Discussions

The few times I’ve come on eBrandon recently to get involved in a political discussion, I’ve found I’ve been returning to the same issues of inequality, which involves poverty, homelessness, hunger, and so on. And I seem to be confronted by the same responses from different users time and time again. People respond by asking when confronted by the issue of poverty, “Why should I help someone out?” and with a broad stroke paint anyone’s predicament as evidence of laziness, or the lack of “hard work”. In my opinion, that’s an absolute fiction. Every person has a different story to tell. Very few people in their right mind sit idle all day, at least voluntarily.  
 
They say that if you work hard enough, you’ll become successful. There are some success stories that can attest to this, many eBrandon users, I’m sure, will be eager to tell. But many of the success stories boil down to being in the right place at the right time. If you’re in the right position when opportunity comes along, you’ll be successful. Look at Saskatchewan, potash took off because the global need for fertilizer grew and Saskatchewan had already developed the mines. If no one had discovered the potash or perhaps discovered some more viable fertilizer in another country, Potash Corp wouldn’t exist. They were ready at the right time. Any NHL hockey player would not be where they are if it wasn’t for their parents who enrolled them in hockey at a young age. Sure they’ve worked hard at playing hockey, but what would they be doing if born in a country without winter? Would they be as successful? How many didn’t make it because they broke their leg just before tryouts?  
 
Look at billionaire Donald Trump. He’s rich because his dad was rich. The same can and will be said about his children. Look at the richest man in Canada, David Thomson, 3rd Baron Thomson of Fleet, worth 25 billion dollars. Well, you don’t get a name like that if you come from a lower class family. His father was rich and his father’s father was also rich and so on. Canada’s second wealthiest man, Galen Weston also had a wealthy father. Canada’s third wealthiest, Jim Pattison, is a little different. He was cleaning cars at a dealership and the salesman was away for the day so he sold his first car by chance. He dropped out of university and had enough people sell cars for him to become a billionaire after persuading the Royal Bank to give him an outlandish loan 8 times the branch limit. What luck! We all know the history of General Motors anyway. These are Canada’s most wealthy people, excluding Trump. It’s difficult to say whether they worked hard. I don’t know them personally, but Canadians look to them as great monuments of success.  
 
I want to stress this point: Success isn’t so much about how much money you have in the bank, but the contentment you find with yourself and your life. A person can be poor and very happy just as a rich person can lead a life of misery. A person cannot be happy alone. And when you are around others, they help you and you help them. Your friends and family listen when you need to be heard. They comfort you when you’re feeling down. They make you laugh and entertain you with their stories and jokes. And I think most people feel that they can only hope to give back to their friends and family as they receive. The same goes for city life. The friendly strangers on the street say “hello”. The workers at the grocery store help you with your food and wish you a nice day. Some stranger out for a stroll picks up the garbage on your front lawn. The friendly mailperson brings you the mail. The farmer produces for you. And the musicians and authors and movie makers and painters and sculptures create art that fills your life with colour and emotion, and challenges you to look at the world from alternative perspectives. We share the world with these people, animals too, and so we should live in ways that benefit everyone, not only ourselves. We should embrace valuable work and really think about what benefits we offer through our work in the short time we live upon this planet. We need to create new pathways to greater opportunities for one another. And I’m not here to tell you what to do or to judge your decisions. We all need to think: Are you producing or applying products that poison the water, soil, and air? Do you manufacture weapons that will be used to kill or harm people? Not likely here. Are you being supportive of your community members? Tell me or say it to yourself, what is your purpose here?

so are people selfish if they say here is the advice and skills to help your self or our people selfish if they expect others to do it for them?  
 
btw- the example of the guy that convinced the bank to give him a huge loan wasn't lucky, he had skills and was willing to take the risk obliviously.

don't think its selfish to expect to be able to keep the money you have earned and pay a reasonable share of taxes. I believe that my purpose on earth, as an abled body and mind human, is to be a contributing member of society and not a drain. Cause no harm, be respectful of others and support my child.

I'll give someone a shove in the right direction and words of encouragement, thats more than I ever got.  
 
But I'll never hand out money for nothing, and neither would I ever ask for money that I didn't earn, or ask for anything for that matter. I'd rather let nature take its course than be a burden to anyone else.  
 
Is that selfish?

If people in Brandon are selfish, then I guess people all over North America are selfish. The idea of providing goods or a service (such as food and shelter) and profiting from it seems to be the basis of your judgement of people being selfish. In this thread you’re suggesting that if someone is wealthy they were either born into it or lucky. No doubt that happens, but you do a great disservice to those people that picked themselves up by their own bootstraps and made something happen for themselves. You may not be aware of it, but most of your ordinary, well to do people in these parts made themselves what they are today by serious hard work and dedication to the task of making their way in this world.  
 
Being in the right place at the right time, if that were to happen a person would be a fool not to take advantage of that. More often though, people work toward a goal and make the opportunity happen, like the aforementioned Jim Pattison used his skills to get the bank to loan him more money than they normally would. You might call it luck but it’s more like chutzpah, having the balls to go out and secure that loan and risk loosing your shirt.  
 
Anyway, most of the people I know that have done well for themselves have done so by hard work. A lot of them spending years working 60 – 80 hours a week while some of their less successful friends spent sitting in coffee shops, bars, or in front of the TV wondering why they were struggling to make ends meet (not a new problem by the way).  
 
I might add that a lot of these self made people, along the way, employed many people, passed along some of the wisdom life’s lessons had given them, volunteered for charitable organizations, held office at at a municipal level or higher and have done many things to help their community move forward.  
 
I think your idea of a selfish person is quite different than mine.  

......that the few people in our society who are genuine parasites are used as an example, and touted as a valid excuse for ignoring all the truly needy.  
 
There are those who hide their feelings of guilt behind rhetoric and supposed moral outrage.  
 
And of course, just as there are genuine parasites, there are those who are selfish and simply do not care if there are homeless, if there is rampant poverty, bigotry etc.  
 
All a person can really do is continue to be the change you wish to see in the world. We, all of us, have a social responsibility. There are those who choose to shirk it, there are those who choose to do something. So long as the latter outnumber the former we , our society, will make progress in the battle against hunger, poverty et al and I believe that is still the case.

I'm all for social programs that help truly disadvantaged individuals, and making sure that they have a good quality of life, even beyond basic living.  
 
Honestly though, the older I get and the more I work, the more it becomes obvious that those individuals are relatively few compared to the many who simply take advantage of this system.  
 
I honestly don't know what to do about it.

I believe all people are basically selfish and the longer I live, the more I see it, clearer all the time. It starts as very young children and goes clear through until death. It is found in our homes (children...whether 1 child or 10, & in marriages & divorces too), schools (from the top brass, to the staff, through to the children), workplaces, churches of all sorts, politics, etc. Most are never satisfied and so the attitude keeps going. Money may appear to satisfy, but if you look at the rich, they are often broken in some way and not truly satisfied.  
 
"Me first" is a basic natural, however wrong, attitude. It is the basis for greed, manipulation, bullying, lack of accountability and guilt about what their actions do negatively to others...all in the name if making oneself monetarily/possession rich, being part of "progress", becoming "set" or "getting ahead" or"climbing the ladder", "looking good" "feeling good/satisfied" or "fitting in". Nothing truly good comes of these things as their are usually casualties along the way that some ignore or hide in some cases behind their crooked and misguided rationale. Often the very ones doing so do not want to recognize their attitude or do not care.  
 
Excuses abound to rationalize this attitude and actions. Sometimes none are given and one just plows others over. There is no way that being nice and generous after you have "made it" makes it right to have hurt others on the way to "success".  
 
Yes, some poor people are lazy...and some of the rich or those who are on the top are lazy. It is across the board. Some try to get whatever they can without trying to out any effort into it...monetarily rich or poor.  
 
But on the other hand, some are genuine people who work hard, live on next to nothing, are wise about their money and so on. Some are fortunate, but some because of life circumstances, lack of "lucky breaks", cannot get ahead and even have a hard time getting by no matter how hard they work or how much they go to school. It is true.  
 
What is important is to recognize that one can change this wrong attitude at any age and in any circumstance one finds themselves. You can let the selfishness rule your mind, words and actions, or you can be one who facilitates change. Kindness and understanding, being humble, listening and & treating others fairly, and being generous (whether monetarily wealthy or not) goes a long way.  
 
I know that if some on here read this, they will pick my response apart because I will have stepped or stomped on someone's toes. Such is selfishness (carefully re-read above). I am merely stating what I have observed.  
 
How I often wish life was good to all in all areas of life, but such is not the case. I choose to try to be unselfish many times daily, because like everyone, I am selfish too and am not perfect. I try to consider how my actions and words influence others. It is hard, but at least I am trying. I can't change eBrandon, my community or the world, but maybe little by little I CAN make a small or even a big difference in somebody's life by making a concious decision to do so each day.  
 
Edited by Flutterby, 2015-10-26 08:57:43

Reading the above comments, I cannot help but wonder if people are talking selfishness, materialism or using the two interchangeably.

I too have given this much thought and was trying to think of something intelligent to say on the topic, but I just have to say that your comments basically cover my feeling on this subject.  
 
Sometimes when people talk of family business they talk of a three generation cycle, one genartion starts something, the next generation builds on it, and the third generation destroys it. I sometimes wonder if the same does not apply to societies as well. I hate to say this but I see entitlement all around me, and likely am a part of it also. I don't know if a person can ever change it, seem to be human nature.

"If you have 10$ to your name, and no dept, your richer than 80% of people in north America" lots of people really don't have as much money as we think. The bank owns us because we have to work to pay our bills/car loans/housing payments/etc. so really, there are all these people are seemingly well off, But really, how much "clear cash" would they be left with if they had to pay off everything they own. My family only has 1 loan left, and that's for a new car, which will be paid off ASAP.... The rest of my money goes into my pocket (not including monthly utility bills). No $2000+ credit card dept or anything like that. I consider to be more well off than these people who own expensive houses, drive outlandishly expensive cars, have 3 maxed credit cards, etc.... I believe wealth is a point of view..

As a young person in society, I was raised by watching my mother buy someone a $2 drink or a snack for someone she sees as in need. Or gives a mother and her children who were walking in the rain a ride to their apartment. Giving someone money is not the only thing that can be done when helping the helpless: and my mom is a good example of that.  
Now, my dad on the other hand is the complete opposite. He would plain out reject those who are in need and see them as a "burden to society". He pays taxes, he pays his own bills, he did it all by himself. Why should he help those who "aren't helping themselves"?  
Now, both my parents came from a poor childhood. And they worked their way to where they are now, but I can see both of their views on those who are in need. My mother is much more compassionate, while my dad (in his words) is an asshole.  
It's just their personality. As for me, I see both sides, yet I'm more compassionate like my mother. I also believe that the younger generation is a little bit more caring than those who are older. For example, my little brother who is 11 now, would give all his change when he was younger to Funds For Furry Friends. There was even a video circulating on Facebook to see if children would give their money to a homeless person or to buy themselves ice cream. A majority of them gave to the homeless.  
Younger generations think differently, it's a different time than those who are older are used to. Different social norms, different politics...things definitely have changed since their time as children: there was different problems, tougher times...etc.  
In the end I believe it all comes down to different times, age and just personality.  
Just my two cents.

You could be right that the younger generation are different. And while you see that they would give all their money to the homeless rather than buy an icecream as a wonderful attribute but in comparison I see it as a reckless abandonment for money. When I was a child for starters I didn't have any money and what money was gifted to me had to be saved up to buy a larger item for myself. Or I would not have gotten that larger item. Now though, if the child gave his money to help the homeless, the parent would just make sure that he got his icecream so he has no need to be "selfish" with his own money. His paents are meeting all his needs. It just seems that children are not being taught to set money aside for savings anymore which is why, as noted above, that the majority of North Americans are in so much debt...living paycheck to paycheck and massive debt.

I dont think the younger generation has claim to being more compassionate and generous, they dont have the life experience to see the world the same as the older generation plus many of the older generations filled in the gapes and still do by volunteer work, church organizations, food drives ect ect so to say one generation is more compassionate isnt really true.  
 
Personally while I am not shy about my views I am nice and compassionate when it comes to helping individuals , I have given certain renters a break, a bag of groceries ect, I have also given many many items away to individual needy people and I always try to be a positive influence for politeness and kindness when im out and about, making sure to talk to the stranger in the group and lots of other "good" deeds BUT i do see plenty of how the world works and I do see that most "right place, right time" cases were made not by luck but by determination and hard work, working flipping burgers 40 hrs a week and going home is not hard work, you get to forget about your work and have plenty of down time, People who really work hard never stop.  
 
also because our government went to a more socialist system many of the older generation quit or reduced the extra help because now they pay that help through their taxes, people might find that people got and gave a lot more when there wasn't a middle man but there is now and they do give a lot of our money away to these socialist programs, over the years tho what started out as a great thing to give people a safety net now isnt enough, people want the government to look after them more and more instead of realizing they can and should do it themselves  
 
the interesting thing is that even if you think im wrong about the differences in generations, how did the young get more compassionate? it was either being taught from the parents that are from the "older" generation or its being socialized into you through school programs that the government runs, think about that

so I can't give money away without thinking hard about it. I do like to share fresh garden produce, mainly tomatoes. However, when it come to shopping and I see a roast with the price tag of 35 bucks I have to leave it at the store and do without.  
 
My family comes first, I make sure we have food to eat and the necessities. If that makes me selfish then so be it!  
 
It's difficult to hear people crying poor mouth when they are holding a cell phone or a cig in their hands.

Yes they are. However it is the "have nots" expecting to get everything someone that works hard and lives within their means has acquired.  
 
You won't own a house if you didn't educate yourself to get a well enough paying job. And it is selfish to think you deserve a house when you don't have the income for it.  
 
You want all the luxury items and toys someone has purchased while still providing for their family. It is selfish to want a motorcycle/60 inch tv/designer clothes when you can't afford to feed your children.  
 
Just because someone is further financially along that you in life doesn't make them selfish.

Well said Garrett!  
 
Yes, I see people getting $700 tattoos, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, eating out, going for drinks, newest cell phone every 5 minutes, etc and then complaining they don't get paid enough to live well.  
 

Many of us have benefited from an inflationary economy, and as said in a comment that many people are just one pay check away from being broke, so what happens to everyone of we enter into a deflationary cycle. Looking around the economies of the world we are very close to that happening, and if it does,will people then realize that there has been a consolidation of wealth, many people do put on quite a show but they really aren't wealth. There is a problem of people always asking for more, right from the bottom on up, so we are all a part of the problem, and no one has the solution, but eventually the solution will look us on the face, and when it does will you be ready.

while you may be right about the economy i do wonder what is it that we think we need?  
 
i know from your comments that you have been around a while and im sure you have witnessed the cycles before but, except for the depression, is anyone in Canada really poor? I would say no, not even those on welfare

To answer your first question...anything we do not have.  
 
To comment on your next statement...whenever I feel like I don't have much (to comment on someone else's statement...our cell phones for us are just as much excess as practical need), I think of those before me who had "nothing" and those who appear to have nothing. Those who worked hard, went above and beyond for others, yet had "nothing". I also think of those who appear to have much and then consider what good things in their life that they may have chosen to sacrifice to get it (friends, family, reputation, financial freedom for enormous debt and so on). It really is not worth it.  
 
I know many who had nothing by most people's standards, and they were happy, had no debt...they were truly satisfied. Their focus was on others (and this does include wise decisions regarding family...as in not indulging them in excess), but not focus on self. They had family, loyal friends, respect of others, a roof and a means to grow or otherwise obtain food. Those are my personal heroes.  
 
I am not well off, but still have more "stuff" than many have. Look at the refugees migrating from Syria...only a bag or two to their name...or those living in earthquake devastated areas. I wish materialism and financial excess was not always pushed as the ideal by society. I can be ashamed some days when I consider how much excess I still see around me. I give when I see true need and have refused help if I felt that it could be better used for someone else.  
 
It is hard for people when others criticize and judge when you don't have things or an income up to their standards. There may be very legitimate reasons why a person cannot go back to school or land a better job. Maybe if you are in a position to help give constructive, supportive and friendly advice, physical help, time, mentor or more, maybe that is the opportunity for you to be someone's "lucky break" or hero too. Instead of criticizing and being selfish of your money, time, knowledge &/or skills, be a positive force.  
 
There are also those who do criticize what you DO have and say you need or deserve more. I have heard that. Hold on...do I really? Do I really need to think that selfishly? Yes, I would like this, yes, I would love that, but those comments sow discontentment, which is not good. I would rather be content with what I have than always be wanting.  
 
Others before me have done well with little. It really is not the money nor the things that make a person happy. I think that it is a very messed up world we live in when money and things are everything and then look down the nose at others who have less. All people play an important role.  
 
I kind of went off topic here, but those are my many related thoughts.  
 
Ah, and Don, I would expect no less of you for your views on selfishness. Thanks for your support.  
 
Edited by Flutterby, 2015-10-26 15:36:30

so you really think we should offer our support and compassion to people just for anything they want yet dont have? i want a jet to take me to the Caribbean every weekend..... even tho i want it it is far from a need and something I believe no one would work for me to have, its something if i want it i should get myself, im thinking by the rest of your post you would agree  
 
the thing about our system and society is that it is up to us what we find important and what is a "need" we think we need cells but that is far from the truth, we dont even need a phone to live, we need food clothes(not even nice ones) and shelter, really that is all we need, we don not need to even live alone or even have our own bedroom ect we in canada have more then enough we just have been taught to want more and more  
 
 
like your example many people with very little are content, they choose to spend time with their families and do charitable work ect, what ever makes them happy, that is their choice and for them they sacrifice the stuff for their other wants, nothing wrong with that at all  
 
same with their reasons for choosing not to go to school ect, there are some good reasons to choose not to but all are choices, dont kid yourself, I have learned that by helping and mentoring people, those types of help are the type i do support but over and over i hear excuses for the choices instead of contentment to say this is where i am because i do not want to make whatever sacrifice i would have to to change, a few do and they are the ones who know it can be done  
 
I would say tho that I am not judging people who choose not to work much or for a lower income because they want to be with their families, home weekends, home nights or dont want to get dirty ect, if they are happy where they are then good for them, lots with "more" are not BUUUT i do judge the same people, rich or poor, that figure they should have the "stuff" but shouldn't have to make the sacrifices or choices to get it, those people who want the government to pay for that stuff and figure everyone deserves to be the same financially are really stealing from the people that decided it was worth it to sacrifice family time or get dirty ect, that is what is wrong with our society imo  
 
I like the fact we have choice and i get to choose what i find important, i think everyone should get that choice no one should judge people for their choices but i think everyone should learn to be content with their choices

"so you really think we should offer our support and compassion to people just for anything they want yet dont have?"  
 
My answer...certainly a definite no. I would not expect to receive that either. I do think that support should be given to those who truly do want to work hard to get somewhere, not necessarily because they want to walk all over someone, and not to the ones who do sit and have no drive and expect everyone to cater to them. Sometimes too, all people need is some encouragement and someone to believe in them, to give them a chance. Sometimes people are always hitting brick walls...those are the types of folks I am talking about. If there is a need...not a want...and someone has the means to be kind...that is the point.  
 
A need is what you truly need to live...the basics. Shelter, real food, clothing, warmth and personal support/encouragement...and enough to support basic bills (again...not cable, but heat and such), and enough to cover these needs should an emergency arise. I understand the concept gets skewed as people have more. They forget what needs are and the wants start to be incorrectly viewed as needs. They can also forget how to live simply.  
 
Truly to live, yes one dies not need a phone, but when you are in the country far from neighbors, it can be what saves a life.  
 
"I would say tho that I am not judging people who choose not to work much or for a lower income because they want to be with their families, home weekends, home nights or dont want to get dirty ect, if they are happy where they are then good for them, lots with "more" are not BUUUT i do judge the same people, rich or poor, that figure they should have the "stuff" but shouldn't have to make the sacrifices or choices to get it, those people who want the government to pay for that stuff and figure everyone deserves to be the same financially are really stealing from the people that decided it was worth it to sacrifice family time or get dirty ect, that is what is wrong with our society imo  
   
I like the fact we have choice and i get to choose what i find important, i think everyone should get that choice no one should judge people for their choices but i think everyone should learn to be content with their choices"  
 
Heartily agree! :D

You can amass as much as you want in this life, but you can't you can't take any of it with you. People won't remember you for what you had or owned or the work you did. You will however be remembered for what you gave. Of yourself, your resources or your time. I believe the purpose of life and the measure of a persons true character is how much you helped those less fortunate, you are, in fact, your brothers keeper. You can make your own choices, they are yours to make, you can keep everything you earn, you can make any excuse or give any reason, but in the end there is only one true, real honest resin for those choices and decisions. I says nothing about the people the need help, it says everything about you. There is nothing anyone can say that will keep me from reaching out to those less fortunate, I work hard, I feed my family, I enjoy life AND I will always have something to contribute to the less fortunate. AND no I am not a religious fanatic, or a good two shoes, just someone who knows what I have to do to be human and humane. Oh, and the contributing member of society? Re-think that, your version does sound selfish

There are so many gray areas on this topic. I have a healthy 30 year old friend. He's too lazy go out and find work, so he sits at home and collects unemployment. Given any opportunity he will start lengthy arguments about the economy, government etc. He doesn't realize that he's part of the problem!  
 
On the other hand I have a friend (single mother of 3) who can barely walk, who's so ashamed of having to rely on the government for assistance.  
 
I don't believe there is an answer to your question(s). In society you will always have givers and takers ... As good citizens we should just try and make sure we do our part.  
 
I myself don't have a lot of money. I'm a University student and can barely afford to stay afloat myself. I don't have money to offer, but instead I offer my time and services. I volunteer wherever I can. I have to tell myself that's enough. It's all I can do.

Why is it ok to lump all wealthy people together and say that if someone has money they are either born to it or lucked into it but if someone says that people are poor because they are lazy it's a crime?  
 
My attitude about charity is not selfish, it is pragmatic. If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him to fish you feed him for life.  
 
Those that strive for more and are willing to work hard to get their needs AND wants met will always have a hand up from me in the form of anything but money because that isn't what they need, they need training, education, advice, support even a break for a new job, not a $20 bill. Those that only want a hand out and feel entitled to what I work hard for through guilt trips and plays on sympathy will stay where they are always because they are defeating themselves and no amount of money will change that.  
 
You don't fix money problems with money.If you live beyond your means and rack up debt, having someone pay off your debt will not fix you because without learning to do different you will end up right back where you were before.  
 
Often what people accuse others for selfish acts aren't really, they just don't see that they are getting what they need instead of what they want and that is where true help lies.

Flutterby= with our lifestyle the phone would defiantly be the last thing to go for me, i agree that its does help with safety concerns, but compared to other places in the world where they live on much much less, where the choice isnt even between a phone or cable, its not even between, meat or clothes, some peoples choices are between rice or beans in the extreme so my point is we are truly blessed here in canada, even those on welfare living off kraft dinner and envying others who have more, do have more then most of the world (i worked with a refugee the other day, the stories and his outlook were amazing and defiantly something to learn from)  
 
but im not saying any of us want to live like our pioneers or struggle, with our perception we do find having less then others hard, especially with the judgment some people give out, but imo most everyone in canada does have their basic needs meet so wanting more and more from the government, which equals the taxpayer, does seem selfish  
 
anyway just my opinion on the matter, which basically boils down to perception is everything  
------------------------  
 
BF- i agree, its completely a double standard to put all "rich" people in one bucket but not be allowed to do the same for the poor, the thing is, i do believe a small small few did basically win the lotto with the family they were born into but what most people are begrudging are not the supper rich, they are the middle class, the ones that do really pay the majority of the taxes and the ones who have worked their butts off for everything they have, and like you and me the ones who are most vocal about the fact that others can change their lot in life are ones who have so they know it can be done  
 
I also agree about teaching and inspiring people to work for what they want, if someone is giving all their effort i would have no issues helping them out

they are

In my opinion the op nails it

In my opinion the op nails it