Discussions

A lot of people don't realize how much of the fuel taxes are used for roads and maintenance and government programs. EV's are a novelty right now and getting a free ride. Electricity rates are so low here, some of the lowest in Canada/USA. If all the cars on the road no longer used fossil fuels and relied on electricity, what do you think will be taxed to make up the difference? It would just be a matter of time until the cost to charge a EV will be on par with filling up your tank with gas.

Gas tax is around 40 cents per litre. Even if electric vehicles paid the same tax as gas vehicles, the fuel cost would still be far lower.

I broadly support reduction of vehicle emissions and reducing use of fossil fuels, these are necessary goals. However as always it isn’t quite that simple. In Europe during the late 80’s and 90’s diesel passenger vehicles were widely promoted as being cleaner running and more environmentally friendly. In time it was discovered that they were overall more pollutive and provided little environmental benefit. During that time the passenger vehicle fleet went through a massive overhaul, a large percentage changing to diesel power while diesel fuel was taxed less heavily and associated road tax was less as an incentive. Quickly the financial incentive was reduced and on average those vehicles became more expensive to run than their gasoline counterparts. Given time this will happen with battery electric vehicles as more electricity for charging is required along with the required grid carrying capacity which will increase hydro costs. End of life battery costs are not yet being fully taken into account and battery lifespans are as yet an unknown quantity. There are other technologies available that have excellent potential to reduce fossil fuel dependence and reduce vehicle emissions, some of those technologies would also be better suited to heavy transport and heavy equipment applications including agriculture.  
The real solution to reduced vehicle running costs and emissions is when possible to drive less and reduce unnecessary journeys, while driving more fuel efficient passenger vehicles but many people are reluctant to consider that. Interestingly over the decades many of us have felt the desire to buy much larger, more luxurious and less fuel efficient vehicles which we replace more often while we drive many more miles than in the past, some trips necessary and some not.

My wife and I had some nice plans for going camping this summer, 3-4 hours away spots and potentially going out west for the honeymoon we never got thanks to Covid.  
 
Now we are rethinking this, with the price here being the highest I've ever seen in my life and it being even worse on the west coast the cost of fuel is more of a consideration than ever when in the past it was just a "yeah, little more expensive out there but is what it is"

https://apple.news/AD3yeiL41Scqk0LWq_bp3TQ  
 
Not sure if I know how to copy a link, but the CBC article says $2 gas in Vancouver.

After what has happened over the last decade, you have look for something to help, even if the idea of derivatives scare you, there is a place for them.

Diesel price is now up to 179.9 locally. A large $0.23 jump. I would say diesel prices this high and higher in other provinces will drive the cost of shipping way up. As an example to get from Winnipeg perimeter to Brandon would increase fuel costs $18.40 in fuel.

carbon tax increase kicks in to the tune of .10cents a litre,thank justin for that,fitting day for it lol

 
 
Edited by SouthCentral, 2022-03-04 19:30:57

should really put an exclamation point on the need for alternatives to oil and gas. I know those who love the oil and gas industry don't want to see alternatives. Right now we don't have any widespread and available alternatives. Hopefully auto manufacturers and other industries will now kick into high gear to give alternatives to the gas engines that we rely on now.  
 
The war in the Ukraine and the COVID pandemic has really shown limitations in global supply and demand.

Many gas stations across Vancouver, Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby and beyond were tipping $2.10 a litre Sunday, with the cheapest stations charging about $2 and a few even soaring upwards of $2.20.

The automotive industries are going hard in the development of electric vehicles. In our climate we will be one of the last to see the switch to electric. Most manufacturers offer multiple electric cars. With the massive semi conductor shortage it’s become harder to produce the vehicles. Even in Brandon now there are multiple charging stations popping up in the last year. I think Most people are reluctant to buy full electric right now until they prove themselves. The earlier hybrids from 10 years ago are basically obsolete and un repairable due to discontinued parts, limited production and massive repair costs. The change will come I just hope they find a cleaner way to produce and dispose of the batteries.

batteries can be recycled. There is a Canadian company that's doing it. It's our chance to create new industries here in Canada. The batteries with more development can be made so that they can be recycled and reused more efficiently. It just takes financing and the want to do it.  
 
Looks like what is the killer for current lithium batteries is during repeated charging a chemical layer forms on the cathode and reduces the ability to power traction motors. If they can reduce or eliminate that happening, the batteries will have a longer life. But again more research is needed.  
 
 
Unfortunally the oil and gas industry has made anything to do with electric the boogieman in order to keep the oil and gas the main industry. Sorry we really need to stop looking at this as the only fuel source.  
 
I think we should be looking at hydrogen power more seriously again. While at the moment getting sufficient hydrogen seems to be the issue. Just think the reaserch needs a kick in the arse to get more serious.  
 
And not just make things better for the environment but to also get away from this global market controlled resource we are dealing with today. If we didn't have speculators deciding what might happen and jacking up the prices in oil and gas we won't have these prices we see today. Is that war really going to affect our supply in North America, highly unlikely, but the markets seem to think it will. Just like how a refinery goes down in Texas and suddenly we have big gas price increase here in Canada. That shutdown likely has no impact on our gas supply here. But that's the way it's been setup.  
 
I also think Canada has a big opportunity to create domestic alternative energy industries. And it also just needs a big kick in the arse to get going. Instead we are more interested keeping the oil and gas industry happy. We would rather let other countries do it, then we are at their mercy.  
 
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe  
 
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844019347012#:~:text=Driven%20by%20the%20rapid%20uptakerecover%20all%20the%20valued%20components.

Russia has a lot in affecting oil prices as it is #2 behind USA in countries with the highest oil production USA THAN RUSSIA THAN SAUDIA ARABIA 2021 so brace for higher fuel prices and being passed done to the public for transporting every day items time for min wage to go up to help lower income

They are saying on CBC Radio that they are getting reports of gas being up to 173.9 in Winnipeg this afternoon.

5 p.m. today (March 7th) - Esso on southwest corner of 18th and #1 highway $1.679 and Shell across from the Esso $1.739!

Just spoke to some friends in the UK and the fuel pumps are closed down. They can’t even buy fuel, He ordered heating oil for the house several weeks ago and the supplier can’t get it.

Down the street from me. I actually said "yay" when I saw Costco was 1.89 last night still.  
 
Just to reiterate that people who tout EV as the only way have blinders on when it comes to ICE - one poster brought up what I mention each time I have a conversation with someone who is a green warrior - bikes do not pay for the millions we have put in to bike lane building and upkeep. And what do they think pavement is made of? Crushed rock and dreams? Nope - petrochemical compounds.  
 
Here in Metro Van all the older single family homes are being demolished as "land assembly" meaning multiple lots are bought up to throw huge apartment blocks up on. Many of the have underground parking, but more of them do not. So is each city going to rip up the sidewalks and replace them with charger ports every two car lengths? Not a chance, because guess where THAT infrastructure comes from - GAS TAXES. But then, you run into the issue that the grids simply cannot handle the power draws, so we are left with brownouts like in California where they have to ask citizens NOT to charge their EVs. Don't even get me started on the earth damaging practices to mine the minerals for batteries......  
We need to change, absolutely. We have destroyed the planet and oil is finite, but punishing everyone with this ridiculous carbon tax which is improperly applied gets no where.

"Don't even get me started on the earth damaging practices to mine the minerals for batteries...... "  
 
Oil extraction and refining is pretty earth damaging too. Most research indicates that the extra energy and emissions involved in producing an EV is more than made up for after about 5 years of use.

it will be a challenge for those in apartments, have street parking to be able to plug in and charge. That's why we need an onboard fuel cell to power and charge the vehicle.  
 
As for the mining, is it any different from coal mines, oil sand, diamond, gold, copper and any other mined resource? It makes me laugh when someone posts an image of the largest copper mine and try to say how dirty lithium mining is. Most lithium is actually in a water brine underground.  
 
It is pumped to the surface and into evaporation ponds. The Sun evaporates the water leaving the lithium deposit. The process for oil sand extraction is far more involved.  
 
https://www.thoughtco.com/lithium-production-2340123#:~:text=In%20order%20to%20extract%20lithiumincreasingly%20high%20concentrations%20of%20lithium.  
 
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/energy-sources-distribution/clean-fossil-fuels/oil-sands-extraction-and-processing/18094

me up when someone claims fossil fuel extraction and use is cleaner than lithium. Lithium by the way is #3 on the Periodic Table. It's a natural element. Lithium is used in thousands of products beside batteries.

I've been doing lots of reading and watching videos lately about infrastructure and making communities more sustainable and walkable. This has been an interest of mine for a long time. I get the sense that we are having a hard time, intellectually and imaginatively, visualizing solutions to our oil dependency because our entire communities/infrastructure have been zoned and built up around the car, especially starting in the post-war period. That's a difficult and expensive obstacle to overcome.  
 
There was a discussion on ebrandon last year or maybe the year before about Park Community Club. I remember as part of that convo it was about the derth of and consolidation of community clubs in general. I made the point that facilities like Park were built according to the old urban planning model - where everything is walkable. There would have been everything people needed for their day to day lives within a few blocks - shops, a school, entertainment etc. That changed starting in the 40s, and has accelerated to today where building non-car dependant communities is basically verboten and essentially illegal. We've had this situation for several generations now, so it's hard to envision anything else.  
 
The reality is that electric cars are a short-term solution. They are merely a stop-gap. It's absolutely critical that we rethink our zoning and infrastructure to bring the scale of our lives down to a sustainable level. I can't see how we can solve our oil problem long-term.  
 
It's also financial - car dependency contributes to urban sprawl, and essentially results in us building neighbourhoods that are unable to support themselves economically from taxation and the cost of services due to lack of density. This becomes a matter if economic fairness - the most dense and often poorest parts of a community end up essentially subsidising richer neighbourhoods because each acre of land in older developments is more productive, financially, than newer ones.  
 
There's a lot to work out going forward. There's also a lot at stake.

incredible spike.

"Crude oil plummeted $14/barrel after OPEC producers United Arab Emirates and Iraq said they would support increased production, potentially offsetting some of the supply disruptions caused by sanctions on Russian oil after its invasion of Ukraine." What's the bet that we'll see a 11% decrease at the pumps because of that announcement?

was £1.76 a litre, equal to around 2.97 dollars Canadian. Diesel was a little higher.

Imo.. prices will decrease on the weekend.. but it may increase tomorrow

never go down as fast as they rise. There is always an excuse as to why.

Story below re prices still expected to climb in the near term despite oil coming down from highs over the last few days…  
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/gasoline-prices-to-keep-climbing-in-spite-of-crude-oil-pullback-1.1735524