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Merge here, take turns

Merge here, take turns

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

Human phycology
12/10/2015 at 1:06 PM

After sitting in line in the left lane from Victoria avenue, there's a whole lot of people that figure they have an investment of time in the process of getting across 18th street bridge, and the are not going to let someone in. If you doubt this, just look at the dirty looks you get as you pass them by while travelling in the right lane.

Getty
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1536

Getty

Joined: Aug 2008

Posts: 1536

bad driving

12/10/2015 at 1:22 PM

don brown said "After sitting in line in the left lane from Victoria avenue, there's a whole lot of people that figure they have an investment of time in the process of getting across 18th street bridge, and the are not going to let someone in. If you doubt this, just look at the dirty looks you get as you pass them by while travelling in the right lane. "

eyes should be on the road, not on reactions of other ppl!

traveller
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9145

traveller

Joined: Jun 2007

Posts: 9145

12/10/2015 at 2:18 PM

Getty said "

don brown said "After sitting in line in the left lane from Victoria avenue, there's a whole lot of people that figure they have an investment of time in the process of getting across 18th street bridge, and the are not going to let someone in. If you doubt this, just look at the dirty looks you get as you pass them by while travelling in the right lane. "

eyes should be on the road, not on reactions of other ppl! "

Eyes should actually not be glued to the road, they should be constantly scanning including making eye contact with other drivers to make sure you know their intentions which would be used in a slower merging situation like by the bridge

Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Notice
12/10/2015 at 2:23 PM

Notice put out by the city this afternoon is pasted below along with link to the original version. Note the part about optimizations that are planned at the intersection with Rosser and Princess to improve North-South flow:

----
Traffic Flow Changes Being Implemented on 18th Street

December 10, 2015

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Brandon, MB – The City of Brandon's Engineering Department wishes to advise the motoring public of a number of traffic flow changes being implemented on 18th Street south of the Daly Overpass.

With cooperation from Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation, a “taking turns” merging process has now been implemented for northbound traffic approaching the Daly Overpass. As such, a variable message sign has been put in place in the area of Louise Avenue reading “Merge Ahead – Use Both Lanes”, while another placed further north at Rosser Avenue reads, “Merge Here – Take Turns”.

The goal of using this type of merging process is to reduce the length of the northbound traffic queue waiting to access the Daly Overpass and also to encourage similar speeds in both lanes at the merge point for safety. Motorists are reminded to merge only when it is safe to do so.

In the new year, pedestrian-activated push buttons will be installed for the east-west corridors on both Rosser and Princess Avenues. With this change, north-south traffic flow should see less interruption when no pedestrians are waiting to cross at the intersection. Also anticipated in 2016 will be the installation of underground detection loops at the intersections of Princess Avenue and Rosser Avenue, which will work to sense traffic and optimize signal timing based on demand.

The City of Brandon and Province of Manitoba appreciate the public’s cooperation and patience as these changes are made to improve traffic flow along this busy stretch of roadway.

--------

http://www.brandon.ca/public-notices-details?var=230

Edited by Adam, 2015-12-10 14:34:03
don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

Not really
12/10/2015 at 2:25 PM

I Think driving is sort of like flying a small plane, you look right,left,ahead, and make sure that you know what's coming from every direction. When ever I come home from driving on Brandon I usually have a sore neck, I think looking straight ahead will get you on trouble, and looking at drivers sometimes gives you an indication of whether they may be thinking of making a lane change.
don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

traveller
12/10/2015 at 2:33 PM

You posted what I was thinking or getting ready to write, what is that.saying, oh "great minds think alike", I know there's a second part to the saying but we'll just skip that part.
123Brandon
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 107

123Brandon
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 107

You're forgetting...
12/10/2015 at 4:13 PM

In response to those arguing that merging actually slows things down and one single lane is the way to go... the issue is the lights. When everyone lines up in one lane, they inevitably get slowed down as the lights turn green an no one can move, so it goes at a snail's pace.

The traffic trying to get in from Princess (turning north off of Princess) is also held up by this as they can't squeeze into the proper lane to get over the bridge. And if you're behind someone who needs in that lane to get over the overpass and you just want to turn North, you get really annoyed that they can't just turn right into the available lane that's empty for fear of not getting let in.

This method gets more cars through the lights, so should be faster. The zipper merge is a great idea, in my opinion. Also changing the northbound/southbound lanes on the bridge depending on the time of day by clearly marked lights would be an excellent idea until we can get a 4 lane overpass. Just an investment in some overhead lights.

Edited by MacBook, 2015-12-10 16:14:09
Tink1234
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 204

Tink1234
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 204

Road Rage
12/10/2015 at 4:19 PM

I really never gave this merge thing a thought: I would let people in as a courtesy. However, I was in the backseat with my infant daughter and my mom's husband was driving my car to the Corral Centre. He put his blinker on, waited until there was a large space and it was safe to merge and continued to do so. The vehicle behind us began honking and once there were 2 lanes again he sped past giving the finger. He proceeded to follow us. He pulled up behind us when we were dropped off at the doors then followed my mom's husband to his parking spot but continued on. Possibly he saw me getting a car seat out and continued on rather than confronting us. I understand that people believe they have the right of way but my mom's husband isn't from Brandon and didn't realize he had to merge yet he did so when there was a big enough space to do so AND used his blinker. Some people in this world have become so entitled and selfish.

Edited by wishwash15, 2015-12-10 16:21:16
lovetooshop
Joined: This month
Posts: 175

lovetooshop
Joined: This month
Posts: 175

Who would be at fault.....
12/10/2015 at 4:42 PM

if the car merging got hit by car travelling in the left lane?? Just curious.
(I always let car merge in front of me but have been honked at and saluted)
aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

aBUFAmember
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 162

pros and cons
12/10/2015 at 9:31 PM

Let's be clear. There is a purpose for zipper merging. This just isn't the right place for it. It's not a 'Brandon' thing, it's the specifics of this situation. The zipper merge, as already said, may make movement safer if EVERYONE follows it, but it doesn't move cars through faster. Imagine a zipper (I know, don't need to say it): If all the cars in both lanes were spaced safely for normal traffic flow, then the spaces between would be sufficient for cars to merge - like a zipper. BUT just like a zipper, to maintain safe following distance, everyone in the new single lane would have to slow a bit to open up safe following distance again. Just like how the teeth on a zipper are all very close together after the zipper is closed...

As someone said, this works when traffic is already moving slower approaching the merge (so distances can be closer) then speeds up after the merge, so vehicles naturally space out a little as flow gets going. But in this situation, everyone is either already going at normal traffic speed (if the Rosser light is green) or accelerating from the light at Rosser AND merging at the same time. Then slowing down to keep safe following distance. Sure, it will work, but it categorically will not get more vehicles over the bridge any faster. As someone said, 20 cars in one lane would go over in about the same time as 10 cars each merging from 2 lanes. Delay for lights notwithstanding. So as the City press release says, all they're addressing is queue length, not overall volume or rate of throughput.

Oh, and to whoever asked if I'm a traffic engineer - no, but the City is full of examples of bad traffic management that does not improve efficiency of flow. The eastbound lane designation on Rosser at 18th can only have one possible outcome: some cars have to wait at the light longer than necessary. No flow is improved with the current lane designation. Left turning traffic could not possibly be in conflict with oncoming traffic because east of 18th is one way. So nobody going straight could possibly be delayed by left turning traffic in front of them. But right turning traffic might get stuck behind straight through traffic waiting at the red, even if the southbound lane of 18th is clear. So for reasons like this, I suggest that our traffic gurus could do better. 2 lanes northbound and 1 southbound for Daly Bridge would go a very long way to reducing the problem we all recognize here - whatever we think of zipper merging.
phoenix
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 412

phoenix
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 412

left lane merging on 18th
12/11/2015 at 7:12 AM

If people know that they are going to do business on the north hill why do people drive in the right lane until they get to Rosser then have to make a lane change. Get smart and think ahead and get in the proper lane first so as not to hold traffic up. I for one will not let anyone in. think ahead.

JackAzz
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1436

JackAzz

Joined: Jul 2008

Posts: 1436

And this

12/11/2015 at 8:23 AM

phoenix said "If people know that they are going to do business on the north hill why do people drive in the right lane until they get to Rosser then have to make a lane change. Get smart and think ahead and get in the proper lane first so as not to hold traffic up. I for one will not let anyone in. think ahead. "

Is why it won't work. Too many stubborn people.

GuyUeland

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2

GuyUeland
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2

Avoid 18th street
12/11/2015 at 9:50 AM

Adding the zipper merge to 18th street bridge near Rosser is going to make it even worse, with the drivers around here. I would just avoid going south of the bridge via 18th street totally. I am from Ontario, and it seems that drivers never signal to turn, switch lanes. You have to be a psychic to know when turning cars are going to happen around here.

Edited by GuyUeland, 2015-12-11 09:52:00
derpl
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 25

derpl
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 25

Keep fighting...
12/11/2015 at 10:12 AM

I'll keep taking 13th to pacific and I'm over the bridge with a max wait of 15 seconds. This is just another example of how Gen X poor planning is detrimental to our day to day.
lovetooshop
Joined: This month
Posts: 175

lovetooshop
Joined: This month
Posts: 175

Sure wish
12/11/2015 at 12:17 PM

we still had 8th St bridge.
Jeeper
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 352

Jeeper
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 352

...
12/11/2015 at 12:23 PM

I'm sure once this comes in to effect it's going to be faster to take 1A then grand valley or 110 and come out by the jail...
fdsafdsa
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 108

fdsafdsa
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 108

Wish I worked for the engineering in this province
12/11/2015 at 4:02 PM

Oh of course this whole time nobody released a sign could fix the problem how daft of everyone.

The truth is this quick fix should be piloted and the province should release data to the public that substatiates there claim of improved efficiency. Fact is they won't and this is a back of the napkin quick fix that really has no substance at all.

Let's spend the money hire a third party firm and get a real solution instead of using the sloth like engineering by the province and city.
ultraguy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1096

ultraguy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1096

.
12/11/2015 at 4:16 PM

Where did the province claim anything about improved efficiency? It's to reduce the queue length and improve safety.

It was piloted in Winnipeg during the summer, it was relatively successful.

Edited by ultraguy, 2015-12-11 16:17:21
ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

ronfay
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 654

No change
12/11/2015 at 4:38 PM

to my driving. I will continue to drive in the right lane past Rosser, and then merge over. There is always a big gap there, so I don't cut anyone off (how do you cut someone off if you're going faster than them and you're passing them?). If, in the 5% of the times there is no gap, I turn onto Pacific, turn around in a parking lot, and re-enter 18th at the merge off Pacific and still be ahead. It never takes me longer than 10 minutes to get from Canadian Tire to the North Hill.
rum
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 188

rum
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 188

Yes it would increase traffic flow
12/11/2015 at 5:36 PM

Yes it would increase traffic flow if used according to what the signage says. Here is why: If people would merge where it says merge here than at least 3 additional cars would be in the right lane after the rossar lights once it turns red. That means it lets a least 3 additional cars through.
2nd proper merging wouldn't make it take twice as long but only slow down the left side by about a
3rd. that probably adds another 2 plus cars per light change. 3rd it's better for your wallet. A more constant flow means a lower fuel consumption and lower greenhouse emissions.
4th If people were to show each other common courtesy while using that stretch of the road, It would improve everyone's mood.

However there is a better fix. How? by making it possible for the bridge to always be loaded on the side with one lane traffic. Currently the Red lights make sure there are gaps where no one uses the bridge. In reality it is not the one lane that creates the slower traffic but the lights which prevent the bridge to be loaded at all time.
How to fix: 2 lanes northbound, one lane southbound with must zipper merge signage in place.
Why is it fixed:
1St.it ensures that the one lane is used for a minimum distance necessary, not 209 blocks ahead of time.
2nd less lights before the merge creating a more constant flow over the bridge and a more continuous loading of the bridge and
3rd first light after the bridge they are already back to 2 lanes maximizing flow through the lights

Downside emergency vehicles Maybe
plane watcher
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 209

plane watcher
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 209

LOL
12/11/2015 at 5:46 PM

As a driver who's always resented those 'cut-in-liners' from the right lane, I welcome the Province's effort to make things easier for all ( lol ). If it works, half of north bound drivers will aggregate to the right lane, waiting their turn to merge, zippered or not. The 'cut-in liners' (in the right lane) will be cut out of their advantage and actually have to wait in line for their turn to merge. The end result, as someone above has mentioned, is an overall slowdown.

Zipper merge is not a correct description in this case. My experience with what might be called zipper merge on the US freeway system and implies two streams of traffic moving at more or less the same speed and merging. Usually at 120 km per hr. A bit like leaving PlaP to the west and onto the TCH, only with real traffic.

And why is the Province rehabilitating the first street bridge before improving the HWY 10 bridge?
Kida

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

Kida
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 470

Here's the big question......
12/12/2015 at 3:36 AM

Will somebody let you in??? I find Brandon to not be merge friendly. People say Winnipeg drivers are crazy but at least they let you change lanes right away and not leaving you there for 5 min waiting for somebody to let you in or a red light and no one turning....
Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

Johnbisonbear
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4183

so....
12/12/2015 at 8:16 AM

has anyone checked out the new merging? How did it go?
don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

don brown
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4956

Might actually work
12/12/2015 at 8:28 AM

Even if people refuse to let people merge it might still get a few more vehicles through, if the right lane fills up right back to Rosser and through the intersection, that traffic will proceed on the yellow light, might affect traffic coming in from the west but not with a big impact. Many people will still look at taking the right lane as being the slower lane especially if people don't go with the merge idea.
DebW
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 633

DebW
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 633

Merge worked
12/12/2015 at 10:21 AM

Johnbisonbear said "has anyone checked out the new merging? How did it go? "

I merged yesterday and it was fine. Have to admit it is the not the first time I went down the right lane and merged, just finally have a sign to let other drivers know that it is completely legal to do so!
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Merge
12/12/2015 at 1:50 PM

Before the change this week I'd describe myself as someone who would always take the left lane and maybe even curse the no goodnick that would change out of the left lane, rip ahead in the right lane and "cut" in further ahead. In the name of science and keeping an open mind to what they're trying to accomplish here, I've been through the area three times today as a Lefty in Righty's clothing. A few observations...

Pass 1: Stopped at red light at 18th & Rosser, going northbound. Was the second vehicle lined up at the right side out of four. Left lane lined up quite a bit further back. At the change of the light it took one left-lane car going out of their way to slow to a crawl to let multiple vehicles in

Pass 2: Again at red light. Third car out of three on the right-side. Light turns and all three of us like magic merge in beautifully, alternating with left lane vehicles as if we were all parachuted in from big city USA. No visible slow downs to make it happen and everyone is on their way. For this change to be successful, this experience would have to become more common.

Pass 3: Again at red light. Was the only single car in the right lane. Left lane appeared to be backed up all the way to about Victoria. Lead car in the left lane clearly guns it (admittedly something I would've considered myself under the same circumstances before the sign). It's all good because he created a big enough gap that I could merge in without any thought or change to how I would've driven if he wasnt there. Twitch of guilt kicks in inspired by the Lefty in me. Remind self "this is what they want us to do."

Random observations:
- very clearly in the early going this isn't something that's happening overnight the way they would like it do. Way too soon to pass too serious of judgement, but if I wasn't in the right lane I'm not sure that the split of cars between left and right lane would've been any different than before the sign.
- further to the above, very possible that in lieu of road conditions the odd person is deciding that this isn't the best time to try something new. That to me is the more unfortunate thing about all of this.... the timing couldn't have turned out worse as far as these dumpings of freezing rain/snow
- as before, all sorts of cars in the Right lane between Princess and Victoria finding a way to change into the Left lane sooner.
- if saving a few minutes matters to you, without question there was a huge benefit in the amount of time to get through and over the bridge even in the most awkward of the three passes. That said if this balances the way they're hoping (closer to even split of cars between left and right lane) I don't imagine that that benefit would be there so much as there would be less backup toward Victoria Ave and beyond.
- as others have mentioned, the amount of time spent at red lights is a big constraint. Glad to see that there are plans to tweak the intersection in the new year to improve the amount of green light time that cars can flow

All in all I think I'll keep sticking with the right lane for now and see how things keep going. Yeah its just a sign but to me it legitimizes the idea of using the right lane when it seems like part of the issue is that it just felt like the wrong thing to do. If the sign comes down or it looks like after a month or two there's still no change to wider adoption I'll probably go back to my Lefty ways.

What are other folks' observations in going through over the past few days?
Edited by Adam, 2015-12-12 14:43:28
katwalk1909
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7097

katwalk1909
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7097

Improvement
12/13/2015 at 7:51 AM

I have taken the right lane a few times more to teach the drivers in the left line so the will follow the efficient plan the next time they travel that route. I used my signal with plenty of time (starting as I pass through Rosser intersection) and gave a thank you wave as the white car let me in.

I have noticed a significant decrease in the number of vehicles waiting for the lights at Princess. The reason becomes obvious because twice as many get through Princess and Rosser than before. Even at peak times during the first week, the number unable to cross Princess in one light was only one or two. This was MY peak times maybe, but I am comparing it to similar times from a month ago.

One other advantage is that BU classes are finished and the students are into exams. This may reduce the amount of traffic around that area.
yourwelcome
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 68

yourwelcome
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 68

May I
12/22/2015 at 12:30 AM

Add? Once you've merged or allowed someone to merge (yikes! Oh the horror lol) CAN you PLEASE KEEP TRAFFIC MOVING ALONG SWIFTLY AT THE FOOT OF BRIDGE?? My god

PICK A DAMN LANE AND MOVE PPL! This isn't your first day (hopefully)
Reston
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 437

Reston
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 437

expect
12/22/2015 at 8:52 PM

it to be getting even worse now that they put a no turn sign onto pacific on first street - now lot more people will use 18th street
superior_knight
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6

superior_knight
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6

if it's busy.
12/23/2015 at 7:46 AM

If it's busy I'll get into the right lane head down to the light if it's red turn down the one way right into the parking lot then back out across the bridge while people are waiting at the light