Discussions

Hi everyone,  
 
Just wondering what everyone's opinions are on the yellow vest movement sweeping France, and now beginning to show up all over Canada?  
 
A large group of us have organized a convoy from Virden to Brandon on the 5th of January. These are people who believe and demand real change to the political system in Canada.  
 
Given the fact this movement is starting to happen at home, i'm just curious to hear other peoples opinions on it.  
 
Apologize in advance if this inst allowed, but here is a link to the Facebook event.  
https://www.facebook.com/events/271572663518359  
 
We have also put an event on the events tab within Ebrandon.  
https://ebrandon.ca/event.aspx?event_id=46840  
 
Look forward to hearing what peoples opinions are on this issue. Hope everyone had a good Christmas!

My opinion is that this Canadian group is jumping on a trend whole simultaneously missing the point. The arguments laid out by our version of the "yellow vests" is very different from what the original ones are protesting.  
 
IMO, it's an attempt to normalize some pretty right-wing stances.

What from those points listed are considered right wing by you? We want equality for all Canadians.  
 
I agree the push in Canada is much different then in France. It's the underlying message of the people being fed up with the status quo that resonates with the group. The rise of the individual tax payer saying they are not happy with the way our money is being spent.  
 
To be honest, this isn't a liberal vs conservative thing. It's both parties that have failed us.

Instead of being "anti-" a number of points, why not try being for something? The world is not black/white, but one of the problems with our political systems today is the whole "We're good/they're bad" positioning that is applied to everything. This paralyzes discourse and reduces any thought to a binary decision. Instead, why not explain what aspects you wish to promote - ie. how much immigration, what should the tax level be (and what should we as taxpayers pay for out of our taxes, how much immigration we can support, etc. My concern is, with open-ended vague promises, any result is possible. For example, no immigration because we can't support any, cut taxes to the point we erode the social net because we can't pay for it, and so on.

It's the anti immigration portions that'd I'd consider right-wing, for the most part. Your list isn't too bad, but the national Facebook page says:  
 
"This group is to protest the CARBON TAX and the Treason of our country’s politicians who have the audacity to sell out OUR country’s sovereignty over to the Globalist UN and their Tyrannical policies.”  
 
That kind of language is pretty extreme, in my opinion.

Is the opposite of "progressive liberalism" (and thus the target of these protests) "regressive conservatism"? If so, what does that mean? It's great to be against something, but somewhat useless unless your position is set forth. Otherwise, just like children saying to each other "I know you are, but what am I"?  
 
The world is changing, and trying to regress into the fondly-remembered past isn't realistic. Times have changed, and we have to change with them.

I'm curious to know what the Yellow Vest movement proposes as an alternative to equalization payments. They are problematic at best - it shifts resource riches from the West to the East and is part of a larger paternalistic attitude Eastern Canada has towards the Prairies - but in places like Manitoba we're also the beneficairies of these payments. I can understand this sentiment in Alberta (where this movement seems to have started) but how does this apply to places like Manitoba?

It's also very right wing in that it basically wants government to butt out. They can argue it's for the "benefit of all Canadians", but left wing people can also make that claim. It's simply the manner in which they think those benefits should take the form of.  
 
Disclaimer: I vote across the political spectrum and consider myself centrist.

Do you believe a simple tax is the solution to climate change? Why must we pay for other countries pollution? Will this face force companies to reduce their emission or will this only force companies to do business else where?  
 
In Canada we have very strict laws and regulations on our energy sector. Make Canada one of the cleanest producers in all of the world. I believe we need a market that is competitive which will find solutions to make energy even more efficient. If we had more energy companies developing technology that focused on creating more efficient products over time that will reduce overall consumption.  
 
Taxing people more and more only reduces their buying power. We have seen this government give exemptions to large energy consumers and nothing to small business owners. This tax will only effect the end users. Maybe tax incentives for green vehicles, furnaces ect would be something to look at.  
 
As for the UN Compact for Migration, I would encourage all to read the document we have signed onto. Our biggest issues is that we have an outside organization pushing their values and beliefs on this country without consulting the people. Will the UN fund all the refugees we bring over, I dont think so. This burden will be left for the tax payers to pick up. Have you seen the debt we are incurring over the illegal immigration we currently have? Who's going to be left to pay for all of this?  
 
Look at our current education and health care systems, they are falling apart. Schools are at max capacity and the quality of education is not there anymore. Try getting immediate health care services when something terrible happens to you.  
 
We don't have all the answers, but at least we are willing to have these conversations with people without being scrutinized. All the services we have like education, healthcare, welfare, pensions ect are funded by the people and spent by the government foolishly.  
 
Is all this debt what we want to leave our children and future generations?

Right there is the problem with this "solution", and our system in general (this "solution" will just perpetuate the problem). Instead of seeking solutions on their own merit (ie. what works best to solve a problem/take advantage of an opportunity), we package a bunch of ideas/policies together and call it a "political party". This party vs party BS is what got us here - lets professional politicians hide behind party politics while nothing happens. Eliminate political parties, send independents to Ottawa, and hold them accountable for solutions that benefit and please the electorate. Everything else is just a reality show.

Where in any of this was there anything on getting rid of our healthcare system? We are not advocating for the removal of this system. What we want is tax money that is being spent in the system to be used in the most effective way that benefits the tax payers.

Definitely a right-wing movement......  
 
 
I'm curious; Exactly how do you propose the electoral system be changed?  
 
How will you "stop illegal immigration"? Build a wall?  
 
The copy I got in my e-mail also called for charging Trudeau as a traitor and something derogator towards Muslims....  
 
I laughed a lot and then deleted the message.

Electoral system.  
Give the west more power. Take GDP into effect when balancing the scales. Ontario and Quebec hold all the power which is not fair to western provinces. Politicians pander to large city centers in those two provinces and create policies that help them the most.  
 
Illegal Immigration.  
Close third safe country loophole. All immigrants must enter Canada through the proper channels with the proper paperwork. There is no need for a wall. This loophole allows people to enter Canada ahead of those trying to enter legally which is unfair. This influx bottle necks the process and costs us a fortune.

It’s far bigger than most want to believe. I view this as a part of a global problem, not going to argue the fact that we are over taxed, and political parties have not done anything to address spending, regardless of political stripes, but we let it happen, and most times encouraged it.  
If I were to look around the world at capitalist, communist, socialist or dictatorship governments, and their countries or economies, and consider them a patient, I would be inclined to consider them all terminal. Three years ago the world economies were worried about deflation, the election of Donald Trump provided a sugar high to the globe, but that has now run its course. History has proven that at certain points of population, production, and available money supply, there is a movement toward nationalist thinking, and globally we are at that point.  
Many years ago a commodity broker told me “when looking at the forest, do not get distracted by the trees”, when you listen to financial experts today they are all focused on the trees and try to blame the situation on seperate factors, while ignoring the idea of production and concentration of wealth.  
Hopefully I’m wrong.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2018-12-26 20:26:36

I dare say that this is an opportunistic attempt to latch onto the 'Yellow Vest' brand, and an attempt to twist that branding to serve an almost completely different political agenda here.  
 
A proposed gas price hike was the spark in France. But make no mistake, the price of gas in France (and in many other developed countries that aren't Canada) is already substantially higher than here. In the city of Narbonne, which has a population of about 50k (which I figured is a fair approximation of here population-wise) a litre of gas is $2.09 CAD (It's about $2.50 in Paris).  
 
But the heart of the dissatisfaction stems from what the working class view as a political betrayal. Whatever you think about Trudeau, and how often he's messed up and done the wrong thing, he did not do what Emmanuel Macron attempted to do, which was to cut the nation's Solidarity Tax of Wealth (ISF), a tax that only affects those with more than €1.3m (About $2m) of stuff so that it only affected real estate while -at the same time- trying to implement the gas tax.  
 
Basically, the general populace got angry because Macron attempted to implement a scheme which would enable the rich to get richer while passing the burden on to everyone else.  
 
The Yellow Vest movement in France isn't about immigration or a carbon tax, is is about a widening disparity between the wealthy and the working class and poor.  
 
This isn't to say there aren't individuals there who also haven't tried to spin it for their own political agenda (anti-immigration, anti-gay, etc.) but for the common person it's about money and maintaining their social programs.  
 
Shame on you for your borderline-nationalist immigration fear-mongering, and for trying to rile up dissatisfaction without offering any solutions.

Our electoral system is flawed. Trudeau wanted to change it but realized it would do more harm to his current reign so he scrapped that. Google first passed the post voting and gerrymandering. The electoral system is flawed.

I am a nationalist, a proud one too.  
 
What's wrong with that?  
 
Edited by BradZ, 2018-12-26 21:30:27

is the past. If we as a species are to survive, we need to come together, not concentrate in nation groups to conflict with other nation groups. Nationalism is based on fear of the foreign.

You''re attempting to use nationalism as a tool to play at identity politics.  
 
I get that you''re angry about the state of things. I''m angry about the state of things. But you''re proposing change without actually offering a clear alternative plan, and you''re trying to malign an entire social class in the process.  
 
At face value this doesn''t exactly engender a whole lot of faith in the nobility of your particular cause.  
 
Edited by Hashidoi, 2018-12-26 22:37:59

While I understand many of the frustrations that are leading to the yellow vest movement, I personally have a different take on things.  
 
I feel that more needs to be done to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. We need to increase funding for research and development of green/carbon neutral energy tech while reducing our production of oil/gas. Perhaps giving large tax incentives to green initiatives while levying higher taxes on petroleum could help make that progress happen. There could also be a subsidized retraining program to help those who work in the energy sector learn the knowledge and skills to move from oil/gas production to jobs in the green energy sector.  
 
I fully support large scale immigration, I feel that there is little that needs to be changed in regards to our immigration policy and systems. We could perhaps streamline them to avoid some of the delays and bottlenecks that occur. Allowing immigrants into Canada does not degrade our sovereignty.  
 
Free speech is great. You are free to say what ever you wish, however people are not obligated to give you a platform, nor are you free from the consequences of what you say.  
 
We should have election reform, a simple majority vote should suffice. Yes that places more power in the east, but that is where the majority of Canadians live. If you feel that you are not being represented properly take it up with those who represent you.  
 
The current Nationalist movement needs to be reigned in. Nationalism has never worked as a social policy and as far as I am concerned always leads to the repression of minority groups, often based on race, religion, and various mental and physical handicaps.  
 
Yes I know I am liberal, in fact I probably lean a little more to the left when compared to the average liberal. I am hoping that all sides can come to the table to find reasonable solutions to these issues.  
 
The environment should be our main concern. The Intergovernmental panel on climate change has given a timeline of 12 years to drastically alter our energy habits before we suffer irreversible damage.  
 
Time is up. We need to look forward.

We shouldn’t be using carbon based fuels. We have alternatives such as electric vechicles and geothermal heating. It’s cheaper to use. Increase the carbon tax further to speed up the change.  
 
Oil rigs could be used as geothermal drilling rigs. Why not take the lead in the world and make some green money? Canada should be leaders not dinosaurs.

I find all the terms highly subjective. What one person finds “acceptable levels” for immigration, another will not. It lacks clarity.  
Overall, when people just rage and protest with no clearly outlined solution, it makes me think they just want to complain without actually fixing the problem.

The government could take the easy route and just allow immigration based on population, but with economies not always showing growth that idea is something that would be contentious as well.  
I’m a globalist, simply because being in agriculture our survival depends on a world market, and with our country being a resource supplier to the world, one cannot shut doors. Capitalism is a system that is based on competition, and competition is controlled by cost of production, once again we have to look in the mirror when it comes to the cost of production.

are just a lot of Conservative talking points and rallying cries. And because the Prime Minister is not a Conservative. BTW Andrew Scheer is younger than Trudeau by the way 39 vs 47 for Trudeau.  
 
Besides being and insurance broker, what other experience does Scheer have?  
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Scheer?wprov=sfla1

Compact Migration will end our ability to govern our own country, yes it is none binding. That said please do your research on non binding agreements that have lead the Canadian courts to turn into to law.  
 
Issues with Compact  
 
Silence free speech and Jail citizens who speak against compact  
Silence Media and shut down media who speak against Compact  
Migration a human right - Anyone from any country can migrate to Canada and is immediately entitled to be here and entitled to health care, social services, CPP etc.

I just took a look at the site..only read the comments on the first post and never went any further.Reminded me of a pro Trump right wingnut extremist audience.Posters who just spout off and copy and paste other basement dwellers posts. Some try to have an intelligent conversation but the majority seem to be the type who just repeat issues that they are too lazy to look up and verify the facts...it's almost embarrassing to call them Canadians because of their ignorance.  
 
It's a shame they took the Yellow Vest movement and spun it into a joke representation of their beliefs.Now its just a caricature of extremist,too lazy to look up the actual facts troll supporters.  
 
Too bad they don't discuss issues sensibly and in an intelligent manner because their FB representation just comes off as another one of the many immature and childish pages out there that ends up being embarrassing to their cause.

Here are the points I agree with, with commentary on my viewpoint.  
 
1. I oppose the carbon tax, and other taxes based on robbing none offenders of their hard earned money. It will not solve the problem, It simply drives inflation.  
 
If they want to solve the problem, do something that works. Reward people who make good choices. Fine those that don't. Instead of a carbon tax, pass laws with reasonable goals, than fine violators of that law. If they continue to violate shut them down. Why punish everyone?  
Technically I'm not worried about Carbon, or even if its a little warmer. The most productive times in history were warmer. We would be able to adapt and thrive and so would the rest of the planet. The problem is we a scared of change.  
What I am worried about is how we treat the environment. over-usage of chemicals, drugs, that are detectable in some of the most pristine water sources. The ever increasing usage of throw away technology that is only good for a year or two. High meat consumption of our population, which not only serves to make us unhealthy as a population, but also increases drug, chemical and antibodies usages in our food supply, ourselves and our water supply. The over use of plastics. The other for deadly gases we pump into the air. Carbon in my opinion is the least worrisome of all those issues.  
 
2. Promotion of an immigration rate based on the rate immigrants can be successfully integrated into our society. Promotion of immigration that uses background checks that ensure that values of the immigrants remain consistent with Canadian value. Deny immigration to individuals, whose values will actively work against Canadian laws and values. They should be able to vow to keep our laws.  
I would also be for a 10 year probation status before full citizenship is achieved. offenses during that time would be subject to deportation. Full opportunities would be allowed in Job seeking. (they shouldn't be redistricted on where they can work if they are capable of doing the job.) But I would be for a 10 year probation on other citizen rights such as voting... at least 8 years. That would discourage politicians from following immigration policies that select populations most likely to vote for them. Vote once they are integrated and understand more of the culture and society.  
 
3. Free speech... censorship is disgusting. Everyone should have an the ability and the right to state their opinion. Especially when it comes to Religion, Science, and politics. Google, Facebook and youtube need to be held accountable for their censorship attempts.  
 
4. Energy. Use and develop Canadian Energy. We would do more for the environment by refining and using our own oil. Our laws are more restrictive than any country we will ship it to. We would be greener in our refining attempts than any other country, thus less overall pollution. that is not even mentioning the costs due to transportation of the unrefined crude. we need to focus on developing energy for our immediate use, develop greener alternatives for the future and develop transition technologies to get us there all at the same time. The answer is not a carbon tax.  
 
5. I support a revamping of the political system. Get rid of parties. Vote for individuals. This party stuff is ridiculous. Individuals can campaign on what they stand for and we can vote accordingly. Alternatively a weighted ballet sounds appealing too, where a second option holds some weight too. But, If a weighted ballet is ever implemented it should only weight the first and second choice.  
 
6. Tax payers first... majority rules. this new thing where the minorities drive policies is ridiculous. Prime ministers should also not be creating new issues, where there were no issues before. I mean really "peoplekind". Deal with actual issues, don't create new ones.

You do know that the GDP of Ontario is more than BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba Combined! In fact, it accounts for roughly 1/3rd of Canada's GDP. But that should be no surprise, because Ontario alone has roughly 3 million more people than all the 4 Western Provinces combined! So...yeah, Ontario deserves the attention. Ontario receives roughly $1 Billion in equalization payments, while Manitoba receives about double that amount!! Remember that Ontario has roughly 14x the population...what you effectively want to do is take away $2 Billion away from Manitoba!?! What Ontario receives per-capita is a tiny fraction of what Manitoba receives.  
 
Wow.

Some posts disagree or posts agree about this yellow vest group.This group maybe not be protesting what the yellow vests believe in but are finally standing up and not sitting on the couch and complaining and doing something that should have been done 30 years ago. We in westman are to passive and conservative and sit back and complain. I have lived in the province for all my life and westman people are to scared to rock the boat. We need change at the federal government level for 70 years, I am tired of the liberals and conservatives always getting in, nothing has changed people. I would even vote for the rhino party. Let's face it 10% of people own the world and 90% of people work for a living. Who has the bigger voice. It works the other way the 10% have power and money and seem to shut 90% of people up. Let's start making a change and speak up for change westman. Enough is enough. Change is good. They yellow vests in France went the wrong way, voilence may work but it does not get results.