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Oil &; Gas protesters

Oil &; Gas protesters

Jandrew
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 9

Jandrew
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 9

Oil &; Gas protesters
1/5/2024 at 9:36 PM

For all the oil and gas protesters, who wants to cut oil please follow this picture for any help to show you mean business and want to make a difference!
Nana4gk
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 30

Nana4gk
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 30

Oil &; Gas protesters
1/6/2024 at 7:48 PM

Jandrew said "For all the oil and gas protesters, who wants to cut oil please follow this picture for any help to show you mean business and want to make a difference! "
Love it. You hit the nail on the head!!
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Gas
1/6/2024 at 8:26 PM

Nana4gk said "Love it. You hit the nail on the head!! "
It’s possible to acknowledge that gas in the short and even medium-term is still needed, but take issue with those that are in denial over what’s happening to the planet and resisting the kind of transition necessary to avoid what’s going to happen if global temps keep on the trajectory they’re on.

One of Canada’s biggest asset managers is also one of the world’s biggest players in renewable energy initiatives, yet the same company still bought a pipeline because we’re still going to need all energy hands on deck for some time.

The sooner we can move off of gas where it isn’t necessary, the better. Even using gas as a fallback/redundancy heat source and getting primary from cleaner means could go a long way. Heat pumps are one option that show a ton of promise. MB Hydro has extensive info at:
https://www.hydro.mb.ca/your_home/heating_and_cooling/cold_climate_air_source_heat_pumps/
Natural Resources Canada has extensive info on Climate Change, known impacts and Climate Change Adaptation in Canada at https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/what-adaptation/10025#
vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

Now this will probably be a stupid question
1/6/2024 at 8:42 PM

but why not put the air source heat pump indoors, where the air is already warmer, so it will take less energy to get the home to a warmer state.
A properly insulated home should not need an air conditioner in summer. I personally find that they make me feel chilled, even if set to 68-70F. No doubt as a result of the movement of air over the skin.
I'm sure there is a technical reason, but do not see any reference to such online.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

MB
1/6/2024 at 10:42 PM

I’d just want to with an open mind talk to a Manitoba installer or two and a couple people who have one in place. There are questions about operation in prairie winter extremities that I think are fair to ask. From this link they’re popular in Nordic countries but would want to know a little more first hand in Manitoba on installation and maintenance costs and cost to operate the auxiliary source when it kicks in:
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/10/30/do-heat-pumps-work-in-winter-experts-explain-why-nordic-countries-have-installed-the-most-

Suspect this is a little like EVs where there’s a set of folks insisting on filling early knowledge gaps with fear and misinfo, putting extra importance on first-hand info. When it comes to EV owners, when you talk to actual owners you find out where the false/misleading info is and where you do need to ask questions about what fits your lifestyle.
Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5038

too cold!
1/6/2024 at 11:29 PM

vegimite said "but why not put the air source heat pump indoors, where the air is already warmer, so it will take less energy to get the home to a warmer state.
A properly insulated home should not need an air conditioner in summer. I personally find that they make me feel chilled, even if set to 68-70F. No doubt as a result of the movement of air over the skin.
I'm sure there is a technical reason, but do not see any reference to such online. "
68-70 is ridiculously cold! That's only about 21C. I don't even keep my house that in the winter (usually it's 19-20).

Most a/c units are not really able to cool your house much more than 10C cooler than the outside anyway. That's by design/limitations. The hotter it is outside, the higher your a/c is supposed to be set at. So at 31C outside, it shouldn't be lower than 21 (70F). If it's 33, it should be 23 (74ish) etc.

We keep our a/c at 24. I will sometimes turn it down to 23 if it's not super hot but I need to kill the humidity. If it's really hot out (over 32 or so) I find I actually have to turn it UP because otherwise it's far too cold inside.

I mean, it's summer. You should be dressed appropriately for the weather. We shake our head at people who wear shorts in their house and turn with heat up to 23. The inverse is true as well.

We also have ceiling fans in most rooms. They do a great job keeping things feeling cooler and many days we don't have to turn the a/c on at all.
TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

k
1/7/2024 at 3:13 PM

vegimite said "but why not put the air source heat pump indoors, where the air is already warmer, so it will take less energy to get the home to a warmer state.
A properly insulated home should not need an air conditioner in summer. I personally find that they make me feel chilled, even if set to 68-70F. No doubt as a result of the movement of air over the skin.
I'm sure there is a technical reason, but do not see any reference to such online. "
Heat pumps move heat from one area to another. So if the heat source were inside the house, then one area of the house would be cooled down in order to warm up the other area.

Who the heck sets AC at 68F? lol. I have my furnace set at 68F right now and I'm wearing a sweater and long pants. When I'm wearing shorts and a light shirt in summer, I set the AC around 74F.
vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

vegimite
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 686

so
1/7/2024 at 4:16 PM

"Heat pumps move heat from one area to another. So if the heat source were inside the house, then one area of the house would be cooled down in order to warm up the other area. "
As you are now taking air from, say the basement, at 68f and are heating it with the air source pump, it will get warmer and as it is linked through the furnace will be pumped back through the home, including the basement. Where the cycle starts all over again. So you are not cooling the basement, but warming it to the same degree as the rest of he home.
I find that I'm comfortable in summer if the temperature is 68-70, especially if I'm outside working, so why would I not want indoors to be similar.
I rarely run the A/C, last year probably twice. I have an HME unit that is linked to the furnace, and that is just on ventilation throughout the summer months.
Also to be taken into account is the fact that as we age, then our bodies become less efficient at maintaining a correct body temperature. This is also affected by the amount of our body mass index.
And yes we do have ceiling fans, which apart from being noisy also blow a cooling breeze, so although my wife likes and uses them I do not.
So, back to the original question, what is the technical reason the pumps are located outside?
TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

TheBrofessor
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 161

.
1/7/2024 at 4:29 PM

Heat pumps move heat energy from a colder area to a warmer area. They're pretty much the same principle as an air conditioner. Running it with the heat source and heat destination both being inside the house would generate heat, but it would eliminate any efficiency advantage of the heat pump. With the source heat being the exterior of the house, it actually moves heat energy from outside the house to inside the house.

Imagine putting a window air conditioner unit on a table in the middle of the room. That's the same idea as running a heat pump with the input and output both being inside the same house.

Edited by TheBrofessor, 2024-01-07 16:33:03
one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

Source
1/7/2024 at 5:40 PM

Abbysmum said "68-70 is ridiculously cold! That's only about 21C. I don't even keep my house that in the winter (usually it's 19-20).

Most a/c units are not really able to cool your house much more than 10C cooler than the outside anyway. That's by design/limitations. The hotter it is outside, the higher your a/c is supposed to be set at. So at 31C outside, it shouldn't be lower than 21 (70F). If it's 33, it should be 23 (74ish) etc.

We keep our a/c at 24. I will sometimes turn it down to 23 if it's not super hot but I need to kill the humidity. If it's really hot out (over 32 or so) I find I actually have to turn it UP because otherwise it's far too cold inside.

I mean, it's summer. You should be dressed appropriately for the weather. We shake our head at people who wear shorts in their house and turn with heat up to 23. The inverse is true as well.

We also have ceiling fans in most rooms. They do a great job keeping things feeling cooler and many days we don't have to turn the a/c on at all. "
Please provide a link that shows an air conditioning unit can only cool a space to 10°c below the outside temperature.
PrimeConvoy

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 561

PrimeConvoy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 561

Not new
1/8/2024 at 11:58 AM

TheBrofessor said "Heat pumps move heat energy from a colder area to a warmer area. They're pretty much the same principle as an air conditioner. Running it with the heat source and heat destination both being inside the house would generate heat, but it would eliminate any efficiency advantage of the heat pump. With the source heat being the exterior of the house, it actually moves heat energy from outside the house to inside the house.

Imagine putting a window air conditioner unit on a table in the middle of the room. That's the same idea as running a heat pump with the input and output both being inside the same house.

Edited by TheBrofessor, 2024-01-07 16:33:03"
Taking the heat out of one thing and dumping it somewhere is the base principal for heat pumps. The concept isn't exactly new, or even rare in Manitoba. We have been installing heat pumps to heat our homes for decades here in Manitoba, we just call it geothermal.

The major premise is that you don't have to put a ton of resources into mining a product to burn in order to generate heat. Rather, we take the heat form one thing (the earth) and put it where we want it...the best part is, that heat source will always be there no matter how long or intensely you use it, the same cannot be said for gas and oil.

The same principal works with ERV's, which is what I have in my home. It uses the exhaust to warm the incoming air, with a little help. This system is actually a code requirement in Manitoba and has been for many years.
don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

Using in house heat
1/9/2024 at 7:08 PM

I just wonder how many people there are out there who have a basement that is not finished.
When we are talking of heat pumps I imagine there are some houses that have a basement that isn’t finished and would be a better location for a heat pump, the temperature in our basement is 10 degrees C or 50 degrees F, this would provide a much greater amount than would be available with outside temperatures being -20.
Saw an article in the last 3 weeks that talked about heat batteries as opposed to chemical batteries, for myself I consider it a good start.
one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

Even if that would work
1/10/2024 at 9:15 AM

don brown said "I just wonder how many people there are out there who have a basement that is not finished.
When we are talking of heat pumps I imagine there are some houses that have a basement that isn’t finished and would be a better location for a heat pump, the temperature in our basement is 10 degrees C or 50 degrees F, this would provide a much greater amount than would be available with outside temperatures being -20.
Saw an article in the last 3 weeks that talked about heat batteries as opposed to chemical batteries, for myself I consider it a good start. "
Let's just pretend your suggestion would work in winter. Albeit very noisy and inefficiency inside your house. It would never work in the summer months to cool your house
PrimeConvoy

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 561

PrimeConvoy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 561

The solution
1/10/2024 at 9:50 AM

one more thing.. said "Let's just pretend your suggestion would work in winter. Albeit very noisy and inefficiency inside your house. It would never work in the summer months to cool your house "
Here in Manitoba, many new buildings have what is called an ERV. It works on a similar principal as an HRV, but it can also be used in warm temperatures. It essentially works as a boost to your heating system by drawing energy from the warm and moist exhaust. And, when installed in a home that is substantially air-tight (which is the most effective form of heat loss prevention), it can act as the home's primary source of heat in the winter.

The building I live in has ERV's in every unit and as a result our hydro bill has never gone above $30 in the winter, and my unit is over 1,000 square feet. Our furnace only kicks in when the temperature outside dips below -20°. This winter, our furnace kicked in for the first time on January 9th.

Edited by PrimeConvoy, 2024-01-10 09:52:43
one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

one more thing..
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 493

I'm sorry
1/10/2024 at 1:00 PM

PrimeConvoy said "Here in Manitoba, many new buildings have what is called an ERV. It works on a similar principal as an HRV, but it can also be used in warm temperatures. It essentially works as a boost to your heating system by drawing energy from the warm and moist exhaust. And, when installed in a home that is substantially air-tight (which is the most effective form of heat loss prevention), it can act as the home's primary source of heat in the winter.

The building I live in has ERV's in every unit and as a result our hydro bill has never gone above $30 in the winter, and my unit is over 1,000 square feet. Our furnace only kicks in when the temperature outside dips below -20°. This winter, our furnace kicked in for the first time on January 9th.

Edited by PrimeConvoy, 2024-01-10 09:52:43"
I'm sorry but I'm going to say you're wrong.

HRVs and ERVs are very similar in their application.

I'll keep it basic and brief.

In winter application they take stale humid inside air pull it across a media box/heat exchanger whilest doing so the unit pulls in cold, dry air from outside passes that through different fins on the same media box/heat exchanger and picks up SOME of the heat from the leaving air.
The ERV/HRV then dumps that air into the return air duct of a furnace. Which is then HEATED further by the furnace heating system to bring it upto a comfortable temperature and discharged to the space.

HRVs/ERVs can be used without a furnace but if they're pulling in raw -20°c air then they will have an inline duct heating element much the same as a furnace to heat up the incoming air.

HRVs and ERVs are a code requirement for tight home construction to help with air quality and humidity issues not to heat your home.

Hope that helps

Edited by one more thing.., 2024-01-10 13:01:33
Daddy-0
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 19

Daddy-0
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 19

Manitoba Hydro Backup
1/10/2024 at 7:30 PM

During heavy use periods of electricity in Manitoba the backup is a natural gas generator in Brandon. It was started up this winter season in Oct of 2023 due to low water table levels at the hydro generating stations. I am not aware of how often it is operated or if it is continually operated. I’m also not sure if it more efficient and environmentally conscious to use an electric heat pump in the winter if we have to supplement the power grid with a natural gas operated generator