Discussions

I’m sure that an additional 1700 students in 10 years has nothing to do with BSD’s needs.  
FYI, BSD is still one of the lowest cost per student school divisions in Manitoba.

I might have to vote Conservative again!  
 
Seriously though, who else was tired of BSD socking it to us taxpayers and then announcing that they had a surplus, what, three years in a row?  
 
Increased cost because of immigration? Lobby Trudeau!

One of the lowest cost per student divisions in Manitoba!  
 
That sounds like our division is doing a great job.  
 
Yes we have had an explosion of immigrants.  
 
If your solution is to ignore the needs of Brandon’s immigrant population, World history is pretty clear on what happens to crime rates when an immigrant population goes uneducated.

loeog said "One of the lowest cost per student divisions in Manitoba!     That sounds like our division is doing a great job.     Yes we have had an explosion of immigrants.     If your solution is to ignore the needs of Brandon’s immigrant population, World history is pretty clear on what happens to crime rates when an immigrant population goes uneducated. "

is doing a great job? Of what? Fleecing us every single year? lol  
 
I hardly think that our immigrant population is suffering! I think they are doing quite well.

Johnbisonbear said "I might have to vote Conservative again!     Seriously though, who else was tired of BSD socking it to us taxpayers and then announcing that they had a surplus, what, three years in a row?     Increased cost because of immigration? Lobby Trudeau! "

Did BSD think they could just keep raising taxes so much forever? How fiscally irresponsible! They need to stop whining and start really crunching numbers. It is their time to show us what they can really do and how smart they really are!  
 
Lobby Trudeau! LOL.

What did BSD do with the surplus cash over the years?  
Already spent or sitting in the bank?

The reaction from the chair Linda Ross has me suspecting they were going to be more than 2% before the announcement.  
 
Kudos to the education minister for recognizing an issue and standing up for taxpayers.

is whatever they want. Finally we have a government who is thinking of the taxpayer's financial hardships.

You want them to go from one of the cheapest per student to the absolute bottom.  
 
I think people with children or grandchildren in the system might start thinking about leaving Brandon, because being the lowest cost is not something to be proud of.  
 
We average 170 new students a year, when that new school opens in 4!years, it will also be full..... I forgot, that new school’s funding was also cut.  
 
Did you know, those great guys in Wpg have also given Brandon a solution to the new students and overcrowding. The solution was always right under our noses, those great people in Wpg removed the classroom size cap.  
 
Last I heard, schools in Brandon have the green light to start hallway education. The Conservatives say hallway medical treatment is working and Brandon should give it a try in Education.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2018-02-09 22:19:48

loeog said "You want them to go from one of the cheapest per student to the absolute bottom.     I think people with children or grandchildren in the system might start thinking about leaving Brandon, because being the lowest cost is not something to be proud of.     We average 170 new students a year, when that new school opens in 4!years, it will also be full..... I forgot, that new school’s funding was also cut.     Did you know, those great guys in Wpg have also given Brandon a solution to the new students and overcrowding. The solution was always right under our noses, those great people in Wpg removed the classroom size cap.     Last I heard, schools in Brandon have the green light to start hallway education. The Conservatives say hallway medical treatment is working and Brandon should give it a try in Education.     Edited by loeog, 2018-02-09 22:19:48"

Sounds like you're OK being at the mercy of BSD's 'authority to tax' as long as its in the name of quality education.  
 
Do you think a larger budget correlates directly with quality? Is there any evidence all of the increases every.year have helped?  
 
I dont believe the education minister coming down with this challenge is totally unfounded

Sounds like you don’t have children in the education system.  
 
Brandon is one of the lowest cost divisions going.  
 
Brandon has overcrowded schools.  
 
Brandon has one of the fastest growing school populations.  
 
Brandon has huge numbers of immigrants.  
 
Brandon has a very high population of children with low income parents.  
 
I’m sorry you think people in Winnipeg will manage Brandon’s school system better.  
 
Personally, BSD has done an amazing job balancing Brandon’s educational needs and keeping the cost per student very low.

Brandon close and sell a couple of older schools? Fleming, if I'm not mistaken? It probably would have been best to keep those schools functional. I would love to drive a brand new Ford F-150 but due to finances I'm going to have to keep driving my 2009 Honda Accord.  
 
I was also pleased that the provincial government will be negotiating with teachers on one contract for all teachers instead of 38 separate contracts. That is a positive step.  
 
My sister is a teacher. We have some good discussions.

You drive a pretty new car compared to what your asking.  
Trade that 2009 for a truck built in 1914 and add 1956 fenders, then you can talk about Fleming.

loeog said "You drive a pretty new car compared to what your asking.   Trade that 2009 for a truck built in 1914 and add 1956 fenders, then you can talk about Fleming. "

because Fleming is old, it was no good? Is it good enough for those who bought it? I don't get this mentality. Keeping it under BSD would have alleviated some of the demand for classroom space, would it not have. Who cares if it was built in 1914. Space is space. A classroom is a classroom.

to the education minister and the Conservative government. This move has been long, long overdue.  
 
Anyone that thinks that throwing more money at the problem will solve it simply isn't dealing with the realities that we face today.  
 
Both our education and health care systems need to be seriously dissected starting with the bureaucratic messes they both currently have.

I know I've posted this before in a different thread, but I'll mention it again. Those who are questioning the selling of Flemming, back when there were public consultations a few years ago regarding realigning school catchments and procuring portables, that exact question was asked.  
 
The answer the school division gave was that the selling of Flemming was set in motion prior to, or just at the cusp of the immigration increase. Every student population projection that had been coming across their desk for years said that the student population would decrease, not increase (which would be the trend for the majority of school division in this province... only a handful have actual growth). It was a decision that made sense at the time, and once they realized that the situation had changed it was too late.  
 
Hindsight is always 20/20.  
 
Also, I don't think it's fair to blame the current governement for overcrowding. The NDP sat on the request for a new school for years and years and did nothing except promise to build it (but then didn't). Even in Winnipeg they are encountering similar problems... it was in the news recently that in Sage Creek, where they actually built a new school which opened this past fall, it opened over-capacity because they neglected to build it big enough. These are problems that are decades in the making, not a couple of years.  
 
And finally, where are the tax dollars that the new immigrants are bringing to offset some of their expenses when it comes to schooling? Logially, the population of Brandon has increased, creating a bigger tax base. So why isn't that enough to keep pace with the increased costs of doing school due to population growth? I realize that EAL kids cost more, but hasn't the number slowed down in recent years? Most of these kids from the big immigration boom will have intergrated by now and speak fluent English. Why so much expense?

DarMar said "to the education minister and the Conservative government. This move has been long, long overdue.     Anyone that thinks that throwing more money at the problem will solve it simply isn't dealing with the realities that we face today.     Both our education and health care systems need to be seriously dissected starting with the bureaucratic messes they both currently have. "

Yes, mostly I agree.  
 
But...  
Mr. Wiishart is also looking at how the education system is funded.  
 
Mr. Wishart has only invited big business to the table for that discussion, not that I totally disagree with looking at funding, but big business and farmers are tired of paying for Education. Lookout city tax payers.  
 
Mr. Wishart is a professional lobbyist that got elected. Mr. Wishart will need a job when he leaves politics.  
 
If Mr. Wishart''s mandate :i:ncludes lowering big business's share of the education tax, guess who is going to pay.  
 
Yes, I think BSD is doing a good job..  
No, I don''t think Mr. Wishart''s plan is going to benefit the common tax payer as much as it will benefit big business.  
 
School tax to the common tax payer isn''t going down, but Taxes to conservative voting big business will... and that''s his plan.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2018-02-10 12:09:22

Abbysmum said "I know I've posted this before in a different thread, but I'll mention it again. Those who are questioning the selling of Flemming, back when there were public consultations a few years ago regarding realigning school catchments and procuring portables, that exact question was asked.     The answer the school division gave was that the selling of Flemming was set in motion prior to, or just at the cusp of the immigration increase. Every student population projection that had been coming across their desk for years said that the student population would decrease, not increase (which would be the trend for the majority of school division in this province... only a handful have actual growth). It was a decision that made sense at the time, and once they realized that the situation had changed it was too late.     Hindsight is always 20/20.     Also, I don't think it's fair to blame the current governement for overcrowding. The NDP sat on the request for a new school for years and years and did nothing except promise to build it (but then didn't). Even in Winnipeg they are encountering similar problems... it was in the news recently that in Sage Creek, where they actually built a new school which opened this past fall, it opened over-capacity because they neglected to build it big enough. These are problems that are decades in the making, not a couple of years.     And finally, where are the tax dollars that the new immigrants are bringing to offset some of their expenses when it comes to schooling? Logially, the population of Brandon has increased, creating a bigger tax base. So why isn't that enough to keep pace with the increased costs of doing school due to population growth? I realize that EAL kids cost more, but hasn't the number slowed down in recent years? Most of these kids from the big immigration boom will have intergrated by now and speak fluent English. Why so much expense? "

for the well thought out reply. I don't know everything about the situation, and I thank you for the clarification you provided, especially regarding Fleming.

loeog said "    DarMar said "to the education minister and the Conservative government. This move has been long, long overdue.     Anyone that thinks that throwing more money at the problem will solve it simply isn't dealing with the realities that we face today.     Both our education and health care systems need to be seriously dissected starting with the bureaucratic messes they both currently have. " Yes, mostly I agree.     But...   Mr. Wiishart is also looking at how the education system is funded.     Mr. Wishart has only invited big business to the table for that discussion, not that I totally disagree with looking at funding, but big business and farmers are tired of paying for Education. Lookout city tax payers.     Mr. Wishart is a professional lobbyist that got elected. Mr. Wishart will need a job when he leaves politics.     If Mr. Wishart''s mandate :i:ncludes lowering big business's share of the education tax, guess who is going to pay.     Yes, I think BSD is doing a good job..   No, I don''t think Mr. Wishart''s plan is going to benefit the common tax payer as much as it will benefit big business.     School tax to the common tax payer isn''t going down, but Taxes to conservative voting big business will... and that''s his plan.     Edited by loeog, 2018-02-10 12:09:22"

do a lot of speculating. I would rather deal with facts. Who cares if Wishart was a lobbyist before becoming an MLA.  
 
What has he said to make you think he will lower big business share of education tax?

Possibly that Brandon has a low cost per student may because Brandon has next to zero transportation cost compared to all the rural divisions or could be because or the higher population can have 20 or more students per grade but in rural may have 3 grades with 12 students.  
 
Please do not quote numbers as facts or justification as for every fact or justification there is just as many facts and numbers that can prove you wrong. Obviously you are a teacher or a board member or you would not put forth numbers which mean very little. Per cent increase is what is relevant. 2% of a house in Rossburn (as example) is a whole lot less than a 2% increase in a house in Brandon.

I agree, numbers are just that. There is always a story behind them

The only school division that needs to be controlled by the Province. Most division Board members are past teachers, or people whom have worked for Government agencies, that have never had to create a profit to produce their own income. They think nothing of approving teachers ridiculous salary requests. When was the last time that Manitoba's teachers have walked the picket line? Teachers are very important to our youth's personal growth and life long success, but they have to acknowledge where their income is derived. The tax paying public cannot sustain the increasing demands placed on them by Municipalities and school divisions. Both groups need to be looking at cost controls within their organizations. Not just increases in taxes.

Hi. I’m one of the nine BSD trustees. It’s great to see people paying such close attention to this year’s BSD budget. With provincial funding announced at the end of the week, our BSD staff are still putting together numbers for the preliminary budget presentation on Monday evening, but since it’s late and I was up late refreshing my own memory by reading through budget documents, I thought I would jump in and answer a few questions.  
 
These are entirely my own personal thoughts and I do not speak on behalf of the board of trustees. Most of the information I’m providing is straight from the FRAME reports published by the province that can be found at the following link: http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/finance/frame_report/index.html I’ll refer to the 2015/16 report on actual spending, which is the most recent report available for actual spending. The only 2016/77 and 2017/18 reports are on budgets, which report planned and not actual spending. I’m not here to debate, but to offer data relevant to some of the earlier posts. I hope that this data might provide some clarity to this discussion.  
 
If you have questions about the info I''ve i:ncluded below or any other budget-related inquiries, I’m always happy to answer questions. Please feel free to email them to sumner.kevan@bsd.ca  
 
Regarding where BSD stands in cost per student, in 2016/17 we spent the 7th lowest amount ($10,971) per student out of 36 divisions. If you look back to the earliest FRAME report available online for the 1997/98 school year, the cost per student has increased at an average of about 4% per year. This is comparable with other divisions and one of the strongest drivers of this cost increase other than inflation has probably been the trend towards smaller class sizes across the province. In 1997/98, there were 19.7 students for every regular instruction employee and 16.0 students per educator in BSD. In 2016/17, those ratios were 17.2 and 12.9 respectively. Provincially across all division, the ratios were in 18.7 and 15.3 in 1997/98 and 16.7 and 13.1 in 2016/17.  
 
For those wondering, the regular instruction ratio i:ncludes teachers in physical education, music, ESL, etc, in addition to regular classroom teachers. The educator ratio i:ncludes department heads, coordinators, principals and vice-principals, but excludes division administrators.  
 
In terms of where BSD is broadly spending money compared to the provincial average of all divisions, the following is a comparison using the expenditure areas (or functions) that the province uses.  
Regular Instruction  
BSD: 59.8%  
Provincial: 55.8%  
Student Support Services  
BSD: 21.2%  
Provincial: 18.4%  
Adult Learning Centres  
BSD: 0%  
Provincial: 0.5%  
Community Education and Services  
BSD: 0.3%  
Provincial: 1.1%  
Divisional Administration:  
BSD: 3.3%  
Provincial: 3.5%  
Instructional and Other Support Services  
BSD: 3.0%  
Provincial: 3.4%  
Transportation of Pupils:  
BSD: 2.4%  
Provincial: 4.3%  
Operations and Maintenace:  
BSD: 8.3%  
Province: 11.4%  
Fiscal  
BSD: 1.7%  
Province: 1.7%  
 
Someone mentioned Brandon’s tax base in comparison to Rossburn’s. Within BSD, our assessment (the value of property being taxed) per pupil in 2015/16 was $332,491 per resident pupil, which was 21st highest in the province, and below the provincial average of $379.006. Park West, where Rossburn is located, has assessment of $413,176 per pupil.  
 
Another contributor to the discussion asked what BSD has done with surplus cash. We are required by the province to hold an accumulated surplus of no more than 4% of our annual budget. Anything in excess of that is usually allocated to capital reserves. Last year our surplus, which comes as a result of what I consider to be prudent fiscal management during the year, was allocated to a school bus capital reserve that can be used to purchase school busses in upcoming years rather than purchasing them from our regular budgets.  
 
I look forward to some busy weeks ahead, as the board works towards approving a budget in early March. I hope that this information and budget details that are published as the budget process moves forward will encourage community members to attend the public budget consultation forum at 7pm on Thursday, February 15th at Green Acres School. After the board''s budget deliberations on the 20th, the public also has the opportunity to make presentations on our proposed budget at our regular board meeting at 7pm on Monday, February 26th at the Division Office boardroom.  
 
You may also want to check out last year's BSD budget presentations for more informtion, tables, graphs explaining where we were at this time last year. New presentations for this year's budget will be available in the weeks ahead.  
https://www.bsd.ca/Documents/2017-2018%20Preliminary%20Budget%20Presentation.pdf  
https://www.bsd.ca/Documents/February%2015%20Budget%20Consultation%20Forum.pdf  
 
Edited by Kevan Sumner, 2018-02-11 02:54:05

What I said was saying is 2% increase in School Taxes of a house in a rural Manitoba is much less than a 2% increase for a house in Brandon. I realize there are other factors that effect this such as large farm assessment and industry etc in Brandon. That is not what I had indicated.  
 
Regular instruction is the biggest part of all budgets and by your number Brandon is a fair bit higher than the provincial average which is concerning.  
 
Again numbers are numbers and because there are no divisions in Manitoba that are similar to Brandon the provincial numbers do not make a whole lot of sense. For example, if you eliminated Winnipeg from those numbers there would be a drastic change. Could look better for Bdn or maybe not.

12jake said "What I said was saying is 2% increase in School Taxes of a house in a rural Manitoba is much less than a 2% increase for a house in Brandon. I realize there are other factors that effect this such as large farm assessment and industry etc in Brandon. That is not what I had indicated.     Regular instruction is the biggest part of all budgets and by your number Brandon is a fair bit higher than the provincial average which is concerning.     Again numbers are numbers and because there are no divisions in Manitoba that are similar to Brandon the provincial numbers do not make a whole lot of sense. For example, if you eliminated Winnipeg from those numbers there would be a drastic change. Could look better for Bdn or maybe not. "

While BSD's % on regular instruction spending is higher than the provincial average, you have to remember that it's a slightly higher percentage in a division that spends much less than average per student. If you look on page 29 of the 2015/16 FRAME report, you will see that Brandon still spends the 5th lowest per student on regular instruction ($6,583) of all 36 divisions.

While the numbers look good as presented here,how did this result in an 8.8% increase in the BSD budget for many of the last few years?  
And how was this increase believed to be sustainable?

Sounds impressive but how do we stack up against other divisions that spend the most? What extra resources or supports do those divisions have access to? Less isn't always better? Why such huge tax increases then when we are one of the lowest spending school divisions per student? My child needs help with reading but isn't the lowest scorer to qualify for the reading recovery program so I have to pay out of pocket for private tutoring! Kind of a slap to the face when you pay taxes to the hilt year after year and your own kid can't even get access to a program! I pay huge taxes and think anyone needing help learning to read shouldn't be turned away from a valuable reading program which sets the tone for the bulk of their education! I'm told funding is only for so many and people rotate in and out of the program as needed. School told me Brandon school division sets funding and spots for reading recovery programs. So bsd asks for more and more but isn't even doing a good job with the funding they currently have. Sustain what you have and put more money into learning instead of a giant wish list with not much bang for your bucket for the actual students! Need a NEW board elected stat!

Abracadabra said "Sounds impressive but how do we stack up against other divisions that spend the most? What extra resources or supports do those divisions have access to? Less isn't always better? Why such huge tax increases then when we are one of the lowest spending school divisions per student? My child needs help with reading but isn't the lowest scorer to qualify for the reading recovery program so I have to pay out of pocket for private tutoring! Kind of a slap to the face when you pay taxes to the hilt year after year and your own kid can't even get access to a program! I pay huge taxes and think anyone needing help learning to read shouldn't be turned away from a valuable reading program which sets the tone for the bulk of their education! I'm told funding is only for so many and people rotate in and out of the program as needed. School told me Brandon school division sets funding and spots for reading recovery programs. So bsd asks for more and more but isn't even doing a good job with the funding they currently have. Sustain what you have and put more money into learning instead of a giant wish list with not much bang for your bucket for the actual students! Need a NEW board elected stat! "

Elections are in October. Start planning your platform for election as trustee.

standard standard h8r said "    Abracadabra said "Sounds impressive but how do we stack up against other divisions that spend the most? What extra resources or supports do those divisions have access to? Less isn't always better? Why such huge tax increases then when we are one of the lowest spending school divisions per student? My child needs help with reading but isn't the lowest scorer to qualify for the reading recovery program so I have to pay out of pocket for private tutoring! Kind of a slap to the face when you pay taxes to the hilt year after year and your own kid can't even get access to a program! I pay huge taxes and think anyone needing help learning to read shouldn't be turned away from a valuable reading program which sets the tone for the bulk of their education! I'm told funding is only for so many and people rotate in and out of the program as needed. School told me Brandon school division sets funding and spots for reading recovery programs. So bsd asks for more and more but isn't even doing a good job with the funding they currently have. Sustain what you have and put more money into learning instead of a giant wish list with not much bang for your bucket for the actual students! Need a NEW board elected stat! " Elections are in October. Start planning your platform for election as trustee. "

come on. Show some empathy. Someone wants the best for their child and that is what you come up with? How rude.