Discussions

Revoking Canadian citizenship of Canadian dual citizens convicted of terrorism makes no sense to me. From a standpoint of national security and protecting Canadian citizens at home and abroad it seems to me it would be wiser to keep terrorists behind bars here where we know where they are rather than deporting them to another country and losing all control over them. The country we deport them to may not want to or may not be able to keep them incarcerated. This could lead to them continuing their terrorist activities. If they are kept  
within the Canadian prison system they can be monitored and released only when it is deemed safe to do so. For the sake of security keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Our bleeding heart, sissy justice system has any better chance of keeping these people from doing harm. There are many repeat offenders roaming our streets at any given time.  
 
Just one example occurred last week...  
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/basil-borutski-triple-homicide-wilno-1.3239776  
 
And without getting into the whole debate again, some people question whether Omar Khadar should have been let out.  
 
When life in prison means a person could be out in under ten years what teeth does our justice system really have? Paul Bernardo got life in prison, but can be out shortly and is already applying for parole - and it has not been 20 years yet. His accomplice, Karla Homolka, got life in prison and was out in 12 years and not lives in the Carribean...  
 
I am not sure keeping them here under lock and key is as effective as we think it should be. Of course the alternative is to send them away where they can become better trained terrorists....I simply don't know.

Can't play by our rules... you're out of the club. The fact is, I would be happy if when they finished serving their sentence, they're kicked out of the country. And it shouldn't just be for the convicted terrorists. Any significant crime done should have anyone with dual citizenship be put under review for revoking.  
 
Convicted of a felony or a capital offence? ... Goodbye!  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.  

I disagree with it on principle. The fact that our citizenship can be revoked for any reason not relating to actual immigration process fraud is just wrong to me. It makes our citizenship less...authentic somehow.

Mela said "I disagree with it on principle. The fact that our citizenship can be revoked for any reason not relating to actual immigration process fraud is just wrong to me. It makes our citizenship less...authentic somehow. "

our citizenship something to be cherished. Plotting a mass attack on the citizens of this country does not make you a Canadian, it makes you a terrorist who has no business being allowed to stay in this great nation we call Canada.  

& values say that it's wrong however . ... a convicted terrorist obviously has a different set of principles & values than I would hope Canadians hold so revoke their citizenship. (I'm an immigrant BTW with Canadian citizenship).

I don't think any dual citizenship should be allowed, how can you have allegiance to two distinctly seperate countries?

Is it really for principle or entitlement? Once anyone is in, no matter what they do, either within or outside our borders... these convicted offenders can just hang around here and continue being a possible threat to Canadian citizens? They do have somewhere else to stay. Or do you truly believe our justice system actually rehabilitates the convicted?  
 
Why should Canada spend our resources tracking these individuals after they are released? In my opinion, it would be cheaper and easier for us, just to hand over their other passport and pay for the plane ticket. If these people have any inkling to resort back to their previous behavior... Let them do it somewhere else. Sorry it sounds selfish, but it's truthful. We can't change their thoughts, beliefs or idealisms, nor can't monitor them for the rest of their lives, due to limitations like civil rights and budgetary reasons. So what do you think we as a country should do? Let them get back to their lives? ...Perhaps allow themselves to register to vote?  
 
Having them stay, devalues our Canadian citizenship within the eyes of the civilized world. Enough of the entitlements. "Old stock or new stock", we as Canadians, should feel both blessed and that we've earned our citizenship by having an admiration towards our country. And if some don't feel the same way and don't respect our laws, civil rights & freedoms, political liberties, and our way of life... they don't deserve the entitlement to remain Canadian.  
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Full Canadian citizens that are recruited overseas by ISIS or other terrorist organizations?  
 
There have been dozens of young Canadian born men and women from the Calgary/Vancouver areas who have been radicalized in recent years - what do we do in that kind of situation?

foxtrot11 said "Full Canadian citizens that are recruited overseas by ISIS or other terrorist organizations?     There have been dozens of young Canadian born men and women from the Calgary/Vancouver areas who have been radicalized in recent years - what do we do in that kind of situation? "

have been revoked, they can and will be charged in abstention and if they return will be prosecuted. Under the UN no country can leave a person stateless so they will remain Canadian.  
 
We do need to do away with dual citizenship completely and that goes for Mr. Mulcaire as well.

You're not wrong Snowman5. I don't disagree with your logic. In my gut, I only feel that once Citizenship is obtained through the legitimate immigration process, any revocation other than for fraud opens the door a nudge and begs the question of what else will become grounds for loss of citizenship. Suddenly you have hundreds of thousands of "new stock" wondering just how Canadian they are for the rest of their lives.  
 
I don't want terrorists sucking up my tax dollars. The fact that anyone would go through the ridiculously long battle of becoming a Canadian citizen just to play out a terrorist plot after many years in Canada makes me sick. I don't know the right answer. I just feel that revoking their citizenship doesn't really solve anything and our government will end up spending a pretty penny working diplomatically with other nations to re-patriate convicted terrorists. I don't see that being as smooth as taking away their passport and putting them on a plane.

Mela said "You're not wrong Snowman5. I don't disagree with your logic. In my gut, I only feel that once Citizenship is obtained through the legitimate immigration process, any revocation other than for fraud opens the door a nudge and begs the question of what else will become grounds for loss of citizenship. Suddenly you have hundreds of thousands of "new stock" wondering just how Canadian they are for the rest of their lives.     I don't want terrorists sucking up my tax dollars. The fact that anyone would go through the ridiculously long battle of becoming a Canadian citizen just to play out a terrorist plot after many years in Canada makes me sick. I don't know the right answer. I just feel that revoking their citizenship doesn't really solve anything and our government will end up spending a pretty penny working diplomatically with other nations to re-patriate convicted terrorists. I don't see that being as smooth as taking away their passport and putting them on a plane. "

we would have to work diplomatically with other nations. They hold citizenship to one of those countries and will be sent home. They will no longer be Canadian and are not entitled to anything from our country.  
Most of these people will hold at least one other passport besides their Canadian one. Even Mr. Mulcaire holds a French and a Canadian passport. Of course it would be nice if we could export him but alas!!

SJK  
 
For example, I believe three or four of the Toronto 18 were immigrants from countries that do not allow dual citizenship. What do we do with them when their former country says they're our problem now?  
 
The far greater issue, in my eyes, is that this is not a deterrent to terrorists wanting to immigrate, but more of an encouragement to recruit Canadian nationals into terrorist activity because they can never have their Citizenship revoked if they are born into it, right?

Mela said "SJK     For example, I believe three or four of the Toronto 18 were immigrants from countries that do not allow dual citizenship. What do we do with them when their former country says they're our problem now?     The far greater issue, in my eyes, is that this is not a deterrent to terrorists wanting to immigrate, but more of an encouragement to recruit Canadian nationals into terrorist activity because they can never have their Citizenship revoked if they are born into it, right? "

former countries cancel their citizenship's? I know dual citizens who are Canadian and it has been the other country not recognizing the Canadian citizenship as was the case with Fahmy.  
But if what you say is true then they will have to stay in jail because as per the UN we cannot leave them stateless.

SJK said "    Mela said "SJK     For example, I believe three or four of the Toronto 18 were immigrants from countries that do not allow dual citizenship. What do we do with them when their former country says they're our problem now?     The far greater issue, in my eyes, is that this is not a deterrent to terrorists wanting to immigrate, but more of an encouragement to recruit Canadian nationals into terrorist activity because they can never have their Citizenship revoked if they are born into it, right? " former countries cancel their citizenship's? I know dual citizens who are Canadian and it has been the other country not recognizing the Canadian citizenship as was the case with Fahmy.   But if what you say is true then they will have to stay in jail because as per the UN we cannot leave them stateless. "

To be fair, maybe I'm misunderstanding the grey area there.

My grandfather was not born in this country, but became a Canadian citizen. "Living in Canada is a privilege not a right" was what he said, and "something that should not be taken for granted"

The main reason most of you want their citizenship revoked relies more upon having little faith in our justice system to deal with these people properly. My main concern about revoking canadian citizenship is how terrorism is actually defined and what constitutes an act of terror. Some parts of the terror bill look awfully ambiguous as to who can be called a terrorist.

There are a lot of things and responsibilities of being a Canadian. If a person is an immigrant who is a terrorist or ties to one, fought against us, or committed any crime, in my opinion, you should be deported and banned from coming back to Canada. The safety and well being of legit Canadians trumps any remote 'rights' that the charter may say. Having said that, I wouldn't be a surprise that some lame judge would say differently.

the deportation issue is rather simple, just strap a parachute on and air drop them over their country of origin, easy peasy lemon squeezy

At a citizenship ceremony not so long ago, a citizenship judge told an entire room of people that from this day forward they were Canadian, and would have the same rights and responsibilities as any other Canadian.  
 
As a new Canadian it worries me deeply that some Canadians don't share his opinion, and that as a foreign born person, I am somehow less deserving of these rights.  
 
If any Canadian commits a crime then they should be punished according to the law, and that law should be the same as that for all Canadians regardless of their country of birth. I thought that equality of all citizens was one of the fundamental things Canada stood for.  
Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Terrorists should be punished for their crimes - and harshly at that..  
It is a betrayal of trust and of all Canadians to engage in these activities; however, Canada gave these people Citizenship, and it is our collective responsibility as Canadians to deal with them..  
 
Finally, it is a mistake to assume that just because someone has dual citizenship they have divided loyalties.  
I'm a Canadian citizen, Canada is my home. I will defend it if necessary, and as a British Citizen I have the right to, and will, demand the same from my 'other' country.  
 
And so ends my annual eBrandon post/rant...

What scares me is that Harper could declare the person protesting a pipeline as a "terrorist" and threatened with deportation. With C-51, it is a very real possibility that evidence can be manufactured without any oversight to question the "terrorist" label.  
 

In the case of someone with Dual Citizenship becoming a terrorist and/or planning terrorist attacks against the people of Canada, I agree with revoking their Canadian citizenship. If we put them in prison here, our "bleeding heart" legal system will, no doubt, let them out after a short period of time. They'll be placed on parole, maybe they'll be able to sue the people of Canada too. The there's also the possibility that they could radicalize other inmates while in prison.  
 
We would be better off to get them out of our country. Make sure that every other country that we have diplomatic relations with is notified that they are a terrorist and that their Canadian citizenship and passport have been cancelled. I could also agree with the idea of revoking the Canadian citizenship of anyone from Canada who travels to another part of the world to join a terrorist cause. They do not get to come back here. They've chosen their loyalty. If they are willing to die over there, then that's exactly what they can do. Might not be the easiest thing to do, but if we have the will to do it, we can find a way. If you insist on keeping them here, then you better be willing to exclude them from the protection of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, our Constitution, and build a special "Gitmo" style prison to permanently house them in. Basically, they'd never get out. Never.  
 
No. I like the idea of revoking their citizenship and making sure that they don't ever come back. For one thing, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper.  
 
 
 
Edited by Triplethreat, 2015-09-29 21:17:22

Rob54 said "At a citizenship ceremony not so long ago, a citizenship judge told an entire room of people that from this day forward they were Canadian, and would have the same rights and responsibilities as any other Canadian.     As a new Canadian it worries me deeply that some Canadians don't share his opinion, and that as a foreign born person, I am somehow less deserving of these rights.     If any Canadian commits a crime then they should be punished according to the law, and that law should be the same as that for all Canadians regardless of their country of birth. I thought that equality of all citizens was one of the fundamental things Canada stood for.   Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Terrorists should be punished for their crimes - and harshly at that..   It is a betrayal of trust and of all Canadians to engage in these activities; however, Canada gave these people Citizenship, and it is our collective responsibility as Canadians to deal with them..     Finally, it is a mistake to assume that just because someone has dual citizenship they have divided loyalties.   I'm a Canadian citizen, Canada is my home. I will defend it if necessary, and as a British Citizen I have the right to, and will, demand the same from my 'other' country.     And so ends my annual eBrandon post/rant... "

This would apply to people with Dual Citizenship who take up terrorist causes and plot or commit terrorist acts against Canada. No one is talking about revoking the citizenship of regular criminals.

katwalk1909 said "What scares me is that Harper could declare the person protesting a pipeline as a "terrorist" and threatened with deportation. With C-51, it is a very real possibility that evidence can be manufactured without any oversight to question the "terrorist" label.     "

If they're just protesting, then no, they are not a terrorist. However, if they blow up the pipeline they would be a terrorist. The question would then be whether they are a domestic terrorist, in which case, they should be imprisoned for a long, long time, but not deported, or whether they are affiliated with a foreign based terrorist organization, in which case, they would be stripped of their Canadian citizenship and deported.  
 
Edited by Triplethreat, 2015-09-29 21:36:02

Triplethreat said "    katwalk1909 said "What scares me is that Harper could declare the person protesting a pipeline as a "terrorist" and threatened with deportation. With C-51, it is a very real possibility that evidence can be manufactured without any oversight to question the "terrorist" label.     " If they're just protesting, then no, they are not a terrorist. However, if they blow up the pipeline they would be a terrorist. The question would then be whether they are a domestic terrorist, in which case, they should be imprisoned for a long, long time, but not deported, or whether they are affiliated with a foreign based terrorist organization, in which case, they would be stripped of their Canadian citizenship and deported.     Edited by Triplethreat, 2015-09-29 21:36:02"

... you're not a terrorist if you're just protesting, but with increasing draconian measures in an effort to curb terrorism, how long do you think it will stay like that?  
 
I seem to recall people asking why Idle No More protests weren't considered terrorism...

you do the crime, your Canadian citizenship is Revoked,/drugs, sex, terrorist, theft you are out of this country. I for one would rather pay to keep them out of Canada than pay to babysit them in jail at $80,000 per year, just an estimate

my22cents said "you do the crime, your Canadian citizenship is Revoked,/drugs, sex, terrorist, theft you are out of this country. I for one would rather pay to keep them out of Canada than pay to babysit them in jail at $80,000 per year, just an estimate "

you said "theft you are out of this country"  
 
Does this apply to all, or only those on your personal list ? I am a third generation Canadian. If I steal a new car from my neighbout, where would you send me ?  
 
Which people or groups would have their Canadian citizenship revoked for offences related to drugs ? Would it be for simple possession, or trafficking, and in what amounts ?  
 
How many generations do we go back ?  
 
Where would you send aboriginal offenders ?  
 
There have been a number of cases where Canadians were sentenced to long terms in prison for murder, and after a decade or more it is discovered that the conviction was an error. What do you propose for compensation for those who have their Citizenship revoked and may have sufferred torture in the country they were sent to ?  
 
If you are sentenced in error, are you prepared to have your citizenship revoked ?  
 
This seems to me to be much more an issue of racism than law and order.  
 
Edited by standard standard h8r, 2015-09-30 09:29:33

Rather than worry about deportation we should work towards returning Capital Punishment which is a real deterrent.

Netwalker said "Rather than worry about deportation we should work towards returning Capital Punishment which is a real deterrent. "

It absolutely is a deterrent. Just look at the United States. It still has capital punishment and the crime rate is much lower there, with very few murders.  
 
Also look to Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. They have capital punishment for a wide variety of offences and they never have any problems with people committing crimes or hurting each other.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by standard standard h8r, 2015-09-30 12:13:06

standard standard h8r said "    my22cents said "you do the crime, your Canadian citizenship is Revoked,/drugs, sex, terrorist, theft you are out of this country. I for one would rather pay to keep them out of Canada than pay to babysit them in jail at $80,000 per year, just an estimate " you said "theft you are out of this country"     Does this apply to all, or only those on your personal list ? I am a third generation Canadian. If I steal a new car from my neighbout, where would you send me ?     Which people or groups would have their Canadian citizenship revoked for offences related to drugs ? Would it be for simple possession, or trafficking, and in what amounts ?     How many generations do we go back ?     Where would you send aboriginal offenders ?     There have been a number of cases where Canadians were sentenced to long terms in prison for murder, and after a decade or more it is discovered that the conviction was an error. What do you propose for compensation for those who have their Citizenship revoked and may have sufferred torture in the country they were sent to ?     If you are sentenced in error, are you prepared to have your citizenship revoked ?     This seems to me to be much more an issue of racism than law and order.     Edited by standard standard h8r, 2015-09-30 09:29:33"

did you apply for citizenship,probably not, I was born here if I am in trouble with the law, Canada is stuck with me/you. I am thinking of something like Vince Lee 2 years citizenship and he has cost a family and Canadians very much ,send him back to were he came from we don't need him or other like him in this country