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(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave
6/17/2020 at 10:42 AM

The Brandon Sun has an article today on Thomas Lafayette Rosser, his history as a Confederate major general, his general amount of questionable business ethics, and his propensity to being a bit of a sh** disturber. This isn't news to me, I saw his history a few years ago and figured, "Huh, that's not exactly stellar!"

So, this brings up the question, if it was decided to change the name of Rosser Ave to something else, what would your leading names be? A famous Brandonite? Someone of provincial or national significance?

I realize some will be, "We don't need to change the name. Always changing things!" That's not what this is about. If Quaker can drop the Aunt Jemima name, we can consider expunging Thomas Lafayette Rosser. As for cost, singage won't break the bank, and I'm sure Canada Post would recognize "Rosser Ave" as valid for a number of years.
happycamper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 635

happycamper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 635

rosser ave
6/17/2020 at 10:46 AM

how about Len Evans avenue....(one of the good guys)
axana596
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 844

axana596
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 844

imho
6/17/2020 at 10:47 AM

Honestly, most people don't know the history behind the Rosser Avenue name. I personally don't think of any political messages as I turn onto that street to get to my destination. So, does it even matter? Is there really a connection between the history and the current usage? That's the only reason why I would suggest not changing it - there's a big disconnect.
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

oh geez
6/17/2020 at 10:48 AM

Let's rename Rosser avenue as Snow White Way because everyone else has had a life, did wrong things to people, made money off the backs of others, maybe even cussed a lot too.
But once again social media will win out.
foxtrot11
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2688

foxtrot11
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2688

Here, Here
6/17/2020 at 11:24 AM

Johnbisonbear said "Let's rename Rosser avenue as Snow White Way because everyone else has had a life, did wrong things to people, made money off the backs of others, maybe even cussed a lot too.
But once again social media will win out. "
Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone....

Sticks and Stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me....

Perhaps if people stopped getting so upset over words and spent a few minutes learning about our history the world would be a better place.

After all - hiding the dust pile under the rug doesn't make it go away,
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

.
6/17/2020 at 11:54 AM

We should each learn from our history , not try to white wash it over. These kind of things just add fuel to the fire. Things happened in the past that can’t be undone , but we can learn from them and become better individuals.
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

My thought
6/17/2020 at 11:55 AM

I, personally, don't agree with the concept of erasing history. However, if we are going down that path, there had better not be any naming of places after people period.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Rosser
6/17/2020 at 12:02 PM

For more background, Rosser's wikipedia is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_L._Rosser
Have known and become quite accustomed to the Rosser Ave name over my life and have taken it for granted without knowing the history. I think its fair to be open to a conversation about whether who we are as a community today and what we signal support of in our historical street namings are in alignment.
Folks will have their own opinion on what might be appropriate for a major street if there is a renaming, but just speaking generally in terms of street names... lots of prime ministers, premiers, mayors, MPs and MLAs have presided over the last few decades and we seem to have gotten away from using their names. Maybe it gets difficult in today's politically charged environment in that for every Chretien Crescent you need a Harper Avenue and a G.Doer Drive to cover all sides of the political spectrum. We also have some local folks that have gone on to do great things such as James Ehnes and Israel Idonije that I think are very fitting of some sort of honour.
The other thing that really jumps off the page of local street names to me is how under-represented Aboriginal persons are given the depth of history in the area.

FWIW, this list is a decade old now but these are names that have been on the city street name registry:
https://brandon.ca/images/pdf/developmentServices/property/StreetNameRegistry.pdf
BTS
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 55

BTS
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 55

Curious
6/17/2020 at 12:58 PM

Just curious as to why a main avenue in Brandon Mb Canada was named after an American confederate soldier. There must have been a reason? Seems strange to me. Must have been other choices.
Cheezies
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1623

Cheezies
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1623

Street.
6/17/2020 at 1:02 PM

Personally I don’t think it should be changed. It’s a part of history to learn from (which honestly I didn’t know), and it’s going to cost WAY too much money to change. Down to phone books, maps, stores websites, stores suppliers, home addresses, utility companies, drivers licenses (to those that live there), business cards, etc, etc. If there is a person alive that was personally wronged by this man, then maybe, but there’s not.
But if it is changed, they should never use a persons name again. And for future, streets, cities, etc, shouldn’t be named after anyone. What this man was like was acceptable in his time (and I’m not saying that was right, we know better now). And now he’s not here to defend his behaviour, actions, or to change, serve time, etc. He was chosen for a reason back then, which I feel someone thought was relevant. Perhaps for us to learn not to be like now.
So if it’s renamed after someone we feel is amazing now, what happens 100plus years later and people then think these people we picked were bad. What if they develop shady behaviour in the future... do we change it again?
I think it should be left, and used as an example to be better.
Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

No
6/17/2020 at 1:21 PM

But, if we insist on changing the name, how about calling it Political Correctness Avenue or Idiocy Avenue???
Clubman15
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 216

Clubman15
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 216

Founder
6/17/2020 at 2:16 PM

BTS said "Just curious as to why a main avenue in Brandon Mb Canada was named after an American confederate soldier. There must have been a reason? Seems strange to me. Must have been other choices. "
He was with the railways at the time and considered a founding member of Brandon
ford
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 148

ford
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 148

Rosser Ave .
6/17/2020 at 2:25 PM

Why do people think we should always be erasing our Canadian history? MAybe Rosser was not perfect but he was a part of our heritage , whether we liked it or not ! Nobody is perfect , we have all made mistakes no matter our col oror creed . For Pete leave things alone , try to put the past , good or bad and work together for a better world Canada is soon going to have no history !
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Sadly there
6/17/2020 at 4:04 PM

is always a risk when naming a street or town after someone. You never know when that persons past catches up to them or feeling about them change. Unfortunately back when Rosser Ave. got it's name where was no internet, encyclopedias, or other instant information to research the person.

Don't rename the street, but everyone should know who he was and his history.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Though
6/17/2020 at 4:50 PM

other than being Chief Engineer for Canadian Pacific for a short period, what historical significance to Brandon does he hold? Especially for what became one of our main downtown streets. He doesn't have the more local history that John McTavish has, who was Canadian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_L._Rosser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTavish_(politician)

Looks like we aren't the only place questioning having street named after Rosser.

https://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Rosser-571279461.html
Woody94
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 661

Woody94
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 661

-
6/17/2020 at 5:10 PM

As the chief engineer he bought the land Brandon is currently on and was part of surveying the original town. He named the street after himself. He named other places in Mb after confederate buddies and himself as well. Strange story. I had no idea. Even though he fought for the confederate army I saw no mention of slave ownership. So for me the name staying is fine.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Manitoba Historical Society
6/17/2020 at 6:34 PM

Found this on Manitoba Historical Society webpage. Pretty interesting character. One street actually fire the other who was in cahots with another! Have to read the article to see what I mean.

Thomas Rosser legacy
http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/56/rosserlegacy.shtml
GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

GetRec'd
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 234

Indignenous acknowledgement
6/19/2020 at 10:00 AM

Adam said "
For more background, Rosser's wikipedia is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_L._Rosser
Have known and become quite accustomed to the Rosser Ave name over my life and have taken it for granted without knowing the history. I think its fair to be open to a conversation about whether who we are as a community today and what we signal support of in our historical street namings are in alignment.
Folks will have their own opinion on what might be appropriate for a major street if there is a renaming, but just speaking generally in terms of street names... lots of prime ministers, premiers, mayors, MPs and MLAs have presided over the last few decades and we seem to have gotten away from using their names. Maybe it gets difficult in today's politically charged environment in that for every Chretien Crescent you need a Harper Avenue and a G.Doer Drive to cover all sides of the political spectrum. We also have some local folks that have gone on to do great things such as James Ehnes and Israel Idonije that I think are very fitting of some sort of honour.
The other thing that really jumps off the page of local street names to me is how under-represented Aboriginal persons are given the depth of history in the area.

FWIW, this list is a decade old now but these are names that have been on the city street name registry:
https://brandon.ca/images/pdf/developmentServices/property/StreetNameRegistry.pdf
"
THANK YOU for saying this.

Taking down a confederate name in Canada should not be a controversial action. When this can be an opportunity to acknowledge the Indigenous history of Brandon, it should be even LESS controversial.

People not associating Rosser's racism when they turn down the street is exactly the point. It's normalized and erased the ugly reality.

Hopefully Chrest will see this as another opportunity to acknowledge the traditional history of this land and change the name. Indigenous representation matters.

Additionally, maybe we just stop naming streets/schools/libraries after politicians altogether, because they never seem to have their act together.
Fishin Guy
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6897

Fishin Guy
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6897

....
6/19/2020 at 10:26 AM

Why not just make it easy and rename all the streets as streets and ave. 1st ave, 1st street. Go back to the simple grid numbering system. As for the racism thing, not sure what he did. He was a leader in an army according to Adam's link. I don't know what he did to promote racism or anything. Would they rename Rosser out by Winnipeg too?
What I find ironic is that here we are picking on history figures and focusing so much on the past and how to erase it, daily in my back yard at the park I see cultures singling out females from playing with males. I see one group taking over a playground essentially pushing away the lesser group and not including them. It is so easy to hold a cardboard sign and sit on some street corner wanting someone else to correct mistakes of the past. Yet it is too difficult to engage change in our own back yards.
hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

hutchster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 859

...
6/19/2020 at 10:35 AM

GetRec'd said "THANK YOU for saying this.

Taking down a confederate name in Canada should not be a controversial action. When this can be an opportunity to acknowledge the Indigenous history of Brandon, it should be even LESS controversial.

People not associating Rosser's racism when they turn down the street is exactly the point. It's normalized and erased the ugly reality.

Hopefully Chrest will see this as another opportunity to acknowledge the traditional history of this land and change the name. Indigenous representation matters.

Additionally, maybe we just stop naming streets/schools/libraries after politicians altogether, because they never seem to have their act together. "
What exactly is a "confederate name" and how does it instantly imply racism ?
blue.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2

blue.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2

no
6/19/2020 at 10:54 AM

if we change that street name then I think we need to change princess as well. its offensive its not prince.
then lets change 1st street because its offensive towards sports. lets rename it participation street.

how about we just leave our history the way it is. these are the things that built our city and countries. whether they are good or bad.

they are just words.....
alight
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1362

alight
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1362

nopes
6/19/2020 at 12:40 PM

So if we 'rename' the street, you will have to rename the Rosser Ward. While its good to atleast know the history of a name, this whole movement of renaming stuff and removing stuff has gone overboard in my opinion. Back to more pressing issues the city has to deal with.
Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

Yeah, but...
6/19/2020 at 1:15 PM

Fishin Guy said "Why not just make it easy and rename all the streets as streets and ave. 1st ave, 1st street. Go back to the simple grid numbering system. As for the racism thing, not sure what he did. He was a leader in an army according to Adam's link. I don't know what he did to promote racism or anything. Would they rename Rosser out by Winnipeg too?
What I find ironic is that here we are picking on history figures and focusing so much on the past and how to erase it, daily in my back yard at the park I see cultures singling out females from playing with males. I see one group taking over a playground essentially pushing away the lesser group and not including them. It is so easy to hold a cardboard sign and sit on some street corner wanting someone else to correct mistakes of the past. Yet it is too difficult to engage change in our own back yards. "
That's the hypocracy of political correctness. As long as it's not our culture doing the singling out, it's perfectly fine. Funny thing is, all of these politically correct agendas are starting to collide. It's shaping up to be one big pile-up. Grab your popcorn.
Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

Triplethreat
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 960

At The Rate We're Going...
6/19/2020 at 1:23 PM

What will be next? Obviously, we will have to not only rename Rosser Avenue, but also every business and building with the name Rosser. Yes, we will have to rename the town of Rosser. If your last name happens to be Rosser, maybe you should consider changing it too. Then what? Will we have to rename the province of British Columbia? After all, Columbia is derived from Columbus. Yeah, that's right, Christopher Columbus and we all know who he was...right? You see now where this is going?
braid
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5434

braid
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5434

Rosser
6/19/2020 at 2:07 PM

Seriously. . Do you realize the cost of this ?? Rosser is an extremely long street.
Not just for the city but for every individual & business with a Rosser Avenue address would have to pay for changing there address, letter heads , banking information , etc.
foxtrot11
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2688

foxtrot11
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2688

Don't stop there
6/19/2020 at 2:11 PM

Triplethreat said "What will be next? Obviously, we will have to not only rename Rosser Avenue, but also every business and building with the name Rosser. Yes, we will have to rename the town of Rosser. If your last name happens to be Rosser, maybe you should consider changing it too. Then what? Will we have to rename the province of British Columbia? After all, Columbia is derived from Columbus. Yeah, that's right, Christopher Columbus and we all know who he was...right? You see now where this is going? "
Manitoba implies men are superior - Peopletoba.

I kid of course, but I think political correctness went off the deep end years ago already. There is an article on CBC today implying that the sport of curling is too white and it needs to be more inclusive. Seriously - no one is forcing all white people to curl nor are they saying only black men can play basketball (I am white and hate curling, but also could never afford to curl because we were so poor - does that mean I was discriminated on because of my lack of wealth??)

I think back to the insane renaming of the Museum of Man and Nature to the Manitoba Museum because it was offensive to women. Give me a break - the "man" in the original name referred to "human" as a species, not man as a sex.

Nope - we are going backwards as a species here people - I guess we need to change names of all streets, schools, buildings etc to numerical and alphabetic values, all dress in the same colour of clothes, all mark an "x" rather than having names.

George Orwell would be thrilled.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Rosser
6/19/2020 at 2:23 PM

Words matter. Empathy matters. People matter. Being an inclusive community matters.

A few of the posts here are acting like we’ve just become aware that the man once as a kid stole a pack of bubble gum from the corner store. This isn’t a small mistake, this was a key figure in an ugly, ugly part of history that saw the fighting to do despicable, inhumane things to people of colour that should not be done to any human being. Because it’s another country’s history or that his most serious wrongs didn’t happen here doesn’t change the fact that it happened.

Recognizing what it signifies to build our city’s identity around someone with an established history of fighting for a system that included enslaving human beings shouldn’t have to be something that you have to identify with one part of the political spectrum to be able to see a problem with. Having a street named after someone is an honour and I’ve read enough to not feel right about this being someone we should continue to shine a light on. Relatively speaking Brandon is quite young as a city and Canada as a country, let’s admit this mistake “early” in that history and at least look at how practical it would be to not signal this is someone we embrace... because now that the history is out there and everybody knows it there’s an argument to be made that that’s what we’re doing.

I don’t think anybody’s saying to erase the pages from local history books and pretend that he was not in Brandon for a period of time. You could argue that this conversation in the community right now has already done more than anything could in educating current generations on this part of our history. Folks would continue to have the opportunity to continue to read about and learn that history from the same books.

Any proposed change should absolutely come with a look at cost since there realistically is an upper limit on what the city could afford to spend without some form of outside contribution. A starting point re cost might be this USA city (link below), which a few years ago had direct and indirect costs at $6200… granted every city and street will have its own variables that could send costs one way or another:
https://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/local/2014/09/30/changing-street-name-alexandria-can-costly/16511857/

Words matter. Empathy matters. People matter. Being an inclusive community matters... exception being hitching our wagon to the history a confederate general.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Let’s not forget
6/19/2020 at 5:21 PM

If people want to play the slavery and racism card that not one of us today is innocent. Much of the goods and products that we buy in the stores is made in foreign countries where people are often working in slave labour conditions. Our greed is the cause of that suffering and it’s happening under our noses in this day and age.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

In the MHS
6/19/2020 at 5:32 PM

links I posted, his Civil War time wasn't overly anything terrible. Other getting injured a bunch of times, a few wins, and the fastest retreat of the war. Don't really see anything that he should get his name removed for having to do with his time in the Civil War.

His time with the CP only lasted under a year. He did name streets and towns after himself and friends. Him and Stickney profited from land deals knowing where they were running the rail line through. Hence why Van Horne fired Rosser. Van Horne and Rosser nearly got into a fight in Winnipeg after the firing. But even those events aren't enough for me to say remove his name.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

^^^
6/19/2020 at 6:27 PM

Adam said "
Words matter. Empathy matters. People matter. Being an inclusive community matters.

A few of the posts here are acting like we’ve just become aware that the man once as a kid stole a pack of bubble gum from the corner store. This isn’t a small mistake, this was a key figure in an ugly, ugly part of history that saw the fighting to do despicable, inhumane things to people of colour that should not be done to any human being. Because it’s another country’s history or that his most serious wrongs didn’t happen here doesn’t change the fact that it happened.

Recognizing what it signifies to build our city’s identity around someone with an established history of fighting for a system that included enslaving human beings shouldn’t have to be something that you have to identify with one part of the political spectrum to be able to see a problem with. Having a street named after someone is an honour and I’ve read enough to not feel right about this being someone we should continue to shine a light on. Relatively speaking Brandon is quite young as a city and Canada as a country, let’s admit this mistake “early” in that history and at least look at how practical it would be to not signal this is someone we embrace... because now that the history is out there and everybody knows it there’s an argument to be made that that’s what we’re doing.

I don’t think anybody’s saying to erase the pages from local history books and pretend that he was not in Brandon for a period of time. You could argue that this conversation in the community right now has already done more than anything could in educating current generations on this part of our history. Folks would continue to have the opportunity to continue to read about and learn that history from the same books.

Any proposed change should absolutely come with a look at cost since there realistically is an upper limit on what the city could afford to spend without some form of outside contribution. A starting point re cost might be this USA city (link below), which a few years ago had direct and indirect costs at $6200… granted every city and street will have its own variables that could send costs one way or another:
https://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/local/2014/09/30/changing-street-name-alexandria-can-costly/16511857/

Words matter. Empathy matters. People matter. Being an inclusive community matters... exception being hitching our wagon to the history a confederate general.
"
Thanks for the great response Adam, it said much of what I was thinking.

As for those that claim that "political correctness going too far" or that we're at the start of a slippery slope. What a bunch of bull excrement. Seriously, the man was an officer in the confederacy. I will admit, I don't know where the line is for disqualifying you from honourifics such as having a street named after you, but being an officer of the Confederacy is so far over the line that it's a no-brainer. If you cannot agree that fighting for the side that wanted to keep owning people made your ethics questionable, then you need to do some deep soul searching.

The man was despicable during the war and it sounds like he was not much better afterward. So yeah, rename Rosser Ave and finally give him the attention he deserves... public derision.