same bill (in this case) as drugs/alcohol I mentioned? "

A host of tests are performed to determine whether or not someone has schizophrenia. For someone to just say 'God told me to do it' isn't enough. If it were, something like 99% of the most notorious killers of the last couple hundred years would've been sent to mental institutions rather than prisons.  
 
Lots of totally sane people will cry 'God told me to do it' and will NOT be found to be NCR due to not meeting the criteria for schizophrenia. MRI scans, CT scans, blood tests, physical exams and thorough psychological assessments (and perhaps even more types of tests that I've forgotten) are performed before any kind of diagnosis is made.  
 
Sick people need help, my friend. Keeping a sick person locked up in a cell is:  
 
1. A big waste of money  
2. Cruel  
3. Lazy  
 
Now I must emphasize that what this man did was unfortunate and I feel bad for the families of the victims. But I feel that everyone in this situation was a victim.

What this guy did was unfortunate? Unfortunate? All I can say is wow. This world is pretty sick if someone taking 5 peoples lives in "unfortunate".

The unknown said "What this guy did was unfortunate? Unfortunate? All I can say is wow. This world is pretty sick if someone taking 5 peoples lives in "unfortunate". "

'Unfortunate' can be defined as 'sad' and a host of other things. I'm quite certain few would disagree with me that this whole situation is sad as hell.

your keys in your car is unfortunate. Dropping your favorite coffee cup and watching it smash on the floor is also unfortunate. Having your child murdered is a bit more than just 'unfortunate'. This man needs to be held to account for the actions he did. Else we just excuse away all our wrong doings.

FarmerMike said "Oh some these comments make my head hurt. How can people not want this person to do time for the crimes he committed? Psychotic or not he needs to be punished. What is stopping future criminals from saying "God told me to do it" and get off on a psycho? Where do you draw the line? Granted, I have no experience in mental illness, but I have a decent knowledge of common sense. You do the crime you do the time.     On a side topic, but still relevant, if this guy can claim a psycho experience and get away from 5 murders, how come someone who gets so drunk/drugged they don't know what they are doing kills someone and everyone screams bloody murder and wants them in jail for 25 years? Are people going to say that "he chose to do the drugs/consume alcohol" and you can't choose a psycho illness.     Earlier a poster (can't remember the name sorry) mentions they knew they were not feeling well, but they pretended it wasn't there.... Now, don't take this the wrong way, but if that person was to do something wrong, they KNEW something wasn't right and ignored it. Wouldn't that make them fit the same bill (in this case) as drugs/alcohol I mentioned? "

What if you were out driving, and completely unbeknownst to you, your wheel was coming loose (bad wheel bearings let''s say), anyway, all of a sudden, the wheel comes loose, you lose control, and plow into 5 people, killing them.  
 
Are you a criminal? A murderer? Must you be punished as such?  
No, its a tragedy.  
 
In this case this mans mind came loose, schizophrenia is inflammation in the brain that causes over activation and sporatic firing of neurons, the result is often complete loss of reality and hallucinations to such depth that one might not even realize what''s happening to them, or that they are even sick, only an outside observer could tell.  
 
Is he a CRIMINAL! MURDERER! ?  
No he''s a part of the tragedy no different than the driver of the vehicle. He will get further treatment and evaluation at a hospital by professionals who will stake their reputations if they decide one day that he''s no longer a risk.  
 
And yes, without maintence medication to control the disease, there could be a relapse, same as if the mended vehicle is not maintained it could relapse to a dangerous condition, but now that this man knows what will happen if he doesn''t take those meds, its quite certain he will.  
 
And as was mentioned earlier, there''s far more physical(unfakeable) diagnostic protocol to establish that a person has schizophrenia than them simply acting weird and saying "god told me to do it".  
 
Also, to address your side topic, drugs/alcohol is not the same because it''s self-induced psychosis. They CHOSE to go into that state, and as a result have to take responsibility for what occurs while they are in that state.  
 
Edited by Enfyre, 2016-05-29 23:51:43

Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.  
 
People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep.

zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. "

I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.  
 
If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.  
 
That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault.

Enfyre I can see your point at comparing the two, but in how many cases does a normal happy person just snap, with no changes in behaviour, attitude, etc. Like I said, a previous poster said they didn't feel right and hoped it would go away. Right there is your key, if something isn't right you have to do something.  
 
Using your analogy, that's like hearing a noise in your car and saying " it's fine". Then your wheels fall off and you hurt someone. (Granted I don't think you could get in too much trouble if a wheel broke off and you get in an accident, it is unforseeable but I could be wrong).  
 
So getting back to my point about drugs and alcohol, while it is true that you choose to do them, it can be hard to control ones actions while on them. But, should you do something illegal while on them you are still punished. So, if a person knows something isn't right with themselves and CHOOSES not to go to a doctor, how are they not responsible? They know something is wrong and can lead to bigger problems.

As for your last sentence  
 
""People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep.""  
 
What exactly is mental upkeep and how do you do it, is there a service schedule I''''m not aware of?  
 
Like I said above, might it of occurred to you that the disease could so alter, distort and erode their mind, that they might not even be aware that they have changed and even be able to recall their previous sane state to compare to.  
 
It''''s like if I removed 1 IQ point away from someone every month, not enough that they could notice each time, but after a few years there''''s profound change to their cognitive abilities, so much so that they would have lost the mental faculties to even cross-compare to their previous state and see what''''s happening to themselves. They might become too mentally disabled to even realize they are disabled, and wouldn''''t know to get help for it.  
Only an outside observer could tell.  
 
Edited by Enfyre, 2016-05-30 10:05:29

FarmerMike said "Enfyre I can see your point at comparing the two, but in how many cases does a normal happy person just snap, with no changes in behaviour, attitude, etc. Like I said, a previous poster said they didn't feel right and hoped it would go away. Right there is your key, if something isn't right you have to do something.     Using your analogy, that's like hearing a noise in your car and saying " it's fine". Then your wheels fall off and you hurt someone. (Granted I don't think you could get in too much trouble if a wheel broke off and you get in an accident, it is unforseeable but I could be wrong).     So getting back to my point about drugs and alcohol, while it is true that you choose to do them, it can be hard to control ones actions while on them. But, should you do something illegal while on them you are still punished. So, if a person knows something isn't right with themselves and CHOOSES not to go to a doctor, how are they not responsible? They know something is wrong and can lead to bigger problems. "

My last reply to zombie covers why it's wrong to assume they knew about the disease and "chose" not to get help.  
 
I get people's feelings on this case, it touches on to a grey area, and I have no doubt that many real criminals attempt to take advantage of NCR, but I have trust in the courts and medical professionals to make those determinations, because there are cases when the defendant was truly a victim of a profound mental illness that took away the sense of reality that we all take for granted, at no fault of their own.

Here's a hint, if you're hearing voices in your head, you should probably go talk to a therapist, not go on a murderous rampage, killing 5 innocent teenagers.  
 
Hearing voices in your head is not normal, I assure you if I thought I was hearing voices in my head telling me to kill people, I would go talk to someone about it.  
 
Mental illness is a horrible thing, I'd hate to experience it, either first or second hand, but it beats being murdered, I'd wager.

zombie said "Here's a hint, if you're hearing voices in your head, you should probably go talk to a therapist, not go on a murderous rampage, killing 5 innocent teenagers.     Hearing voices in your head is not normal, I assure you if I thought I was hearing voices in my head telling me to kill people, I would go talk to someone about it.     Mental illness is a horrible thing, I'd hate to experience it, either first or second hand, but it beats being murdered, I'd wager. "

he might have heard those voices in his head and assumed that was normal. That everyone hears voices.

The person hearing voices isn't able to determine that they are 'in their head'. The voices are real to that person. That is part of the mental illness - they are unable to sort the 'real' voices/ thoughts/ beliefs from the ones that are caused by the mental illness.

If a car loses its steering will and you kill 5 people, or your car gets struck by lightning and you kill 5 people, or you give hundreds of different situations about things you can't control, I understand, but what I don't understand is when something snaps in a person, how does it drive a person to go grab a knife and stab 5 people and hunt the ones down that he didn't do right the first time and finish things of. IMO that's a lot different than my tire falling off and hitting someone.If the path of that tire hit someone then that is terrible but understandable, but if the tire sought someone out to hit then that's different.  
 
Nothing explains why someone in their inner thoughts wants to go do something so disturbing as kill someone. I am pretty sure that everyone who has a mental illness or snaps without warning doesn't go kill someone. If that is in someone to go do, wether they know or can control it or not, then they should be put away for a long time. In whatever facility is best to help them but it should be for a VERY long time. And the families that lost their kids to this should not have to relive it every year just to make sure this guys doesn't get out.

as alluded to in this thread I suffer mental illness - Treatment resistant depression. It is not like the other 199 mental illness''s out there. If I were to kill someone, I would never get NCR, I would get charged with murder. I don''t hear voices, I would not know how to fake schizophrenia, nor would anyone who does not have it (the dr''s would be able to see a fake). So, people with mental illness could in fact end up in jail. People that hear voices and pychosis, will probably not - that is not normal, it is not always recognized in the patient that something is wrong, just the way they think they should live, so don''t get help. (curlysister - anywhere close on this?)  
 
Edited by Brenda, 2016-05-30 18:18:38

stonepicker said "By the looks of the reports he knew exactly what he was doing and still remembers what he did. He should be held accountable for his actions. "

I know, I read all the tweets, action while during trial - and he definately does remember - and he had Intent - cause he remembers thinking that those 4 on the couch would now tell on him - so he had to kill them too. Just reading that one statement, makes it clear to me that he planned to kill - he did not need to kill anyone, even if he thought the guy in the kitchen was a Zombie.  
 
I still feel this case needs to be retried. Something seems skewed to me . . . I mean, why pull the "mental Health Card out" after he admits to choosing to kill those 4 - seems he had a lapse of contientousness after all - no one is calling him out on that fact though. smh

70`s guy said "It''s so clear to me that many individuals posting on this thread have absolutely no idea what a "psychotic epidode" is. You are so fortunate not to know and I do hope you never experience it yourselves or have a loved one experience it while you watch them. It's truly a life changing event. I am not sure because I''ve never done hard drugs, but from what I''ve read, LSD is a potent drug that induces hallucinations.   So, it would appear that if you take a triple dose of LSD, you probably will have a period where you are in a similar state as someone experiencing a "psychotic episode". Not telling to go and do LSD, but if you then you'd be in a better position to post your opinion on this thread. Remember though that if you take LSD or any other drug for that matter, you''re doing it by choice. DeGrout did not choose his psychotic episode.   Too many posting on this thread have absolutely no idea what psychosis is and somehow seem to beleive that because DeGrout remembers bits and pieces of the Killings that he was mentally sound that night. For those posters.....your ignorance shows and you are so lucky and don''t know it!!!!!     Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-05-29 09:14:26"

that may be true, however he CHOSE to act out like he did. He could have chosen to just walk away - instead he went after the other 4 - one was sleeping upstairs - don't tell me he did not have to "think" and remember where the one guy was - and walk up those stairs with his assault weapon - nope - I still think his daddy just pushed this one through at the last minute tossing the "Mental Health Card" on the court table - sorry - but that does not mean I do not have any idea of what "psychotic episodes are" - he still had "Freedom of Choice" = and he made alot of conscious choices - from my point of view!

FarmerMike said "Oh some these comments make my head hurt. How can people not want this person to do time for the crimes he committed? Psychotic or not he needs to be punished. What is stopping future criminals from saying "God told me to do it" and get off on a psycho? Where do you draw the line? Granted, I have no experience in mental illness, but I have a decent knowledge of common sense. You do the crime you do the time.     On a side topic, but still relevant, if this guy can claim a psycho experience and get away from 5 murders, how come someone who gets so drunk/drugged they don't know what they are doing kills someone and everyone screams bloody murder and wants them in jail for 25 years? Are people going to say that "he chose to do the drugs/consume alcohol" and you can't choose a psycho illness.     Earlier a poster (can't remember the name sorry) mentions they knew they were not feeling well, but they pretended it wasn't there.... Now, don't take this the wrong way, but if that person was to do something wrong, they KNEW something wasn't right and ignored it. Wouldn't that make them fit the same bill (in this case) as drugs/alcohol I mentioned? "

totally agree with this - Freedom of choice is obvious - the problem is I think alot of the people posting do not take the time to read ALL evidence/comments by the witnesses - they are just making up excuses - that is the sad thing. Wish people would read the links I post - thank you for your articulation Mike.

Enfyre said "    zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. " I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.     If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.     That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault. "

Did you read the link I provided??? It says they did 2 Psyche evaluations - and he was found able to stand on Trial - his parents tried to say he was mentally unstable, yet a Psychologist found TWICE that he was capable of sitting on Trial - so what is the true message being sent out now???  
 
Yeah - it seems like he had NO diagnosis before hand - chose to grab the knife, chose to slash people, then walked over to someone sitting on the couch, after he rationalized that they could identify him, chose to walk upstairs, and kill the guy sleeping - no one was threatening him - he CHOSE all his actions - can recall his thoughts - has a Daddy that works in the Legal Field, who tosses out this "God told me too" blame game commentary - and this is OK with you??? He planned for this - that is INTENT my friend. That means GUILT - what don't you understand??? Have you read the links I have posted??? I can post them again - if you need help with that.

Fred said "    SparkyJones said "    Fred said "... all the people defending the mental illness defense to face the family and friends of the people who got killed and tell them to their faces in a locked room.Wait an hour or so and if people got killed in that room it's ok.The family was "temporarily insane" because they were stricken with grief and you defended the murderer right in front of them.I dare you... " This feller isn't 'temporarily insane' friend. He schizophrenic. Pull your head out of your a**.... I dare you " If you paid attention to what i said you would have noticed that all i wanted to do is at least mention the fact that there is a lot more tragedy going on than the fact that the murderer is schizophrenic.In fact 5 families (and friends) lives were devastated by this and i only wanted you and others to pay more attention to the hell they are going through right now.   In fact the families of the deceased weren't even mentioned until we get to post # 22 by "theunknown" headline:"not an attack on mental illness".   Mental illness needs to be dealt with but never forget the victims and their families! "

I like reading you. I totally agree with you on this.

sharing a new Video - telling us whats next  
 
http://www.calgarysun.com/videos/4911969913001  
 
another one - but will this happen??  
 
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6690017-calgary-s-vampire-killer-faces-life-in-a-psychiatric-hospital/  
 
Edited by whatthewhat, 2016-05-31 16:03:33

I can post three times as many facts on mental illness and the different types, for you closed minded. Read, educate and remember it is the justice system that set the sentence.  
 
But, as for posting links, it is so easy to just google "mental illness|, I would like to find the links on Mayo Clinic and WebMB to start.  
 
Please keep an open mind on mental illness, my world just crashed down around me today and I am not sure I even have the energy left to fight for the love I have and want to keep! So hard on all family. Or if I even have the energy to keep fighting this illness.  
 
Edited by Brenda, 2016-05-31 18:19:43

whatthewhat said "    Enfyre said "    zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. " I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.     If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.     That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault. " Did you read the link I provided??? It says they did 2 Psyche evaluations - and he was found able to stand on Trial - his parents tried to say he was mentally unstable, yet a Psychologist found TWICE that he was capable of sitting on Trial - so what is the true message being sent out now???     Yeah - it seems like he had NO diagnosis before hand - chose to grab the knife, chose to slash people, then walked over to someone sitting on the couch, after he rationalized that they could identify him, chose to walk upstairs, and kill the guy sleeping - no one was threatening him - he CHOSE all his actions - can recall his thoughts - has a Daddy that works in the Legal Field, who tosses out this "God told me too" blame game commentary - and this is OK with you??? He planned for this - that is INTENT my friend. That means GUILT - what don't you understand??? Have you read the links I have posted??? I can post them again - if you need help with that. "

I followed the trial as well.  
Being able to stand trial means he was no longer in a psychotic state. Immediately after his arrest he was placed on anti-psychotic medication, and as a result was found able to stand trial over a month later. The "true message" being sent out there was that the medication was working.  
 
Schizophrenic episodes doesnt always result in amnesia.  
 
Schizophrenia causes hallucinations and effects ones view of reality, not their ability to take actions, make decisions, or rationalize things all in their warped or completely deluded sense of what's real.  
 
Your conspiracy theory about his dad is just unsubstantiated speculation.

Enfyre said "    whatthewhat said "    Enfyre said "    zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. " I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.     If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.     That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault. " Did you read the link I provided??? It says they did 2 Psyche evaluations - and he was found able to stand on Trial - his parents tried to say he was mentally unstable, yet a Psychologist found TWICE that he was capable of sitting on Trial - so what is the true message being sent out now???     Yeah - it seems like he had NO diagnosis before hand - chose to grab the knife, chose to slash people, then walked over to someone sitting on the couch, after he rationalized that they could identify him, chose to walk upstairs, and kill the guy sleeping - no one was threatening him - he CHOSE all his actions - can recall his thoughts - has a Daddy that works in the Legal Field, who tosses out this "God told me too" blame game commentary - and this is OK with you??? He planned for this - that is INTENT my friend. That means GUILT - what don't you understand??? Have you read the links I have posted??? I can post them again - if you need help with that. " I followed the trial as well.   Being able to stand trial means he was no longer in a psychotic state. Immediately after his arrest he was placed on anti-psychotic medication, and as a result was found able to stand trial over a month later. The "true message" being sent out there was that the medication was working.     Schizophrenic episodes doesnt always result in amnesia.     Schizophrenia causes hallucinations and effects ones view of reality, not their ability to take actions, make decisions, or rationalize things all in their warped or completely deluded sense of what's real.     Your conspiracy theory about his dad is just unsubstantiated speculation. "

If you want to start throwing the "unsubstantiated speculation" dart towards me now - I must say that your comments too are mere "speculation'. And the term "what's real" too is based on your Values, morals, ehtics and beliefs. So what you refer to as "Real" may not be "Real" to me - but I am glad the medication is working - I also wonder why if his parents/co workers noticed something was amiss with him, why did no one approach him and ask to take him in to some doctor??? Are they now also liable/accomplices?  
 
See, there are many variables to consider here - and I still believe this Trial needs be be heard again. I would be appealing the ruling, if I was the parent of one of the children killed. But that is just my state of mind/realism to me.  
 
You do not need to agree with me. I appreciate reading you - and its great to see some one else is also following this case. Thanks for your imput.

Enfyre said "    whatthewhat said "    Enfyre said "    zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. " I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.     If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.     That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault. " Did you read the link I provided??? It says they did 2 Psyche evaluations - and he was found able to stand on Trial - his parents tried to say he was mentally unstable, yet a Psychologist found TWICE that he was capable of sitting on Trial - so what is the true message being sent out now???     Yeah - it seems like he had NO diagnosis before hand - chose to grab the knife, chose to slash people, then walked over to someone sitting on the couch, after he rationalized that they could identify him, chose to walk upstairs, and kill the guy sleeping - no one was threatening him - he CHOSE all his actions - can recall his thoughts - has a Daddy that works in the Legal Field, who tosses out this "God told me too" blame game commentary - and this is OK with you??? He planned for this - that is INTENT my friend. That means GUILT - what don't you understand??? Have you read the links I have posted??? I can post them again - if you need help with that. " I followed the trial as well.   Being able to stand trial means he was no longer in a psychotic state. Immediately after his arrest he was placed on anti-psychotic medication, and as a result was found able to stand trial over a month later. The "true message" being sent out there was that the medication was working.     Schizophrenic episodes doesnt always result in amnesia.     Schizophrenia causes hallucinations and effects ones view of reality, not their ability to take actions, make decisions, or rationalize things all in their warped or completely deluded sense of what's real.     Your conspiracy theory about his dad is just unsubstantiated speculation. "

After his arrest he was put on medication.  
So, he was not on medication when this incident happened, therefore not of sound mind and in a pyshotic state. So after the medication he was able to stand trial, but the incident did not happen after he was fit to stand trial, it happened before.  
 
You still need to research schizophrenia more.  
It completely and 100% does affect actions,  
decisions, etc.  
 
I will help you a bit with a link:  
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/problem/consequences-of-non-treatment/schizophrenia  
 
http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/default.htm  
 
 
and I would search the Mayo Clinic if I were you.

Ever had a nightmare that felt real? Glad it was just a nightmare, right? A psychotic episode is just that. It''s a period of time where someone is litteraly detached from reality. From reading this thread, I know this is difficult for a lot of people to beleive. For DeGrout, there was no waking up as this nightmare was reality. You want to lay blame somewhere, somehow for the psychotic episode as if someone knew for sure it was going to happen and knew that he was a killer in waiting. The truth is....nobody knew he was capable of such an atrocity, not him, not his parents or friends. Events, situations in his life led to the psychosis. I''m not sure what the triggers were, but there were some for sure.  
I''m pretty sure that those close to him saw the changes in his behaviour, maybe a little more negative towards life, maybe paranoia, etc. I wouldn''t doubt that those close to him approached him and delicately discussed their concerns. It''s not easy telling a friend or loved one that you see them spiraling downward and they should see their doctor, Psychiatrist. I would think that this discussion likely took place though. DeGrout (probably a proud individual at that time) likely thought that he could handle whatever stressors he had in his life and that things would get better. Often one feels shame and guilt in admitting to being mentally ill as the stigma surrounding mental illness is real and this thread more than justifies this beleif. I'' lll throw in another tragedy here, the young mother (Lisa Gibson) in Winnipeg that drowned her kids and then killed herself. This is another tragedy created by psychosis. Did she willfully kill her kids of sound mind? Did Degrout kill of sound mind? The question is.... Should we lock up individuals who commit a crime when they were in a psychotic state, even if it was their first time experiencing psychosis? You obviously think, "yes"! I have to ask you then and please answer. How would locking up an individual that committed a crime when experiencing a first psychotic episode teach them or society a lesson? Remember that our penal system is designed to punish individuals for wrong doings. It''s like being punished for your actions committed while in a nightmare.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-06-02 08:33:24

70`s guy said "Ever had a nightmare that felt real? Glad it was just a nightmare, right? A psychotic episode is just that. It''s a period of time where someone is litteraly detached from reality. From reading this thread, I know this is difficult for a lot of people to beleive. For DeGrout, there was no waking up as this nightmare was reality. You want to lay blame somewhere, somehow for the psychotic episode as if someone knew for sure it was going to happen and knew that he was a killer in waiting. The truth is....nobody knew he was capable of such an atrocity, not him, not his parents or friends. Events, situations in his life led to the psychosis. I''m not sure what the triggers were, but there were some for sure.   I''m pretty sure that those close to him saw the changes in his behaviour, maybe a little more negative towards life, maybe paranoia, etc. I wouldn''t doubt that those close to him approached him and delicately discussed their concerns. It''s not easy telling a friend or loved one that you see them spiraling downward and they should see their doctor, Psychiatrist. I would think that this discussion likely took place though. DeGrout (probably a proud individual at that time) likely thought that he could handle whatever stressors he had in his life and that things would get better. Often one feels shame and guilt in admitting to being mentally ill as the stigma surrounding mental illness is real and this thread more than justifies this beleif. I'' lll throw in another tragedy here, the young mother (Lisa Gibson) in Winnipeg that drowned her kids and then killed herself. This is another tragedy created by psychosis. Did she willfully kill her kids of sound mind? Did Degrout kill of sound mind? The question is.... Should we lock up individuals who commit a crime when they were in a psychotic state, even if it was their first time experiencing psychosis? You obviously think, "yes"! I have to ask you then and please answer. How would locking up an individual that committed a crime when experiencing a first psychotic episode teach them or society a lesson? Remember that our penal system is designed to punish individuals for wrong doings. It''s like being punished for your actions committed while in a nightmare.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-06-02 08:33:24"

Great post! Some people will still be very closed minded, but you are bang on!