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(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

(Thomas Lafayette) Rosser Ave

1wrangler3
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 280

1wrangler3
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 280

.
6/24/2020 at 7:28 AM

This post may get removed, who knows.
I was at a close friends home visiting with her and her family. The entire family is of African descent.. I asked them if they had seen the talk about rosser avenue or the petition about it. The husband and wife kind of gave each other a glance and giggled a little bit. Then continued on to say ..

“A bit tired of white people telling us what we need to be offended by, or what we need to have changed. How are they still stealing our voices while defending us? I would rather people treat us as equal human beings. Not pat themselves on the shoulder for something they think they’ve done, or because they’ve had a social media presence or signed a petition”

The conversation obviously didn’t stop there, and it went on for a long time and I gained a ton of insight.
I was on full board with the rosser name change, I would say I still am.. but I think it’s important to remember that changing a name doesn’t change the way a large group of people are still currently being treated TODAY.. and that we have many now problems to continue to work on as well.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

***********
6/24/2020 at 8:24 AM

Orion's-Belt said "I’d sign this pettition also. Don’t support slavery. But this seems like it would cost a lot of tax dollars. Changing all the signs. Changing addresses with the post office. The time it would take by home owners and city council and the post office.

Just keep it the same and learn from our mistakes. "
Actually, I suspect the City spends more on flowers in a year than it would cost to make this change.

Since it would be an official name change of an existing street, the post office would just change everyone's address automatically. Postal codes would remain exactly the same, and I suspect that even 10 years later, if something addressed "### Rosser Ave" went through the mail, it would still get delivered to the correct place.

The only other cost I can see is a small grant to help businesses change things like existing letterhead and business cards.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

You know
6/24/2020 at 8:37 AM

Sadly there are still plenty of people that believe in confederacy. Changing the name of a street in Brandon will only serve to fuel their fire creating further division and intolerance, giving traction to their beliefs whilst providing little to no healing for those affected by injustices.
Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

Spaghetti Monster
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1909

It seems to me
6/24/2020 at 9:12 AM

.... that the history of the conquering of the North American continent is chock-a-block full of terrible deeds and nefarious greed ridden motives.

Somewhere up stream it was mentioned that “he fought for the side that seceded from the Union ....“ and “ He was a traitor of the highest order and ethically barren”
But no mention of the fact the “Union” it’s self came as a result of an act of rebellion against the Crown.

Our own history is rife with misdeeds and outright genocidal acts that resonate and reverb through our culture to this very day.

Rosser Ave presents a bit of a conundrum to me. I didn’t know until this conversation started who the Ave was named after or why. If it is changed or not will not affect my life in any fashion. Having never experienced the kind of discrimination that black, or indigenous, or any other marginalized group has experienced I really don’t feel I should have a say or at least my opinion should matter less in this regard.

My concern with making an effort at erasing evidence of unfortunate decisions of the past is that it paints an inaccurate picture. There was a time our great Nation actively sought the destruction of a people because they had what we wanted. We need to remember that. We need to remember there was a time when notorious and infamous people could be recognized in a fashion that would gloss over their crimes. There was a time when, as a nation we accepted that terrible things were being done in the name of greed and avarice and we as a society benefited from these acts.

I would choose to remember and add a caveat rather than change the name and forget we ever allowed such things.

As people, it is our mistakes that we learn the most from. I suspect it is the same for a municipality or a Province or a Nation.
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

*sigh*
6/24/2020 at 9:13 AM

I hardly doubt that Rosser avenue was named after TLR because he was a confederate or because he owned slaves or that he fought in that war. He probably fought in that war and for that side because he and his ancestors lived in the south!

Are we just going to forget the fact that TLR had a hand in founding our city and that he fought to bring the railway?

Social media is out of control.

People have more pressing issues to deal with in their own lives.

Rants, i wish you were more vocal in helping the indigenous in our country. Don't they matter to you?
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

just read some
6/24/2020 at 9:18 AM

girlwhojustliveshere said "http://chng.it/d27WbXpHMz

here’s another petition, calling for the renaming of rosser ave. if many people sign both petitions, it would send a strong, unified message to our city council. while this is just a street name, it shows our community’s values and who we choose to emphasize through our memorializations has impact, whether we like it or not. while brandon will never escape its controversial roots, we as a community have the opportunity now to work towards building a better future "
of the heading for this petition.
It talks about the railway and how the Chinese and Indigenous HAD to build it.
If anyone is starting a petition to get rid of the rails because of this fact please let me know, i want to sign that one!
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

***************
6/24/2020 at 9:27 AM

Johnbisonbear said "I hardly doubt that Rosser avenue was named after TLR because he was a confederate or because he owned slaves or that he fought in that war. He probably fought in that war and for that side because he and his ancestors lived in the south!

Are we just going to forget the fact that TLR had a hand in founding our city and that he fought to bring the railway?

Social media is out of control.

People have more pressing issues to deal with in their own lives.

Rants, i wish you were more vocal in helping the indigenous in our country. Don't they matter to you? "
The only hand TLR had in founding our city is that he chose the route of the railway and decided where it would cross the river. He didn't "fight"for the railway, it was his job to pick a route. Never mind that he got fired from that job for lining his own pocket. Yeah, it wasn't named after him because he was a confederate, but despite him being one. Now we know better.

We can fight more than one fight at once. Yes, the rights of indigenous peoples in our country do matter to me, and I resent the ad hominem assertion that they don't. This thread is not about that, it is about a confederate general that we should no longer honour.
SuperheroAmongYou
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 145

SuperheroAmongYou
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 145

1wrangler3 said it all
6/24/2020 at 12:23 PM

I wish there was a "like" button or "upvote" button.... 1wrangler3 said it perfectly
TripleTrouble
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 29

TripleTrouble
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 29

Triple Trouble
6/24/2020 at 1:05 PM

I lived in Brandon for 50 some years and I did not know about the Rosser Ave. (Thomas Lafayette). Very interesting.
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

You are right
6/24/2020 at 1:14 PM

RantsFromWinnipeg said "I just don't get it.

Why are people going to bat for this long dead Confederate General? It makes no sense. I keep seeing, "We need more information", or, "we need more education on the subject". It's simply a cop out.

What more information do we need? He quit West Point a few weeks before grad to go join the Confederate army. I have a good feeling that he knew what the war was about and what he was fighting for. Regardless, he picked the wrong damn side. He fought for slavery. I do not care whether he had slaves or not, he fought for the right of his fellow Confederates to own slaves. He even named the town of Stonewall after Stonewall Jackson, someone we know owned slaves. He obviously admired Jackson as you don't generally name things after people you do not have great respect or affinity for. We know these things, why in the hell do we need to know more?

Let's talk education. Continuing to honour this man is hurtful. Yeah sure, maybe to some of you reading this, you don't give a flying fudge about who Rosser is, or what he did during his life. Fine, you don't care, but jumping to his defence doesn't seem like the next logical step. Civil rights leaders have been trying to educate us about how destructive and hurtful Civil War monuments are to a huge number of African Americans, as a sign that "we may no longer own you like we did your ancestors, but we still control government and society and we will make you walk by monuments to those that wronged your family, just because we have the power to do so." When people tell you that these monuments are hurtful, why isn't that an educational moment? You say you want more information, but when presented with real pain that's happening now you just ignore it. You've been given the information, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

I can hear it now, "Brandon doesn't have a Civil War monument! What the hell are you talking about?" Damn right we do. Rosser Ave is a monument to a Civil War Confederate General. It honours him, that's what monuments do. The argument that we can use it as an educational opportunity is a complete non-starter. I can use the same argument that we can use the renaming of the street as an educational opportunity. "________ Ave was named Rosser Ave up until 2020 when the Council decided that the main street of commerce in Downtown Brandon should no longer be named after a man that fought for slavery, self-dealt and got fired from the railway, and who wasn't even a Canadian.

This has nothing to do with "more information" It has to do with the fact that renaming the street makes some people uncomfortable: "If we do this, what's next?". Can I say this is the last street we'll rename? Probably not. I'm sure there's some skeletons in the proverbial closet still to be found. So, we'll look at the evidence when we come to it, and make a decision. This will not send us down the slippery slope of renaming every street. I suspect that 95% to 99% of streets in Brandon are named after people that were not Confederate soldiers or Nazis. Hell, had we named a street William H Cosby Drive 30 years ago, I suspect we would have changed it this past year to someone more deserving.

Why? Because that's what progressive societies do. They grow, they change. Sometimes we come to conclusions that things that were "meh" in the past are down right unacceptable today. With Thomas Lafayette Rosser we have reached that point. The Street is a monument to a Confederate General, a leader of men in a terribly misguided war, in a Western CANADIAN city. If anyone can explain why that's okay, I'm listening. So far, nobody has given one good reason for keeping it. The best reasons I've heard are, "He wasn't great, but neither was anyone else at the time." "It wasn't that bad, we don't have proof he owned slaves", and "This is just because of Black Lives Matter".

You know what, Black Lives do Matter, and we'e been told for years that monuments to people like TL Rosser are hurtful and damaging. So when you say you want to be educated, take some time and listen to what people are telling you. Maybe the education you crave has been offered to you the whole time.

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-23 23:07:52"
You are right that you do not get it.

Firstly, you are choosing to confuse the acknowledgement of history, both good and bad, with support for slavery.

Secondly, you are choosing to espouse your OPINION as it is the be all end all of commentary on this issue while erroneously assigning dark motives to the opinions of others.

I respect your opinion and, if the choice is made to delete names from our history, I will accept that even though it would not be my approach.

Your previous post saying this topic is only about Rosser does not hold up though. If society chooses to delete names, we had better delete them all.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-24 13:16:32
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

6/24/2020 at 1:44 PM

JustASoul said "You are right that you do not get it.

Firstly, you are choosing to confuse the acknowledgement of history, both good and bad, with support for slavery.

Secondly, you are choosing to espouse your OPINION as it is the be all end all of commentary on this issue while erroneously assigning dark motives to the opinions of others.

I respect your opinion and, if the choice is made to delete names from our history, I will accept that even though it would not be my approach.

Your previous post saying this topic is only about Rosser does not hold up though. If society chooses to delete names, we had better delete them all.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-24 13:16:32"
Delete them all? Exactly how many streets in Brandon are named after confederate soldiers or Nazis? Your solution seems a smidge extreme.

edit: We can acknowledge history without perpetrating honours that were never earned. I'm not confusing anything. Well, I am a little concerned and confused why people need Rosser's name on a street sign to remember that he wasn't a very admirable individual. Funny how we remember other atrocities without building monuments to the perpetrators. What is it that is so special about the confederacy that we need monuments to remember these horrible people?

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-24 13:51:18
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Most people
6/24/2020 at 2:29 PM

RantsFromWinnipeg said "Delete them all? Exactly how many streets in Brandon are named after confederate soldiers or Nazis? Your solution seems a smidge extreme.

edit: We can acknowledge history without perpetrating honours that were never earned. I'm not confusing anything. Well, I am a little concerned and confused why people need Rosser's name on a street sign to remember that he wasn't a very admirable individual. Funny how we remember other atrocities without building monuments to the perpetrators. What is it that is so special about the confederacy that we need monuments to remember these horrible people?

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-24 13:51:18"
Most people have little interest in history, the kids only learn the minimum in school and it can become quickly forgotten. This is why we need these reminders to jog our memories, encourage us to research , get us to google so the past is not forgotten and hopefully we can prevent history repeating itself. This is why renaming Rosser avenue would likely be pointless and probably counterproductive.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

****
6/24/2020 at 2:38 PM

Farmergeorge said "Most people have little interest in history, the kids only learn the minimum in school and it can become quickly forgotten. This is why we need these reminders to jog our memories, encourage us to research , get us to google so the past is not forgotten and hopefully we can prevent history repeating itself. This is why renaming Rosser avenue would likely be pointless and probably counterproductive. "
Okay, let's assume for a minute that you might be right. The street has been named Rosser Ave for over 138 years. So, using your logic, most people in Brandon should know all about Thomas Lafayette Rosser and his confederate past. In reality, I think more people than ever are aware of him now than ever. I don't think your reasoning holds.

Let's be honest, most people had no idea who he was despite years of using said street. It is only now, with the idea that maybe the street should be renamed, that people are finding out who he is and the things he did. I do not subscribe that we need monuments to monsters to remember who they are.

Again, nobody is removing him from the history book, just from a street sign.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Yes
6/24/2020 at 4:08 PM

RantsFromWinnipeg said "Okay, let's assume for a minute that you might be right. The street has been named Rosser Ave for over 138 years. So, using your logic, most people in Brandon should know all about Thomas Lafayette Rosser and his confederate past. In reality, I think more people than ever are aware of him now than ever. I don't think your reasoning holds.

Let's be honest, most people had no idea who he was despite years of using said street. It is only now, with the idea that maybe the street should be renamed, that people are finding out who he is and the things he did. I do not subscribe that we need monuments to monsters to remember who they are.

Again, nobody is removing him from the history book, just from a street sign. "
You are right that most people prior to this thread would not have known some of this history. But removing that name may put that history further from the reach of many peoples interest. I don’t think that you will find any poster here that is sympathetic to confederacy. Most of us simply want to prevent a repeat of those darker parts of our history and remembering it past is the best way to avoid a reoccurrence .
Orion's-Belt
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 579

Orion's-Belt
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 579

+1
6/24/2020 at 4:29 PM

Farmergeorge said "You are right that most people prior to this thread would not have known some of this history. But removing that name may put that history further from the reach of many peoples interest. I don’t think that you will find any poster here that is sympathetic to confederacy. Most of us simply want to prevent a repeat of those darker parts of our history and remembering it past is the best way to avoid a reoccurrence . "
Well said farmer George.
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

YES!!!
6/24/2020 at 5:25 PM

RantsFromWinnipeg said "Delete them all? Exactly how many streets in Brandon are named after confederate soldiers or Nazis? Your solution seems a smidge extreme.

edit: We can acknowledge history without perpetrating honours that were never earned. I'm not confusing anything. Well, I am a little concerned and confused why people need Rosser's name on a street sign to remember that he wasn't a very admirable individual. Funny how we remember other atrocities without building monuments to the perpetrators. What is it that is so special about the confederacy that we need monuments to remember these horrible people?

Edited by RantsFromWinnipeg, 2020-06-24 13:51:18"
If we are going down the road of negating names that can be linked to negative connotation, we must get rid of all naming after people. That is the only way to move from subjective case by case decisions based on emotion and the flavor of the day to an o:bjective set of guidelines that can be followed equally by everyone. Equality for all.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-24 17:38:57
tlr
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 633

tlr
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 633

The goal
6/24/2020 at 6:06 PM

JustASoul said "If we are going down the road of negating names that can be linked to negative connotation, we must get rid of all naming after people. That is the only way to move from subjective case by case decisions based on emotion and the flavor of the day to an o:bjective set of guidelines that can be followed equally by everyone. Equality for all.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-24 17:38:57"
is equality for all, not just for some. This the reason we are having this discussion. I think the flavor of the last three hundred years, is the issue. Some people are really getting tired of this flavor, and want it changed!
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

Well
6/24/2020 at 7:31 PM

tlr said "is equality for all, not just for some. This the reason we are having this discussion. I think the flavor of the last three hundred years, is the issue. Some people are really getting tired of this flavor, and want it changed! "
I have been very clear as to why I have the opinion I do. Perhaps you could elaborate on "the flavor of the last 300 years" and what that has to do with this.
ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

Moving forward
6/24/2020 at 9:48 PM

Seems to me a lot of this is based on naming streets and other notable features after people. The outcome of this debate and the petitions aside, seems pretty clear to me that we should immediately cease naming anything after people. The City and Province should revise their lists of approved names (streets, etc.) to remove people - just non-speaking sources ( ie. "Lilac" or "Amethyst" is okay, "Winnie the Pooh" and "Lester Pearson" are not).
md1
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 107

md1
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 107

1984
6/24/2020 at 9:52 PM

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Rosser
6/26/2020 at 10:03 AM

We’ve seen this thread active for quite a few days and I have yet to see anyone truly articulate how replacing a street name is removing history from the books and how a street name has any tangible and necessary connection to teaching people what not to do that can’t be learned in more appropriate yet still very accessible venues.

We also have yet to see anyone making the “if you change one, you have to change them all” argument provide even one example of a Brandon place name with comparable history let alone a number that would support any chance of there being any slippery slope problem here. Hard to protect against a slippery slope if you can’t prove there is one.

The biggest problem is that I sense that not everyone means the same thing when they say "history." At the core of this debate is history from the 1800s and what it says about this community when we continue to honour a key figure in an army whose core values were rooted in white supremacy and slavery as the world around us changes to remove such honours that could realistically be seen as condoning the uncondonible. On the other hand many have their own personal history with the street named Rosser... going for a cruise in a first car, buying a house, visiting a business, etc. For them that name might’ve taken on a life of its own without knowing what that naming of actually signifies (I know I didn’t). Nobody would for a second want to touch those folks' memories as we make this change in a wider historical context with the future in mind. I have no doubt folks for many years many will choose to have conversations about “that time on Rosser” and it isn’t like the newspaper is about to do an en-masse replace of the word “Rosser” in their large archive of local stories over the decades.... but there’s a big difference between that and having the name up on the sign going forward.

If there are truly a lot out there that have the primary stated concern in this of wanting to make sure that people remember and learn from history, the obvious middle ground solution here seems to be to commit to placing a small but not too loud plack at the site of the street formerly known as Rosser Avenue. Use that plaque to explain why for almost a century and a half the street was known by the Rosser name before we came to our senses to make a statement as part of a wider societal movement to strongly speak out against past movements rooted in maintaining race inequality. Perhaps even have reference from the plaque to a more expanded history section on the city website for those that would like to learn more about the who, what, why and how. From there make sure that books on the history are available at the library. Heck maybe there’s even a way of having the history approached at some point during the school curriculum since in Brandon we have this unique overlap with history South of the border that a lot of other communities don’t have. What a great chance to provide enduring opportunity to learn and at the same time make sure that the next steps in this city's history represent the diversity that's becoming such an increasingly big part of our makeup.

Council’s biggest challenge will be in factually speaking to concerns from the “can’t change history, learn from it” crowd. I suspect that at least begins with a deeper dive into Rosser’s history. The books are out there, there isn’t necessarily a need to re-invent the wheel and hire a full-on researcher.

On cost, maybe a cost exploration turns up that this will amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars like some are insinuating, but i'd like to see an actual factual look at those costs because that absolutely needs to be part of a realistic conversation at the decision-making level. I’ve seen some interest in some form of crowdfunding should the amount prove to be more than the city itself can cover. I’m still not convinced that the cost would be as much as some are assuming, but what a great way to make sure that that isn’t a constraint in Council doing what I strongly believe is the right thing. If the cost does prove to be more than what's realistic through any avenue then the conversation and community engagement can move forward on what the next best steps are within that constraint.
FarmerMike
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 405

FarmerMike
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 405

Adam
6/26/2020 at 10:33 AM

Ive been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread too, and Ive not seen good evidence to change the name either.

"This guy did bad things 200 years ago in a different time and a different place and I dont like what he did"

Be careful what mob mentality does to people. It divides more then it brings together. Ill guarantee that 99% of the people in favor of a name change on this thread had no idea two weeks ago who Rosser was.

Instead of change, bring discussion. Talk about it, talk about how bad and different life was back then, how much better it is now, and how much better it could be in the future after discussion.

Ripping down things you dont like isnt the way to do this. Changing a name wont erase history. Yet, you could find countless examples of bad people all through history, and we will never know what they did because there is no reminders of it. There are countless people who have done good, and same thing, we dont know about it because there is no record.

Like it or not, its history. Some is good, and some is bad. Bring it to the table, discuss it, learn how to make society better and move forward. But keep the reminders along the way so we know how we got to where we are now, and where we could be.
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

100%
6/26/2020 at 11:13 AM

FarmerMike said "Ive been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread too, and Ive not seen good evidence to change the name either.

"This guy did bad things 200 years ago in a different time and a different place and I dont like what he did"

Be careful what mob mentality does to people. It divides more then it brings together. Ill guarantee that 99% of the people in favor of a name change on this thread had no idea two weeks ago who Rosser was.

Instead of change, bring discussion. Talk about it, talk about how bad and different life was back then, how much better it is now, and how much better it could be in the future after discussion.

Ripping down things you dont like isnt the way to do this. Changing a name wont erase history. Yet, you could find countless examples of bad people all through history, and we will never know what they did because there is no reminders of it. There are countless people who have done good, and same thing, we dont know about it because there is no record.

Like it or not, its history. Some is good, and some is bad. Bring it to the table, discuss it, learn how to make society better and move forward. But keep the reminders along the way so we know how we got to where we are now, and where we could be. "
Agreed. Common sense suggestions here.
RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

RantsFromAfar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283

**************
6/26/2020 at 11:23 AM

Adam said "
We’ve seen this thread active for quite a few days and I have yet to see anyone truly articulate how replacing a street name is removing history from the books and how a street name has any tangible and necessary connection to teaching people what not to do that can’t be learned in more appropriate yet still very accessible venues.

We also have yet to see anyone making the “if you change one, you have to change them all” argument provide even one example of a Brandon place name with comparable history let alone a number that would support any chance of there being any slippery slope problem here. Hard to protect against a slippery slope if you can’t prove there is one.

The biggest problem is that I sense that not everyone means the same thing when they say "history." At the core of this debate is history from the 1800s and what it says about this community when we continue to honour a key figure in an army whose core values were rooted in white supremacy and slavery as the world around us changes to remove such honours that could realistically be seen as condoning the uncondonible. On the other hand many have their own personal history with the street named Rosser... going for a cruise in a first car, buying a house, visiting a business, etc. For them that name might’ve taken on a life of its own without knowing what that naming of actually signifies (I know I didn’t). Nobody would for a second want to touch those folks' memories as we make this change in a wider historical context with the future in mind. I have no doubt folks for many years many will choose to have conversations about “that time on Rosser” and it isn’t like the newspaper is about to do an en-masse replace of the word “Rosser” in their large archive of local stories over the decades.... but there’s a big difference between that and having the name up on the sign going forward.

If there are truly a lot out there that have the primary stated concern in this of wanting to make sure that people remember and learn from history, the obvious middle ground solution here seems to be to commit to placing a small but not too loud plack at the site of the street formerly known as Rosser Avenue. Use that plaque to explain why for almost a century and a half the street was known by the Rosser name before we came to our senses to make a statement as part of a wider societal movement to strongly speak out against past movements rooted in maintaining race inequality. Perhaps even have reference from the plaque to a more expanded history section on the city website for those that would like to learn more about the who, what, why and how. From there make sure that books on the history are available at the library. Heck maybe there’s even a way of having the history approached at some point during the school curriculum since in Brandon we have this unique overlap with history South of the border that a lot of other communities don’t have. What a great chance to provide enduring opportunity to learn and at the same time make sure that the next steps in this city's history represent the diversity that's becoming such an increasingly big part of our makeup.

Council’s biggest challenge will be in factually speaking to concerns from the “can’t change history, learn from it” crowd. I suspect that at least begins with a deeper dive into Rosser’s history. The books are out there, there isn’t necessarily a need to re-invent the wheel and hire a full-on researcher.

On cost, maybe a cost exploration turns up that this will amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars like some are insinuating, but i'd like to see an actual factual look at those costs because that absolutely needs to be part of a realistic conversation at the decision-making level. I’ve seen some interest in some form of crowdfunding should the amount prove to be more than the city itself can cover. I’m still not convinced that the cost would be as much as some are assuming, but what a great way to make sure that that isn’t a constraint in Council doing what I strongly believe is the right thing. If the cost does prove to be more than what's realistic through any avenue then the conversation and community engagement can move forward on what the next best steps are within that constraint.
"
That, “if you change one, you have to change them all” argument is also a cop out. For one, it suggests a ridiculous solution to the problem. Nobody is going to change every street name in town based on a person, it would be a mammoth undertaking. What they are really saying is, "If we cannot name it after a confederate general, then we cannot name it after anyone!" It's also a very convenient way of shutting down recognition of the historically oppressed. Think about it, if you put a moratorium on naming streets after people, then all of the deserving non-white people that we are now considering for said honour get shafted again. It ends up, purposely or not, being a racist solution to the problem. It's, "I'm still in power here with my privilege, screw you I'm taking my ball home".

Seriously, I lived in Brandon for about 40 years. I have a lot of memories of work and play in the city and Rosser Ave are a part of them. Here's the thing, 30 years from now I can tell my grandkids, "Yup, there used to be this business I worked at on ______ Ave, of course back then it was called Rosser Ave. We changed it when we realized he was a horrible person not deserving of the honour." Look at that, education without the name remaining! I wonder how I'll cope.

Frankly, at this point I think I'm done arguing this. It's the usual crowd that wants everything to stay the same. Frankly, if they could just come out and say, "I don't like change, so no!", I'd probably be more understanding. If it doesn't get changed now, it will eventually. That's just the way history is going. I'd be extremely surprised if the street was still named Rosser Ave in 50 years... heck I'd be kind of surprised if it is in 20 years. It won't lead to 50 streets being changed. I'd be surprised if we renamed even 1 per decade going forward.
FarmerMike
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 405

FarmerMike
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 405

Rants
6/26/2020 at 11:54 AM

(In my phone so I can’t quote you here)

Bingo, thanks for finally expressing how you really feel and your true motives are shown.

Don’t like people solutions? They are racist. Don’t like people’s attitudes? They are racist. This does not contribute to a meaningful discussion if you label everything you dont like racist...when as a matter of fact, your reply is extremely racist assuming that because people don’t want to name streets directly targets non whites.

That’s shameful.

The point you aren’t getting about those counter arguing you is that people don’t want to see any street names for a person. It doesn’t matter if they landed on the moon, cured cancer, or saved a million people. Every single person has something in their past another person will judge them for. It’s human nature not to think similarity as the mob around you. So, you don’t like Rosser for what he did, that’s ok. Maybe you wish to name it after another person that someone else might not like. Do you change it again and again? That’s the counter. Do not use names for streets and you avoid these discussions.

And sure, you can teach your kids about local history...even if it’s called 1st avenue.
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

Adam
6/26/2020 at 12:21 PM

While I have not given a strictly Brandon example of "if you change one, you have to change them all", I gave the example of Louis Riel which is quite significant to Manitoba. I look at Capitol Punishment and slavery as quite close to apples to apples from an objective sense (previously legal and accepted but no longer so). There are subjective differences but I am trying to make objective points.
Trevor B

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Trevor B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8881

Yet
6/26/2020 at 4:56 PM

JustASoul said "While I have not given a strictly Brandon example of "if you change one, you have to change them all", I gave the example of Louis Riel which is quite significant to Manitoba. I look at Capitol Punishment and slavery as quite close to apples to apples from an objective sense (previously legal and accepted but no longer so). There are subjective differences but I am trying to make objective points. "
to some, Louis Riel is a traitor. He was hanged for treason. He court-martialed Thomas Scott just because he didn't agree with the insurgency of the North-West Rebellion. That means Louis Riel doesn't have a clean past either.

While he is credited for Manitoba becoming a province, he didn't want it to be a province under the control of the Dominion of Canada.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Louis-Riel
JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

JustASoul
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 356

Thanks
6/26/2020 at 6:19 PM

Trevor B said "to some, Louis Riel is a traitor. He was hanged for treason. He court-martialed Thomas Scott just because he didn't agree with the insurgency of the North-West Rebellion. That means Louis Riel doesn't have a clean past either.

While he is credited for Manitoba becoming a province, he didn't want it to be a province under the control of the Dominion of Canada.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Louis-Riel "
This is the point I have been trying to make all along. Neither have clean pasts so if we are suddenly taking offence and deleting Rosser, we certainly must follow with the deletion of Riel. I was referring to the refusal of Riel to grant Clemency to Scott and Scoot's subsequent execution under capitol punishment which was legal at the time but not currently.

This is the basis of the argument that if we get rid of one, we must get rid of all. My opinion is we recognize, remember and learn from the past. If, however, deletion is the course chosen, it better be deleted equally.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-26 18:25:19
Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Farmergeorge
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1837

Yes
6/26/2020 at 7:38 PM

JustASoul said "This is the point I have been trying to make all along. Neither have clean pasts so if we are suddenly taking offence and deleting Rosser, we certainly must follow with the deletion of Riel. I was referring to the refusal of Riel to grant Clemency to Scott and Scoot's subsequent execution under capitol punishment which was legal at the time but not currently.

This is the basis of the argument that if we get rid of one, we must get rid of all. My opinion is we recognize, remember and learn from the past. If, however, deletion is the course chosen, it better be deleted equally.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-26 18:25:19"
What you say makes total sense, unfortunately so many people are embroiled in their own prejudices that they can’t be rational or see reason or sense.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Riel
6/26/2020 at 8:50 PM

JustASoul said "This is the point I have been trying to make all along. Neither have clean pasts so if we are suddenly taking offence and deleting Rosser, we certainly must follow with the deletion of Riel. I was referring to the refusal of Riel to grant Clemency to Scott and Scoot's subsequent execution under capitol punishment which was legal at the time but not currently.

This is the basis of the argument that if we get rid of one, we must get rid of all. My opinion is we recognize, remember and learn from the past. If, however, deletion is the course chosen, it better be deleted equally.

Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-26 18:25:19"
If there’s ever a future movement to name a place in Brandon after Riel or if you’d like to discuss his own history, kindly start a separate thread and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’d find a few folks interested in having that discussion.