Discussions

So awhile back I came across an article about Manitoba scoring the lowest on national tests.  
 
Is it something to do with the structure of education?  
 
Years ago in grade 10 I failed a math class and wasn’t granted the credit. Is it true now that teachers can’t fail students?  
 
I also recall one of my friends daughters getting honours in June 2019 for high school then heard that she failed 3 of 4 university liberal arts courses.  
 
Is the material in compulsory schooling not enriching enough or is it too dumbed down to not grasp essential skills to do well in university?

Welcome to 2020. The time of unlimited success.  
You never fail in school. You get a participation ribbon just for showing up. You get a ribbon for coming in last. Winning is never important anymore as long as you show up and play the game.  
Then somehow you make it to adulthood. You get a job. Failure is no longer an option for the employer. You have to make the sales, build the product, arrive on time even if last night was a party.  
OMG, what is going on? I have been here for 3 months and I have not got a huge raise or promoted to Manager. Doesn't this company realize how lucky they are that I show up every day?  
 
People are being brought up and raised to believe that success is guaranteed and they are entitled to rewards.  
 
It will only get worse as the older generation who understands the value of work and pride in their accomplishments retire and the "Me Too" group is in control and rewarding themselves for nothing.

Very well said and true Nutritionist...  
 
My daughter has a kid in her class who doesn't speak English and there are no EA's to help. He just sits in the back of the class playing on an iPad all day. He always passes even though he doesn't participate in any of the lessons. Ribbons and gold stars for all!! Very sad indeed.

It is a sad state of affairs. I had a relative graduate grade 12 and he didn't really feel any pride because he knew it wasn't much of an accomplishment.  
 
Before the teachers get defensive, I feel it is a broken system and actually feel quite bad for most of the teachers who are trying their best within it.

Manitoba has one of if not the highest rate of kids in foster care. The Manitoba government has also decided that caps on glass rooms sizes are not necessary. I get the participation argument but there is more than just that leading to these poor test results.

Education ratings don’t really have anything to do with foster care, IMO. I do think teachers seem to care more about their benefits and break times in recent years and rely on parents to fill in the gaps more now... on the other hand I think parents have slacked off on their part and aren’t doing as much as they should to develop their kids to be successful.

While I agree some parents are not helping their children I certainly don’t believe that is the case.  
 
Parents are working and working hard. We put in multiple hours working multiple jobs just to pay the bills. Add in 1 extracurricular activity and there is very little time.  
 
For my child I find some teachers are better than others. Some really give their all and others don’t.  
 
Everyone getting a pass regardless of really deserving it bothers me a lot. I think changing the way things are done definitely doesn’t help. What was wrong with how our generation learned how to do math for example. I can’t even figure out my child’s math even if she needed help.  
 
Another thing I think is silly is different levels in each class. For example- 3 groups of kids - each group gets a different group of spelling words based on the child’s level. Should everyone not be learning the same things?? If they struggle they just get put in the lower group so they get easier words.

I know of a lot of instances growing up where failing someone out of grade 8 or 10 or even grade 5 and ripping them from their entire social world had pretty devastating effects. I mean not only have you been forced to make all new friends with people who've known each other for years already (for example read all of the how to meet new people in Brandon threads) you also force them to be the "dumb kid" in the eyes of themselves and their new peers not to mention a second kick in the stomach forcing them to befriend kids in the grade below (you could always hang with older kids that was cool, but you didn't hang with younger kids).  
 
A lot of people totally miss the true purpose of school. School is 20% Learning to read and do math etc...but it's 80% prep for entering society. You learn to function within a framework, you're semi institutionalized, you learn social skills and how to behave within a group and larger group. I mean how many times has everyone said "Why do I need to know this? I'll never use this?" and you're right you don't need it and you'll never use it so it doesn't matter if you fail that. Everyone gets a gold star isn't a big deal because the real achievements and failures are social in school. You may get a gold star but You still know, and I still know you didn't win so what's the point of making a scene why single out the winners just to remind the other 90% they're losers? Not to mention there are really only one or 2 people who win EVERYTHING and they already know they're great.  
 
I'm just really bothered by all of the militant corporal people on ebrandon...some of the stuff I read about how they figure kids should be raised because it's the way they were raised when study after study after study shows it does far more damage over the long term to not only self esteem but the economy as well when they get older.  
 
Edited by Heynow, 2020-02-05 08:32:49

But employers are now demanding higher grades and levels of education. How can you say that it does not matter if a child does not learn and remember the subject matter? It’s cold and lonely when you’re applying for job after job without the qualifications and knowledge required.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-02-05 08:47:17

So as I read the comments some people would rather have their Surgeon or Lawyer be a wonderful friendly social person who was at the bottom 10% of their class because they are happier nicer people than have the person who was top 10% but is not quite as social fix their broken leg or get them out of jail.  
 
Someone who was passed along just so as to not hurt their feelings is not ever-ever-ever going to be as proficient at any job from heart surgery to pumping gas as a person raised to work hard and succede. I don't care who pumps my gas, nice or not - but I certainly care who is going to slice open my stomach with a sharp instrument

about others but I know that some students in higher grades cannot sign their name as they have not been taught how to write. I was told they don't teach writing anymore! Also, our new generation cannot tell time unless they use their phone to check!! As for social life skills, there needs to be more of that as a lot of university students are very good academically but not socially as they use their phone for that. Students also need to be taught responsibility.

Cursive handwriting has not really been taught in the last 10 years or so and really I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. With the way technology and computers are going now a days keyboarding skills and proper spelling should be the main focus. You spend the entire year in third grade learning how to write in cursive and then will never, ever write in cursive again. Instead, schools should add additional spelling lessons to the curriculum. Kids are more tech savvy these days, but because of Microsoft Spell Check, NOBODY knows how to spell without a computer anymore.  
 
Also I don't know where your kids come from but all the kids I know can tell time without a phone....

It’s both teachers and parents job to educate their kids.  
 
I think many kids growing up now are told they’re special so often that it’s skewed their perspective.  
 
I remember my first conversation with my first year BU Chem prof and him asking me where I went to high school. When I told him he chucked and said “you’re going to have fun in this class”. I thought that a little odd as I got fairly good grades in high school. Boy was he right.  
 
So who’s fault is it?

this made me laugh because ever since I started using a computer it's like I can't spell any more! There wasn't too many words I didn't know when I had to use pen and paper but now I have to ask my family member how to spell certain words! Computers can make people dumb!

I’m pretty sure they still fail kids at the high school level. At least they did a couple years ago. My son failed a couple courses. When he “graduated” grade 8, one of his teachers called after it was all said and done that he was moving to Gr 9, to tell me that my son technically failed his class but they still moved him on. He said he didn’t recommend my son going to grade 9 yet, but they still choose to pass him. He really struggled in high school. But did graduate a year late.  
My daughter was always an honours student. She always did amazing in school. She graduated last spring with honours and scholarships. She’s currently in college. She was so frustrated the first couple months of college. It took a toll on her mental health. Why?! Because she never had much for homework in school (elementary/high), but in College she was swamped with it. She had no idea how to balance school, homework, work, friends and responsibilities anymore. She juggled that all no problem in high school. But she certainly was no where prepared for any homework load in college! She had to do a lot of readjusting how she does things, but is finally getting the hang of it, and getting the good grades. But the first few months were really rough.  
Maybe more homework needs to be sent home and completed, and getting parents more involved in their education.  
 
Edited by Cheezies, 2020-02-05 11:23:37

Forget education and being sure there is a future for our children... Isn’t there a new idea about Manitoba changing it’s flag? I think that is where our Tax money should go. Let’s give up on the kids already... last is last... there is no hope for our kids... but a flag!! Now that is important!  
 
(Sorry... Sarcasm)

I have a friend that has a child that has had trouble in school. They were told that it was the choice of the parents to hold that child back and that the teachers can only make recommendations. Teachers in grade 2, 3 and 4 recommended holding the child back and each year the parents decided to move the child along with their peers as the social consequences would be worse than the material consequences. So maybe parents and others need to look at the parents instead of insinuating that all teachers just move kids through the grades.

There is a huge failure to acknowledge that not everybody learns the same way, and not every way of teaching different content is useful. Likewise, some people are not cut out for university but are more cut out for college/apprenticeships and vice versa. We all have different skills and nobody is better or worse than another person!  
 
The biggest issue with compulsory schooling is that it is trying to raise every single child in a watered down version of everything, because they are trying to cover their bases. They are teaching math so that kids that want to go on to study physics have some experience, but it's watered down in such a way that it is mostly accessible to all students, leading to big struggles when post-secondary hits. They try to cover this with different math levels, but even pre-calc doesn't adequately prepare a student for university level calculus.  
 
The problem boils down to teaching kids relevant life skills that are translatable into whatever higher education (or lack thereof) that they aim to follow. Everybody can be good at math, what determines who succeeds is the student who grasps the standard way that it is taught, and if you don't get it then you are crap out of luck. If you teach kids how to be persistent, and what modes of learning work best for them, they will be better off.  
 
If you ask me, there should be a heavier emphasis on skills such as work-life balance, how to study, how to write well, etc etc etc. All of those basic skills are translatable across absolutely every career path that you can think of. Expecting teens to know what they want starting from the time they are fourteen is incredibly unfair.  
 
To those blaming the children: Kids are only as entitled as they are raised to be. Some children have miserable home lives, some come to school hungry, some have dyslexia or ADHD. The one size fits all approach to education does not work in compulsory schooling.

Setting all of the opinions and worries about not knowing how do cursive hand writing (which was only invented to keep the ink from smearing and dripping all over the page back when we used ink wells and otherwise serves no practical purpose) or the ability to do complex math in our heads...do you think there is any benefit to spending billions of dollars on an education systems that make us less competitive? We like to bust chops, but do you really believe the powers that be are that frivolous and incompetent to allow that?  
 
Also, for what it's worth, Einstein once said "I never memorize something I can look up" much like cursive hand writing or the QWERTY keyboard (which was invented to SLOW DOWN type speeds because the mechanical type writers couldn't handle speeds over 25 or 30 words per minute) we don't need to know or do a lot of things the way we had to learn in the 70's or even the 90's. You don't need to know the dewey decimal system or how to look things up in an encyclopedia, the world is vastly different from even 15 years ago much less when most of you went to school. I lived through "calculator being cheating" to "why don't you have a calculator?" Take physics class where you have half a page of equations and calculations, where it's not the math it's the procedure and equation that is important...or anything to do with the electrical trades...you'd be silly to chance a careless error carrying a one or missing a decimal place by not using a calculator.  
 
Being a first world country and one of the richest 7 in that category, we are incredibly concerned with keeping our edge. I doubt any government would endorse curriculums that would do anything other than improve our over all competitiveness.  
 
I also think a lot of us have very selective memories about how great we were when we went to school. I hear a lot of anecdotes about how stupid kids are today and how much we all knew back when we were in school...but for the life of me I don't recall too many "WOW" moments from my school years.  
 
I feel very secure knowing that these kids will know more than I ever knew and will create things I don't understand and not being cut from the hockey team or being pushed through 3rd grade won't hamper that.  
 
Edited by Heynow, 2020-02-05 13:55:01

All the homeschooling families must be sitting there with a huge grin! And rightly so

Let's all remember that it is fact that literacy rates are actually decreasing , which is fact, and appalling. And let's also remember that the public school system was really implemented during the industrial revolution to promote the idea of factory work, they call it "factory model". That is fact. In fact, one of the main men who started and supported public schools says that the whole idea of it was so that the children would be better at following orders than their parents....that's fact.... the public school system is created awesome workers. Workers that don't think for themselves. Workers that pass asking as they just show up. Workers that take their work home with them and put family second.  
 
A really phenomenal book I suggest we all read is the book by John Taylor Gatto called "dumbing us down". For all those neigh Sayers, this book is written by a man who has year upon years inside the education system, and he writes about it in a very clear and ultimately scary way.  
 
The

To you Jackson 67 and good for you John Bison Bear to speak up and tell it the way it is. Our students need the basics along with life skills. I know a student who will be graduating with a high degree in university but doesn't know that her vehicle has to have an oil change or how to read a bank statement or to do many other things. Before anyone says anything, I don't believe they should be teaching the basics of owning a vehicle!!!

All the negative talk of education and especially by this government but we are still graduating doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, trades people, career people, business people, service industry people and yes even laborers. A lot of every day situations are dealt with by common sense which you can not teach. And yes our education system is still turning out politicians who graduated from schools but fail in common sense.

Funny you mention "common sense"... it isn't taught in school for a reason. It's not about free thinking or logic, it's about how well one can take orders...

Hello there,  
 
I have worked in the k-12 system and post secondary systems across three provinces both as a teacher and administrator. This is what I have observed in Brandon to date:  
1. Children begin learning basic math concepts around grade 2 whereas in other Canadian provinces this begins as early as kindergarten (e.g. addition and subtraction using props or fingers or recognizing numeric numbers). Also, in Brandon kindergarten students focus on mostly social skills which are very important for that age, but not so much the analysis or calculation (math) or expression (writing). For example. I’m surprised at the number of learners who do not know how to format an essay or a report when they leave high school.  
2. There are various beliefs systems about educating children one being they don’t learn because they are like products on an assembly line and as a result, kids lose creativity because schooling is drilled into them. Another theory is to engage kids from the age of 2-4 in reading, writing and mathematics so that they have a good start. I tend to agree with the latter view. For the individual who made the comment about the emotional toll on a student who doesn’t graduate or move to the next level with his or her friends, in my experience, that doesn’t help the student. One theory would be that the student wait to enter kindergarten to develop more social skills and prekindergarten competencies, so that he or she would be better prepared or provide a tandem course or tutorial to support the learner towards progress rather than pushing through a learner who doesn’t have the competencies to perform at the next grade level making it harder for him or her to be successful. Also, in the workplace, not everyone gets promoted or selected for tasks as a group: it’s based on individual merit.  
3. There is a cultural shift around education that needs to take place in Manitoba and smaller communities to be specific where achievement rates are lowest. The attitude seems to be teach what I need to know and I’ll be on my way, but if learning isn’t holistic and considers different perspectives then the chance of success in analyzing information or making decisions slowly fades.  
 
So what do parents need to do?  
Suggestions  
1. Rally for curricula that is experiential and inquiry based with basic concepts of math, reading and writing in kindergarten  
2. Focus on student experiences that are both project (performance based) as well as ensure learners are assessed for understanding (several checkpoints)  
3. Don’t fight the use of technology but use it as a tool to check for comprehension, knowledge, and research not a tool to do the analysis and recommendation  
 
There is a lot more I could say but ultimately there needs to be educational reform with stakeholders from across the province at the table to discuss what’s working well and where things are not working well and to consider various curricula around the globe that works well (e.g Finland, Alberta, BC, Ontario, Magnwt schools, Montessoris, etc)  
 
Edited by Cwalt58, 2020-02-05 20:17:52

 
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-02-05 21:46:16

when attending school had favourite subjects which we excelled at and other subjects not so great at learning. Sometimes the teacher was uninspiring and boring and we would 'zone out'.  
Everyone has a different way of learning however I do dispute the notion that kids can't learn because of their home life or because they go to school hungry, We had a tough life growing up with a parent being an alcoholic and our breakfast was toast with white sugar mixed with white sugar and cinnamon, lunch and supper were not much better/healthier but we learned! Some of the learning came from a parent and grandparent who loved us dearly and kept us inquisitive.  
We all suffer somehow but can overcome our childhood.

was the lucky generation where graduating with honours really was graduating with honours had to have a %85 average. And I graduated with a triple certificate.  
 
Unfortunate I can't even get a job as a bank teller as they want as a bank degree! I was an Insurance Broker for petes sake! I have 1/4 of a university degree. I am not going to spend $40,000 for a certificate to get a $40,000 a year job.

I always find the point of "school is for learning to socialize" a bit strange.... because truly, if you think of it, how much of the time are kids REALLY socializing? Are they allowed to talk during class? No. How many of us got into trouble for talking? Kids have 15minute recess in the morning to talk, 30 for lunch and another 15 in the afternoon. That's pretty much all the socializing they are ALLOWED to do.... so in an 8? hour day they are allowed to talk with fellow students for the combined period of 1 hour?..... that doesn't seem like a fantastic environment to socialize in ...especially when you're expected to sit quietly 80% of the time..... then we have to think, who are they learning HOW to socialize properly from? Other kids the same age, who have the same mental capacity as themselves? If you want to learn how to play piano, do you go to someone who also doesn't know how to play piano?.. no, you go to someone who has played piano for years....And if compulsory schooling was so phenomenal as raising proper, respectful, socially capable people, would we not be able to see the fruit of that around us? But really, are kids that socially advanced? I mean, think of it, if you go out and look around are we seeing a fully developed social student? Or is this the most antisocial and virtue stunted (respect for elders, proper and respectful language, etc) society we have probably every seen? Who knows how to socialize? Everyone at the staff room table isn't socializing anymore, they are on their phones. Everyone walking down the street isn't socializing anymore they are in their phones or listening to earbuds, even if they are with others.. At this point no one is really social to any degree.... at school they are supposed to be quiet, not socializing, at home they are supposed to do homework and not be too rowdy, heck, we hardly see kids outside socializing anymore at all, and then parents think that's theyve spent so much time socializing during the day (even though it was only 1 hour) they feel it's okay to stick them unfront of a phone while they are grocery shopping, or driving, or eating out, because it's not their job to teach socialism it's the schools job. And they school is saying it's "it's not our job to teach socialism it's the parents" so no one is teaching the kids because they pass the responsibility onto someone else, ... it is the most antisocial society, and the bulk of our lives are spent in school, so really, it makes no sense to say school teaches kids to be social, in fact if anything it's quite the opposite.. we are naturally social creatures and we will automatically seek social interaction, unless we are told to shut-up and sit down quietly for 13+ years of our lives. School doesn't teach socialism, it teaches you to be quiet.  
 
Edited by SuperheroAmongYou, 2020-02-06 09:08:52

To clarify, I wasn't trying to claim that it is completely impossible for kids to learn if they are struggling with those things. But it absolutely can be a contributing factor for poor grades, low motivation, etc. Every child has potential but every child is also born into varying levels of privilege with different obstacles to overcome.  
 
I also agree with your final point. We all can overcome our childhood if we put the effort in. The point I was trying to make is that /most/ school age kids will not care about grades or learning outcomes if they have bigger fish to fry. It's not that they won't learn at all, but for many kids a pass is a pass whether it's an A or a C.  
 
Though I think this changes once a kid is old enough to move on to post-secondary. I don't blame first year students for doing poorly because they are not prepared adequately (I also struggled quite a bit, I went from getting A's on my high school essays to getting a C on my first university paper). However at that age they are beginning to come into adulthood and need to learn to take responsibility for their life and their learning, which is where it becomes important to overcome childhood adversity and such.